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CK CK 14. syyskuuta 2018, muokattu 31. lokakuuta 2019 14. syyskuuta 2018 klo 2.01.09 UTC, muokattu 31. lokakuuta 2019 klo 3.18.32 UTC link Ikilinkki

[not needed anymore- removed by CK]

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soliloquist soliloquist 14. syyskuuta 2018 14. syyskuuta 2018 klo 22.33.54 UTC link Ikilinkki

What's the point of separating Berber and Kabyle, if most of the Berber sentences are also Kabyle?

Algeria was under Ottoman rule for centuries, but in Turkish, we don't even have a word for Kabyle. We simply use Berber(Berberice).

I mean no offense, I'm just curious.

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Aiji Aiji 15. syyskuuta 2018 15. syyskuuta 2018 klo 11.26.45 UTC link Ikilinkki

You may want to refer to that post https://tatoeba.org/fra/wall/show_message/29440 for a start.

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soliloquist soliloquist 15. syyskuuta 2018 15. syyskuuta 2018 klo 20.49.36 UTC link Ikilinkki

Thanks.

So, Berber is an umbrella term for a group of closely related languages (or dialects?), not a specific and distinct language.

If that's the case, I think it's better to let them have their own corpuses, just like some mutually intelligible languages (Bosnian, Serbian and Croatian) of former Yugoslavia. However, in this case, the existence of a separate Berber corpus becomes questionable.

Possibly the debate also has some underlying political dimensions that are not easy to resolve.

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Amastan Amastan 16. syyskuuta 2018 16. syyskuuta 2018 klo 6.50.11 UTC link Ikilinkki

Most Berber language activists believe in the unity of the Berber language that they call "Tamazight." The North African governments that recognize Berber (Tamazight) as an official language (Morocco and Algeria) refer to the language as Tamazight (Berber) and don't talk about promoting "Kabyle" or "Shawi" or "Mozabite" or "Tuareg" or "Riffian" separately. Mouloud Mammeri, the father of the Berber-language revival (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouloud_Mammeri) talked about the Berber language, studied its various dialects (mainly poetry of the Zenata dialect of the Timimoun region, Adrar, southern Algeria; Tuareg dialect; Kabyle dialect).

And as I said, one cannot deny the undeniable: there is mutual intelligibility between all the dialects spoken (at least) from southern Tunisia in the east to northern Morocco in the west of North Africa, and this includes roughly southern Tunisian dialects, Shawi, Tasahlit, Kabyle, the Blida Atlas dialect, the Chenoua dialect, the Beni Snous dialect (area of Tlemcen, western Algeria), Riffian (northern Morocco) + many northern Saharan dialects (dialect of Ouargla, Mozabite [of the Ghardaia area], Boussemghoun, Asla, the dialects of the Bechar area and the Zenata dialect spoken in the oases of Timimoun). There is mutual intelligibility between all these dialects and this language continuum can't be denied by any linguist.

Now and because some people want some ready solutions for technical reasons, they have decided to consider their dialects as "separate languages." I am not one of those people. Berber (or Tamazight as its speakers prefer to call it) still doesn't have an ISO code of its own. Morocco created the code "zgh" but it's only for what is commonly referred to as "Standard Moroccan Berber" in Morocco

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S...oroccan_Berber

But with the creation of the Algerian Academy of the Amazigh Language (it has been created this year), one of the first things the members of this academy would do is the request for an ISO code for the Amazigh language (at least an Algerian Amazigh language) and this would be the suitable code for my sentences and the sentences of my fellow Algerian Amazigh speakers, I think. So we better wait for that rather than just taking more than 100k sentences and attributing them to a regional dialect that's just part of a much bigger linguistic continuum in the vastness of North Africa.

Of course, there are political dimensions to this issue, too. Some people are supporting a radical separatist movement that's more or less openly hostile to the idea of pan-Amazighism and openly questions the unity of the Amazigh language. I am not here to do politics but I prefer not to have anything to do whether directly or indirectly with this linguistic and political separatist problem that I openly and directly oppose.

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soliloquist soliloquist 16. syyskuuta 2018 16. syyskuuta 2018 klo 11.54.29 UTC link Ikilinkki

Thank you for your detailed explanation.

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Amastan Amastan 19. syyskuuta 2018 19. syyskuuta 2018 klo 14.19.29 UTC link Ikilinkki

You're welcome.

I'd love to add the following:

Algeria always claims that the government recognized Tamazight (Berber) as an official language to reinforce national unity and promote cohesion among the Algerian people. There is no interest in promoting regional dialects into separate regional languages at a moment when there is still mutual intelligibility among North African Amazigh speakers.

We are just beginning to discover our origins, our native dialects and how wonderfully close they are to each other and we are doing this through cultural and linguistic exchange. We are not building walls between us as our fiercest opponents (Amazigh-language haters and some religious extremists and ideologues want).

Back in the 1970's and up until the 1990's (and even today) it was the fiercest enemies of Amazigh identity and language that used to claim that Amazighs don't speak the same language, therefore, promoting such a set of "separate languages" is completely pointless. Today we have some activists (and young and inexperienced youth who know very little about the history of the Amazigh language movement) that are claiming this. Yet these activists don't represent the majority of the Amazigh-language cultural movement who massively adhere to the deep unity of the Amazigh language. Anyway, the unity of the northern dialects is totally unquestionable and only dishonest political liars would continue to try to fool online.

As the Amazigh saying from Kabylie goes: Yiwen n wass kan ay iqeḍḍu ukeddab (A liar can only shop and fool people once).

samir_t samir_t 16. syyskuuta 2018, muokattu 16. syyskuuta 2018 16. syyskuuta 2018 klo 14.03.12 UTC, muokattu 16. syyskuuta 2018 klo 14.06.27 UTC link Ikilinkki

There is no intelligibility between the Berber languages. In any case, if we take for example the two most spoken languages, the kabyle in Algeria, and the shilha in Morocco, they are perhaps more different than is the German of the Dutch or the Italian of Spanish. A Kabyle does not understand a single word of a shilha song and vice versa, whatever they say. The Kabyle peoples of the north never understand the Berbers of southern in Algeria, the Touaregs, shilha Moroccoin do not understand with the Riffian of northern Morocco.
Those who speak of a unique Amazigh language are only in the dream, since nothing unites them except an old vocabulary and similarities of grammar here and there. We saw them modify the rules of kabyle language (on Berber - Tatoeba) to adapt it with other Berber languages but it does not work. Kabyle is a language in itself. Afterwards, the political discourse or the aspirations of each other are something else.

