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Impersonator Impersonator 2020年8月17日, 編集 2020年8月17日 2020年8月17日 14:09:01 UTC, 編集 2020年8月17日 18:04:09