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Amastan Amastan 16. syyskuuta 2018 16. syyskuuta 2018 klo 15.30.00 UTC link Ikilinkki

samir_t

You should read my message again and perhaps even review your North African geography. I didn't mention Tashelhit in my previous message when I talked about the language continuum that spreads -from east to west- from southern Tunisia to northern Morocco.

***There is no intelligibility between the Berber languages.***

I find this insane. You are denying a fact that millions of Algerians and Moroccans know is true.

Only a liar or a politician (almost a synonym of the previous word) would stubbornly deny facts (call it science or witchcraft, it's up to you), but here is a fact that the language separatists will continue to deny even if it's fact (a synonym of "truth"):

Oh, but wait a minute: In politics, whenever fact/truth doesn't serve the interests of the politician, it's suddenly denied. But let's continue:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPjJCaB_s3o&t=600s

This is Mohamed Zerdoumi's TV 4 show called "Tafat n Ussirem". For those who don't know, TV 4 is an Algerian Amazigh-speaking public channel. Mohamed Zerdoumi, the host, speaks an Amazigh dialect called Shawi, and his two guests speak the Kabyle Amazigh dialect. They speak the same language and understand each other. And needless to say that their audience, composed of millions of Algerian Amazigh speakers (including myself, my wife, and my mother) understand them when they talk.

This is another episode of Zerdoumi's show where there are only Shawi-speaking guests:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v...X_Fud0&t=1500s

I regularly watch this program with my wife (a Kabyle speaker) and my mother (a Kabyle monolingual person) and we understand everything they say.

And now only a dishonest person would deny that they don't understand this Amazigh speaker from Chlef, an area located something like 400 kilometers west of Kabylie:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dn4hWF-8OY0&t=20s

So my advice is that you don't spread false information about facts. If you want to promote your linguistic separatism do it in silence and in your own circles and let others continue with their enormous enterprises that they have started generations before your movement was born and would continue for generations after you are gone.














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samir_t samir_t 16. syyskuuta 2018, muokattu 16. syyskuuta 2018 16. syyskuuta 2018 klo 16.24.32 UTC, muokattu 16. syyskuuta 2018 klo 16.27.51 UTC link Ikilinkki

You may not have talked about Tachelhit, but for me I can not talk about Berber languages without thinking about tashelhit that has the greatest number of speakers in North Africa. The borders between Algeria and Morocco can not deny historical realities, I do not content myself with a certain linguistic proximity of Kabyle with Chaoui language or chenwa one, which are separated geographically only recently, one to the east and the other to the west. If governments do not talk about preferring a "variety" but only tamazight in general, it is of course political. On the one hand to leave Berber languages behind and on the other to ignore any indentary reality in these countries. You probably know that Ouyahia said that we first have to invent a unifying language before generalizing the famous Tamazight, that says a lot.
You know our master to all Mouloud Mammeri who does his grammar, he made it clear that it was the "Kabyle dialect" in the cover of the book, because he knew that huge differences exist with other Berber languages..
I have nothing against my Berber cousins, I do not militate in any political movement, but a scientific reality must be recognized and defended. I am an author, but I can not say that I write in Tamazight when I know that only the Kabyle people will read what I write. I will not lie to myself, and I will not take my dreams of an Amazigh linguistic unity for a reality.

Fraternally.

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Amastan Amastan 19. syyskuuta 2018 19. syyskuuta 2018 klo 15.14.36 UTC link Ikilinkki

@samir_t

What you have written here is interesting and I would like to analyze it bit by bit:

You said: "You may not have talked about Tachelhit, but for me I can not talk about Berber languages without thinking about tashelhit"

The problem here is the following: when people are having a political argument, they would only give the most extreme examples to justify their extremist views. Whenever someone wants to question the unity of the Amazigh language, they would directly point to the Tuareg dialect which is, actually, one of the most difficult dialects to understand for the speakers of Northern Amazigh dialects. I honestly find this irrelevant. And regarding Tashelhit: although it's the Amazigh dialect that has the biggest number of speakers in North Africa, I already mentioned the fact that many, many Tashelhit speakers understand the Kabyle dialect and listen to the greatest Kabyle singers. Therefore, even if we don't understand their dialect, there is still a possibility that some day, we, as a big Amazigh-speaking community of North Africa, would develop a unified dialect, maybe based on Kabyle and the Algerian Zenata dialects, that all the speakers of all the dialects would understand, and this is already in the making. You can see it through the dozens of hours of TV shows where Shawis from the Aures are hosted by Kabyle TV hosts and vice versa.

I find this insistence upon a "solution-here-and-now" to be preposterous. People need to work, produce, exchange and discuss and that would need years, if not decades to become a reality. Regional dialects would never disappear while North Africans would have a standard language they would use for standard communication and science.

You also said: "I do not content myself with a certain linguistic proximity of Kabyle with Chaoui language or chenwa one which are separated geographically only recently,"

Then you should also reject the differences between the dialect of your own little tiny minuscule village and my own little minuscule village as well, I think. Some sub-dialects in the Chenoua region are closer to the Bejaia Kabyle than the Tizi-Ouzou Kabyle that people speak in my own little tiny microscopic village. One of the things I hate and despise in many people from our area is their utter contempt that we are more and more developing to anything that's Amazigh but outside of our area. This is a primitive form of contempt that translates our cultural regression in the latter years and it's within the framework of that contempt that I place this separatist and racist movement that's defending this so-called "language."

You said: "to ignore any indentary reality in these countries."

Your identity (which is also mine as long as it is Algerian and Amazigh) isn't being ignored. Lots of things still need to be done, but I consider the recognition of the Amazigh language as an official language in Algeria, the creation of an Algerian Academy of the Amazigh language and the recognition of the Amazigh traditional year (Yennayer) as an official holiday in modern Algeria are all clear and unambiguous signs that our identity and culture are being recognized just as they deserve to be recognized. Soon the Academy will start producing resources that even your companions who support this so-called language would begin to use, and you know why? It's because they produce nothing. Linguistics-wise, they are all talk and no action, just as those Amazigh-language haters that want us to write the Amazigh language in the Arabic script but they never did any scientific research or language planning efforts to make this possible.

You said: "You probably know that Ouyahia said that we first have to invent a unifying language before generalizing the famous Tamazight,"

There is nothing to be invented. Ouyahia is a politician and all politicians "invent" things. Specialists aren't talking about "inventions." They are talking about exchange and massive production (including movies, TV shows, plays, etc.) that would lead the most spoken dialects to progressively converge towards a unified language. How this language would be, I'm not sure. I'm not an oracle. However, things need time, and let's just work and wait and hope for the best. We shouldn't insist on a "solution-here-and-now" because this would lead us nowhere.

You said: "You know our master to all Mouloud Mammeri who does his grammar,"

He wrote the grammar to teach it to his students who were Kabyles. I was an English teacher myself. If I were in the USA, then I would probably teach my students American English. If I were in the UK, then I would teach them British English. There is nothing strange about that. Some day, and why now, the Kabyle dialect could become the basis of this standard language and there is nothing wrong with that, but we still consider our language as one, and Mammeri too used to talk about *an Amazigh language* and *a Kabyle dialect/Shawi dialect/Riffian dialect, etc.

Another particularity of the separatist movement of Kabylie is the usurpation of Kabylie's Amazigh cultural figures and symbols. Figures like Mammeri and Matoub (may they rest in peace) belong to all Kabyles, including those who are against the racist separatist movement. They also belong to all Algerians (Mammeri's 100th anniversary was recently celebrated for a whole year in Algeria, Matoub's assassination was also celebrated by local official authorities), and needless to say that they belong to all of North Africa's Amazigh speakers: both of them are celebrated figures in Morocco, Algeria, and Libya. So the separatist movement shouldn't claim itself as the sole and legitimate representative of these two cultural figures. Usually, it's the Islamist radical groups and far-right groups that would claim universal symbols as solely and exclusively theirs. As much as God is everyone's god, then even Mammeri and Matoub are everyone's Amazigh symbols. Please don't bend Mammeri's views and writings and Matoub's verses in such a way as to legitimize your extravagant separatist and racist claims.

You said: "I do not militate in any political movement, but a scientific reality must be recognized and defended."

I think that even if one doesn't belong to a specific political party or political movement, if they are supporting linguistic separatism, that's bad and even dangerous enough.

You said: "I am an author, but I can not say that I write in Tamazight when I know that only the Kabyle people will read what I write."

I write in my local dialect and consider it Tamazight just as everybody else does, and Kabyle is understood even in Morocco. We shouldn't start to lose our minds after more than 50 years of struggling.

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alemfarid alemfarid 19. syyskuuta 2018 19. syyskuuta 2018 klo 21.08.14 UTC link Ikilinkki

Azul,

i wacu ahetwir-agi ur nesɛi azal wala iswi!!! nekni n qeddec ɣef teqbaylit i teqbaylit. ak iɛin ṛebbi di leqdic-ik ula d keč.ihi ttxil-k anef-aɣ a neqdec di talwit. Tanemmirt u s tagmatt.

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Amastan Amastan 19. syyskuuta 2018 19. syyskuuta 2018 klo 23.10.59 UTC link Ikilinkki

Azul,

Imir-a imi ay d-nniɣ ayen ay iyi-yehwan, anef-asen ad wten agejdun, ad xebcen udmawen-nsen d asawen neɣ ad wten iɣfawen-nsen ɣer uɣrab. Ur d-cligeɣ ara.

Hi,

Now that I have spoken my mind, let them slap their faces, scratch them upwards or bang their heads on the wall. I just don't care.

djafmess djafmess 21. syyskuuta 2018, muokattu 21. syyskuuta 2018 21. syyskuuta 2018 klo 19.06.49 UTC, muokattu 21. syyskuuta 2018 klo 19.33.58 UTC link Ikilinkki

Sorry, Mastan, but saying that there is a total mutual understanding between the speakers of the different Berber "dialects" (in fact languages) is not true at all. A Tuareg will only understand about 1 to 2% of what a Kabyle says. A Mozabite can only understand about 10% of what a Chaoui says, etc. So let's stop lying to ourselves.

For more details, here is a link to a short article in French:

https://www.facebook.com/groups...7001788715278/

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Amastan Amastan 21. syyskuuta 2018 21. syyskuuta 2018 klo 20.16.56 UTC link Ikilinkki

@Djaffmess

Have you seen the videos of the links I posted on this wall? It seems to me that you would use those statistics only to justify a fact that could be verified in another way. Just how were those statistics made. I'm not talking about the Tuareg-Kabyle mutual intelligibility which is the most extreme case (and your favorite, guys :-)))) I'm talking about the Shawi-Kabyle-Blida-Shenwa mutual intelligibility. Please the posts where I mention that read again and again and again and make sure that it's those dialects that I'm talking about.

Science shouldn't merely be based on statistics that were made more than 30 years ago by linguists that carried out by linguists in not-always easy environments and appropriate conditions. We are doing science here, so I find it legitimate to ask the following questions:

Who did those statistics? (If I'm not mistaken they were mentioned by Salem Chaker, right?)

Did he say when and how? Of course I don't doubt Chaker's scientific authority or methodology, but here are a few issues that should also be taken into consideration (and once more for my haters ---- one doesn't need to have a PhD to open their mouth and discuss linguistics):

Were the persons interviewed men or women? Usually, Amazigh-speaking men travel to other areas, therefore, they cold enter into contact with Amazigh speakers of other areas and they could therefore communicate and learn each other's dialect.

Were those statistics made before or after the launching of Algerian TV 4 (the Amazigh-speaking TV station) that has popularized the Amazigh Kabyle dialect across all of Algeria to such extent that nowadays, even some Algerian Arabic speakers can understand dozens of Kabyle words and phrases.

So those statistics might need to be updated and you know very well that they are not the Holy Quran. If you gave statistics that date back to the 1970's or the 1980's to a modern linguist, they'd laugh at you, brother.

And now, even after I've demonstrated you with videos (that are fact) that Shawis and Kabyles could communicate in their respective dialects, you're continuing to deny the existence of the sun in broad daylight?




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djafmess djafmess 22. syyskuuta 2018 22. syyskuuta 2018 klo 8.04.13 UTC link Ikilinkki

Get an analphabet Kabyle to listen to a discussion or a song in any of the other Amazigh languages and you will surely discover that they merely understand a word or two of it. Even me who knows the differences between these languages, I find it so hard to understand a Chawi song or a Chelhi discussion. So how can we unify languages separated from each other thousands of years ago? It's nonsense to even try it. Can you unify today's German languages to make one unique language?

AmarMecheri AmarMecheri 16. syyskuuta 2018, muokattu 16. syyskuuta 2018 16. syyskuuta 2018 klo 12.41.29 UTC, muokattu 16. syyskuuta 2018 klo 21.15.39 UTC link Ikilinkki

D'abord... Merci d'avoir posé des questions pertinentes concernant le couple Kabyle/Berbère.

First ... Thank you for asking relevant questions about the Kabyle / Berber couple.

En ne voulant pas offenser, vous le faites sans le savoir. Vous devriez préférer l'histoire (non officielle, celle des historiens), ce serait mieux.
Ce que vous appelez domination ottomane (/ turque) s'est justement heurtée à la seule composante kabyle (et chaouïe).

By not wanting to offend, you do it without knowing it. You should prefer history (unofficial, that of historians), it would be better.
What you call Ottoman (/Turkish) domination has come up against the only Kabyle component (and chaouïe).

Les Ottomans ont toujours délibérément ignoré la dimension kabyle, alors qu'ils ont dû composer  avec ceux qui leur ont résisté.
Les Français, tout en faisant pareil, ont quand même dépêché des Pères Blancs et des historiens pour creuser la question.
Si on s'en tenait plutôt à l'aspect linguistique? Et de partage convivial?
Ce serait mieux, je crois.

 The Ottomans have always deliberately ignored the Kabyle dimension, whereas they had to "compose" with those who resisted to them. The French, while doing the same, have nevertheless sent the "Pères Blancs" and historians to dig the question and issue.
Why not sticking to the linguistic aspect? And friendly sharing?
It would be better, I think.

Par ailleurs, sur la même page, on peut lire les propos sidérants d'un partisan du pan-berbère qui qualifie les variantes du berbère de simples dialectes, alors que la production la plus importante en berbère, tous secteurs confondus, est celle des kabyles, dont celle du plus kabyle d'entre eux: l'initiateur anthropologue-linguiste Mouloud Mammeri "qu'il cite".

 Moreover, on the same page, one can read the astonishing remarks of a pan-Berber partisan who qualifies the Berber variants of simple dialects, while the most important production in Berber, all sectors, is that of the Kabyles , including that of the most Kabyle of them: the anthropologist-linguist initiator Mouloud Mammeri whom "he quotes".

Je crois qu'il serait judicieux de poser la question aux Kabyles, qui pourraient vous expliquer le pourquoi de la séparation par les tergiversations des autorités concernant la transcription (en caractères arabes, tifinagh ou latins?).
Où est donc cette académie? 
Nous, Kabyles, nous voulons aller de l'avant.
Et ça se voit sur Tatoeba.
C'est tout.
Salutations
NB: Je réponds ici à titre personnel et mes propos n'engagent que ma personne.

I think it would be wise to ask the Kabyles, who could explain the reasons for the separation by procrastination of the authorities concerning the transcription (in Arabic, Tifinagh or Latin characters?).
Where is this academy?
We, Kabyles, want to move forward.
And it is obviously showed on Tatoeba.
That's all.
Greetings
NB: I answer here as an individual and my remarks commit only my person.

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Amastan Amastan 16. syyskuuta 2018 16. syyskuuta 2018 klo 15.43.45 UTC link Ikilinkki

If you are referring to me as the person who is offending you, then I don't see how I have offended you. I am defending my points here and if I claim that I am actively opposed to the separatist movement, then this normally shouldn't be considered as an offence. I am just talking about my personal position and I suppose I am free to express it. Besides, I'd better tell let you know what I think rather than we keep these kind of things hidden. I still consider this as a linguistic debate. I mentioned that it was linked to politics because it's a fact, too. I see that you would continue to defend your views with the exact same arguments to the end. I consider this as ideology and not science. But this is just my opinion. I am not at all offended by your scientific claims and even myths (on the contrary, I'm happy to see that people like you have developed a mythology). Just let other people continue to believe in what they want. Let every one go their separate way. It's as simple as that and it's fine by me. Goodbye.

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AmarMecheri AmarMecheri 16. syyskuuta 2018 16. syyskuuta 2018 klo 21.28.39 UTC link Ikilinkki

I never said that you would have offended me. I never addressed you, nor will I ever do it. In what perspective? Greetings.

Amastan Amastan 19. syyskuuta 2018 19. syyskuuta 2018 klo 15.36.08 UTC link Ikilinkki

@AmarMecheri

You have raised a number of important points that I would like to answer individually:

You said: "...the most important production in Berber, all sectors, is that of the Kabyles , including that of the most Kabyle of them: the anthropologist-linguist initiator Mouloud Mammeri whom "he quotes".

Who denies it? And this is an honor to the Kabyles who made all those contributions not only to Kabylie but also to all of Algeria and North Africa, and ultimately, to the whole world. Mammeri is an Algerian intellectual who is celebrated internationally. I think that this view of "we are the only ones who did everything" is rather immature and irrelevant. The members of the Amazigh Cultural Movement worked for the recognition and the promotion of the Amazigh culture across all of North Africa and I find it completely absurd that today, some people would reduce the importance of such a noble struggle to just this region of Kabylie. Today it's some of the fiecest Amazighophobes (Amazigh-hating racists) that are spreading the narrative that "only Kabylie promotes Tamazight, therefore it should only be taught in that region." Today millions of Algerian Amazigh-speakers from all areas claim the recognition and the promotion of the Amazigh language. There is a huge and vibrant Amazigh-language movement in the Aures area and also in the Mzab area, and smaller Amazigh-speaking areas are also beginning to wake up and produce books and other resources. I just despise this new Kabyle ethnocentrism that will lead us nowhere. No one needs it anyway except for a racist separatist movement and the fiercest enemies of the Amazigh identity (the racist Arabists and the violent Islamist extremists).

You said: "I think it would be wise to ask the Kabyles, who could explain the reasons for the separation by procrastination of the authorities concerning the transcription (in Arabic, Tifinagh or Latin characters?)."

Well, I am a Kabyle myself and I don't need to be a member of a separatist and racist movement to be considered as one by the members of that movement. Tamazight is being written in the Latin script. No serious person could question that in Algeria. It's over. It's solved. The rocket has taken off and there is no return as far as this is concerned. The issue of the alphabet is just a false issue that "opposition" politicians are using to justify this or that idea no matter how absurd it might be. The separatist and racist movement that claims the separation of Kabylie from the rest of Algeria has other political aims and doesn't exist to "save the so-called Kabyle language from extinction or from being written in the Arabic script."

You said: "We, Kabyles, want to move forward."

Oh really? And what do Kabyles like me want? To go back to stone age? We have already moved forward years before your joining this website. There are over 100,000 sentences in Amazigh (and in the Kabyle dialect) and Kabyles don't need a separatist movement to further their culture.

Your mentioning of "we Kabyles" denotes utter contempt to Kabyles who don't support or are against your hateful movement. Fortunately, you're just an insignificant minority in Kabylie. You make a lot of noise but you don't exist as a political force that's fully accepted and espoused by the society in Kabylie.

Amastan Amastan 19. syyskuuta 2018 19. syyskuuta 2018 klo 23.08.40 UTC link Ikilinkki

@AmarMecheri

Who talks about offending here? But by the way, and I would like to let all the people here know:

I'm used to being attacked and offended by the supporters of this racist separatist movement. One could sense the aggressiveness and hypersensitivity of their replies here. This can't be hidden.

Besides, I and my cultural group have also received direct threats either via private messages or public comments. I have some examples that I could show people here, if they want. So don't worry about that. I have just decided not to be scared of your peers when they start growling and showing their teeth, and just speak whatever is on my mind to reveal whole truth about your movement. I don't give two s**ts about it. Here in Algeria, we have already endured the terror of the Islamist terrorists. Now your peers can't scare me.

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AmarMecheri AmarMecheri 20. syyskuuta 2018 20. syyskuuta 2018 klo 2.27.03 UTC link Ikilinkki

NO COMMENT
NO STATEMENT
NO JUDGMENT

AmarMecheri AmarMecheri 16. syyskuuta 2018, muokattu 16. syyskuuta 2018 16. syyskuuta 2018 klo 16.46.04 UTC, muokattu 16. syyskuuta 2018 klo 23.46.10 UTC link Ikilinkki

To Tatoeba's colleagues with my greetings:
Since I could not erase the old message that has been duplicated by a bad connection, I'm rewriting it to say that I probably will not be writing on this wall again. I apologize in advance for not being able to give more explanations than that of the seek for serenity.

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soliloquist soliloquist 16. syyskuuta 2018 16. syyskuuta 2018 klo 19.37.16 UTC link Ikilinkki

I don't know much about Pan-Berberism or Berber separatism. I consider Algerians (of all ethnicities) as a friendly nation for Turks and want Algeria to be a stable country. That's my point.

My question above was rather technical. It doesn't seem very useful to have sentences of the same language separated into two corpuses.

Ultimately, this is an issue to be settled between yourselves.

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Amastan Amastan 19. syyskuuta 2018 19. syyskuuta 2018 klo 22.03.16 UTC link Ikilinkki

There are geopolitical agendas using some regional clowns like Barzani in Iraq and the leader of those separatists here in Algeria. You certainly know what I mean ;-)

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soliloquist soliloquist 19. syyskuuta 2018 19. syyskuuta 2018 klo 22.41.27 UTC link Ikilinkki

Let's not name names here.

#3752601

The MENA region suffers a lot from not only religious extremism, but also micro-nationalism. At the end, only arms dealers and oil companies win.

Demand for cultural rights and fighting for separatism are two different things.

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Amastan Amastan 19. syyskuuta 2018 19. syyskuuta 2018 klo 23.03.13 UTC link Ikilinkki

+1

#3752601 ;-)

belkacem77 belkacem77 21. syyskuuta 2018 21. syyskuuta 2018 klo 15.35.13 UTC link Ikilinkki

@soliloquits

It's not a matter of politics and we don't care about it. We only want to bring kabyle to the digital world.

This debate is an unnecessary controversy.

@Amastan is seeking for one language like arabic. This is a jacobinism (Unicity) conception where we were been raised: One religion (islam), one language (arabic)... The new generation is watching things diffrently: Sociolinguistics, reality and diversity.

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Amastan Amastan 21. syyskuuta 2018 21. syyskuuta 2018 klo 18.05.48 UTC link Ikilinkki

@soliloquist

Belkacem77's last message has made me happy as far as changing the flag is concerned. If he's truly not interested in politics, then I understand that it should be OK to change the flag from that of the separatist MAK movement to something else. Then let's request the admins to do it.

@Belkacem77

Don't seek to categorize me, judge me, analyze me or try to know how I think or which political or ideological current I belong to. It doesn't matter here. I'm just a little insignificant man in this world. I'm talking about linguistic views. We are from two different schools so just admit that even my linguistic views have the right to exist and be respected. Don't turn the tables on me. I think you're more Jacobin than I am. I promote a view that would embrace all the diverse dialects under the same banner and you promote a view that would only take one regional dialect and standardize it, excluding all the others and within that very same area itself, you would obviously crush and deny the existence of dialects that are too close to Shawi to be considered Kabyle. Is that your view? Fair enough even if I hate it and will never adhere to it. Just admit that there could be more than one view in this world, whether you hate it or not. Anyway, I just don't care if you hate it or like it. The world is moving on. As for you, the hell with your project and your views. My views are valid, too and they'll continue to flourish and be promoted.

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belkacem77 belkacem77 21. syyskuuta 2018, muokattu 21. syyskuuta 2018 21. syyskuuta 2018 klo 20.22.50 UTC, muokattu 21. syyskuuta 2018 klo 20.27.13 UTC link Ikilinkki

@Amastan

Believe me you are obsessed. None said that!!!
This flag is the idendity that the kab locale choised on all plateforms.

As you are working on the ber locale why such obsession toward Kabyle language, Kabyle culture, Kabyle identity?

Kabylians suffered oppression since years everywhere. Our language was banned everywhere and you want now do the same on the Internet?

Beleive me, never seen such an obsession and racism toward a language.

Only Tatoeba kab members can do things related to their locale. Ok?

Please go on with your work and let the kab team working on their language.

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Amastan Amastan 21. syyskuuta 2018 21. syyskuuta 2018 klo 20.36.00 UTC link Ikilinkki

>>>> Beleive me, never seen such an obsession and racism toward a language.

Are you out of your mind? Who's the racist here? Don't you remember how you tried to discredit me and cast doubt about my "Kabyleness" simply because I was born outside of Kabyle? You're a rabid and miserable racist, not me.

Let's focus on the essential and please don't try to accuse me of "hating Kabyles". This is what your bunch of rabid haters have been trying to spread on me but how could that be possible. I'm Kabyle myself. I already told you that. I'm working for Kabyle culture as much as I'm working for the general Amazigh culture and universal culture in general. Oh, and there are many people who know me personally and know how Amazigh and Kabyle I am. For example, and contrary to you and your peers, I don't speak in French to other Kabyles. How about you? Could you deny the fact that French is your main language with many of your FB friends? Come on, stop this nonsense.

And now back to the essential:

I am actively opposed to your linguistic separatism and the political separatism it implies. Unfortunately, Mqidec (the Kabyle contributor who decided to stop contributing because of the MAK movement flag) has just informed me that he's leaving this website altogether because of the flag of this separatist organization. Don't worry, I will do undertake all the necessary steps needed to convince the admins to change this political flag. Apart from that, everything is fine by me. You could continue to work do your job peacefully and I, continue doing mine peacefully too.

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belkacem77 belkacem77 22. syyskuuta 2018 22. syyskuuta 2018 klo 0.11.51 UTC link Ikilinkki

@Amastan

You need a detox of racism.

You have to know that a lot of organizations over the world are working to save languages, especially minor languages such as Kabyle. Some of these organizations/foundations are technical such as: ISO, UNICODE, Mozilla, Tatoeba, Wikimedia, Oppia, OpenStreetMap where our language, Kabyle of course, is involved.... some others are social/politics: UNESCO, Ethnologue, Human rights organizations and so on.

You have to fight to save these languages ​​and not their prohibition!!!

By the way, the kab locale is thinking about a wide, an international project involving all world languages that have online corpora, this projetc is dealing with live vocal translation using deep learning technics like Common Voice where Kabyle is also involved.

Think about it, may be you can help.

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belkacem77 belkacem77 22. syyskuuta 2018 22. syyskuuta 2018 klo 0.48.56 UTC link Ikilinkki

@Amastan

Languages of the world by Asya Pereltsvaig
Cambridge University Press 2012.

********
asya pereltsvaig is a lecturer in the Department of Linguistics at
Stanford University.
********

Please refer to page 206:
---Begin of the citation
"Another family within Afroasiatic is that of the Berber languages, a family
consisting of 25 individual languages spoken in a scattered pattern across north Africa from just east of the Egypt–Libya border. However, the majority of Berber speakers are nomadic tribesmen who live in the mountainous parts of Algeria and especially Morocco, and in the desert parts of Mali and Niger. Among the most widely spoken Berber languages are Kabyle (2.5 million speakers in Algeria), Tachelhit (3 million speakers in Morocco and Algeria), Tamazight (3 million speakers in Morocco and Algeria), Tashawit (1.4 million speakers in Algeria), Tarifit (1.5 million speakers in Morocco and Algeria) and Tamasheq (282,000 speakers in Mali and Niger). There has been a great deal of contact and diffusion between Berber languages and the neighboring Arabic varieties."

---End of citation
_____________________


People must know that you are gethering together 25 individual languages in one corpus, the berber family language. So the Berber corpus will not be exploited by simple users like me and you, but probably by informed linguists who can recognize these languages. It's like you are gathering french, spanish, portugeese, romanian, and italian in one corpus and you name it Latin language, and that's not Tatoeba's goal.

Amastan Amastan 22. syyskuuta 2018, muokattu 22. syyskuuta 2018 22. syyskuuta 2018 klo 19.50.34 UTC, muokattu 22. syyskuuta 2018 klo 20.46.03 UTC link Ikilinkki

Belkacem77

Re racist detox...

You still call me racist? This is laughable. You have been racist to me, mind you (the fact tjat I was born in Algiers poses a "grave problem", ho-ho-ho) and you still pretend to be nice. However I have never been racist to you.

belkacem77 belkacem77 16. syyskuuta 2018 16. syyskuuta 2018 klo 19.59.31 UTC link Ikilinkki

For more information about Kabyle Language, Kabylia (region) and Kabyle people:

1- Ethnologue : The most authoritative resource on world languages, trusted by academics and Fortune 500 companies alike.

https://www.ethnologue.com/language/kab
2- ISO: The International Organization for Standardization
https://www.loc.gov/standards/i...rench_list.php

3- Wikepdia english:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabyle_language
Please refer to the INALCO, HCA, CNEPLET, DLCA of Tizi ouzou, DLCA of Béjaia, DLCA of Bouira
__________

@soliloquist
I'm a Kabyle and I'm closer to berber languages. There is a huge gaps between these languages. Languages from the south are influenced by the the african languages, so they developped a foregh grammar structure. There is also a gap in pronounciation, verbs flexions, plural form, female form....

By the way, Turkish troops were beaten in Kabylia during the colonization of North Africa by the Turkish empire. The Turkish empire did never administer Kabylia. Turkish regard to Kabylia (East of Algiers) is the same to Armenia and Kurdistan. That's history. But today, happily, science such Siocolinguistics, linguistics .... should rule.

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soliloquist soliloquist 16. syyskuuta 2018 16. syyskuuta 2018 klo 22.03.36 UTC link Ikilinkki

>Turkish regard to Kabylia (East of Algiers) is the same to Armenia and Kurdistan. That's history.

I'm sure most of the Turkish people never even heard of the word Kabylia. I don't want to dwell on the subject by discussing Anatolian history with you here (and I don't think I need a history lesson from you on this subject). That's a whole different matter. I hope (I'm guessing so) this hostile attitude of yours is in the minority in Algeria.

Lastly, I want to ask you one thing. Are you offended by being called an Algerian?

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deyta deyta 16. syyskuuta 2018, muokattu 16. syyskuuta 2018 16. syyskuuta 2018 klo 22.28.04 UTC, muokattu 16. syyskuuta 2018 klo 22.29.05 UTC link Ikilinkki

Kabiliye
Cezayir'de bir bölge
Alan: 25.000 km²
Nüfus: 7,576 milyon (2012)

sanırım bunlar cezayir'in kürtleri.
dağda yaşıyorlarmış, otorite tanımıyorlarmış, cahilmişler ve aşırı nüfusları varmış.

The Kabyle country remained as unconquerable as it was inaccessible to the Ottoman deys. They generally established a few coastal military settlements and some in valleys, where they enforced the rule of the Islamic Ottoman Empire. The mountainous core land, however, remained independent. Islam was gradually adopted through peaceful means, namely the Marabout movement. Some scholars argue that this is the reason of the Kabyles' indifference towards Islam.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabylie#Middle_Ages

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soliloquist soliloquist 16. syyskuuta 2018, muokattu 16. syyskuuta 2018 16. syyskuuta 2018 klo 23.12.40 UTC, muokattu 16. syyskuuta 2018 klo 23.12.41 UTC link Ikilinkki

https://www.siwel.info/wp-conte...6-16455343.jpg

Tarzlarını diasporaya benzettim. Tuhaf... Türkiye'de insanlar pek bilmiyor bunları. Fransa'da yaşayanları da varmış epey. Fransa bunların suyuna bir şey katıyor galiba, Türk'e bakış açıları ve saldırı tarzları tornadan çıkmış gibi birbirine benziyor.

Araplara ve Türklere tepkilerini bir şekilde anlamlandırırım, ama Berber kimliğine niye burun kıvırıyorlar, onu çözemedim. Türkiye'de Kürt kimliğini bastırıp Kurmançi kimliğini öne çıkaran bir Kürt'e rastlamak pek mümkün değil. Bunların yaptığı ona benziyor.

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deyta deyta 16. syyskuuta 2018 16. syyskuuta 2018 klo 23.29.15 UTC link Ikilinkki


kürtlerin yanında olmaları siyasi.
çünkü Kabiliyeliler cezayir'den bağımsızlık istiyorlar.

The Movement for the Autonomy of Kabylie (MAK), founded in June 2001, has called for self-government for the region since 2011.
The MAK is re-baptised as "Mouvement pour l'Autodétermination de la Kabylie" seeking independence from Algeria

bir de şu var.

türkiye'de zazalar kendilerini kürtlerden ayrı görüyorlar.
zazalar bağımsızlık istemiyorlar.türklere daha yakınlar.

belki de kabiliyeliler berberilerden gerekli siyasi desteği alamıyorlardır.
bu nedenle onlara da düşman olmuşlardır.

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Amastan Amastan 19. syyskuuta 2018 19. syyskuuta 2018 klo 22.26.55 UTC link Ikilinkki

@deyta

The language flag they are using for Kabyle is the flag of that racist separatist movement called MAK (the Movement for Kabyle Self-Determination).

Amastan Amastan 19. syyskuuta 2018 19. syyskuuta 2018 klo 22.31.33 UTC link Ikilinkki

It would be unwise to mix linguistics with politics but that's exactly what they are doing here.

And obviously, it would be unwise for a pan-Amazighist who respects Mouloud Mammeri and all the respectable figures of Amazigh culture and linguistics, to offer their 100,000 sentences to a group that uses the flag of a dangerous separatist organization.

Ferhat Mhenni, the leader of the movement, called for the creation of some sort of militia in Kabylie:

http://www.lematindalgerie.com/...ps-de-securite

That's all Algeria needs after a civil war of more than 10 years + another 10 years of al-Qaida and ISIS terrorist attacks and threats.

Do you understand now why this movement should be actively opposed?

belkacem77 belkacem77 18. syyskuuta 2018 18. syyskuuta 2018 klo 8.31.14 UTC link Ikilinkki

Here we are, from linguistics to politics.
When we started our locale on Tatoeba, we were seeking to use these corpura to develop tools dealing with NLP, work on models: speech, morphosyntactic, grammar, semantics, pragmatics... but you draw us to politics!!!! What's a shame.

Take a look to your sentence and please try to analyze it:

- sanırım bunlar cezayir'in kürtleri.
dağda yaşıyorlarmış, otorite tanımıyorlarmış, cahilmişler ve aşırı nüfusları varmış.-

What's a shame!!!

That's colonialism spirit, and a sort of negationism.
Do you think we are excessive population with no authority? What ignorance.
You should take a look on history books but not those wrote by colonialist historians (and among them Muslims).

We are not the Kurds of Algeria (and we respecxt and support their rights) !!! We are Algeria, We are North Africa.

______________________

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deyta deyta 18. syyskuuta 2018, muokattu 18. syyskuuta 2018 18. syyskuuta 2018 klo 20.15.41 UTC, muokattu 18. syyskuuta 2018 klo 20.19.30 UTC link Ikilinkki

thanks.

You are Algeria.
Why do you want independence from Algeria?

You love Kurds.
Why do you have an uncompromising attitude towards the Berbers?

I agree with Amastan in this discussion.
Berbers and kabyle need unity and integrity.

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Amastan Amastan 19. syyskuuta 2018 19. syyskuuta 2018 klo 22.24.42 UTC link Ikilinkki

@deyta

Thanks for your message. Let me explain: Algeria was liberated after a painful independence war that lasted 8 years. Kabyles played an important role in the war for independence and today, no one in Algeria could deny that role. For almost all Kabyles, questioning the unity of Algeria is totally unacceptable. It's a taboo subject. Algeria's unity is unquestionable and a red line that no decent Algerian would accept. Because the members of this separatist movement are furthering an extravagant idea, they also need to justify it with the craziest arguments: persecution, secularism (as if they were the only secularist people in Kabylie or Algeria), language, etc. And with their intolerance of anyone who doesn't agree with their crazy ideas, they have already earned enemies everywhere and they won't go far with their project.

samir_t samir_t 17. syyskuuta 2018, muokattu 17. syyskuuta 2018 17. syyskuuta 2018 klo 0.03.54 UTC, muokattu 17. syyskuuta 2018 klo 0.17.31 UTC link Ikilinkki

@Solilloquist
If many Kabyle people do not like to define themselves as Algerians, it is because this country (Algeria) is defined above all, in its constitution and in the field, as being an "Arab and Muslim" country which is not the truth. The Kabyle are not Arab and do not have to be Muslims or anything else. Kabylia is a secular region that defends the right of worship. But what is even more important, is to safeguard its language, to teach it in a correct way on its land and not superficially anarchically as the Algerian State does at present.

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soliloquist soliloquist 17. syyskuuta 2018 17. syyskuuta 2018 klo 20.04.28 UTC link Ikilinkki

OK, samir_t. I got your point.

I also read these pages to get some idea about the current situation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Algeria

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F...ion_in_Algeria

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Amastan Amastan 19. syyskuuta 2018 19. syyskuuta 2018 klo 22.19.00 UTC link Ikilinkki

@soliloquist

All extremist and radical movements that speak in the name of a specific religious or cultural group would like to pass as the *exclusive* representative of that group. ISIS (or Daesh) considers itself as the sole and legitimate representative of all the Muslims on earth... And those separatists are entertaining the illusion that they are the sole and legitimate representative of Algeria's Kabyles. You know what I mean?

Amastan Amastan 19. syyskuuta 2018 19. syyskuuta 2018 klo 22.15.49 UTC link Ikilinkki

@soliloquist

samir_t said:

"If many Kabyle people do not like to define themselves as Algerians,"

Other Kabyles consider such people as lunatic. Most Kabyles identify as Algerians and reject the political extremism of this racist separatist movement.

Amastan Amastan 19. syyskuuta 2018 19. syyskuuta 2018 klo 22.12.49 UTC link Ikilinkki

Ethnologue? Linguists?

Every year there is new research, new dialects and subdialects are being explored and studied, new etymologies and links are being established. Academic studies are being constantly updated and your political-linguistic separatism will soon be discarded by a new generation of linguists from the universities of Bejaia and Batna who are more focused on the deep structural and dialectological links between Kabyle, Tasahlit, Chenoua, and Shawi. New dictionaries are being prepared. I guess this is why you are panicking here on this wall.

As for the ISO code, new ISO codes are made every day across the world and just as Morocco requested and obtained its "zgh" code, Algeria too will request and obtain its Standard Algerian Tamazight code. As for you, whether you continue building your virtual political myths or not, I don't think that Algerians would continue to listen to you. Society ignores you. Academics ignore you (I often take part in scientific conferences and never hear about your virtual language), and you will soon be completely forgotten once the Amazigh academy starts working and standardizing the language.

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belkacem77 belkacem77 20. syyskuuta 2018 20. syyskuuta 2018 klo 8.04.03 UTC link Ikilinkki


@Amastan

Please we are discussing Kabyle corpora. We are focusing only on the language spoken by millions of Kabyles. We don't care about politics. We want use this corpora to work on linguistic models. We started some NLP work dealing only with Kabyle language: Tokenization, syllabification, POS Tag, Voice, translation, semantics, grammar... please go on with your work and let my team working on it's own locale.

You can keep working on Berbers corpus , we will probably need to use it for other processings. I suggest you to stop this polemic.

Thanks

Amastan Amastan 22. syyskuuta 2018 22. syyskuuta 2018 klo 18.41.57 UTC link Ikilinkki

Re: Different languages...

Asya Pereltsvaig...

This is too general. Its like a passage picked from a kid's encuclopedia. Even the statkstics are too old, back to when Kabyles were only two millions and a half and Algerians as a whole just ten ot twelve million people. This doesnt deny the fact I told you: the continuum stretching between southern Tunisia and northern morocco. Has there been any study to deny this fact.

25 different languages for Pereltsvaig and other linguists... how well do they know them? Do tjey know them better than Andre Basset or Salem Chaker who always use the term dialect?

25 dialects or languages (as you prefer): we are faced with practical problems but Tatoeba has a solution. My solution is to use tags to show people which dialsct it is. You have chosen another solution. Fair enough. Let's move on now and let everyone go about their business.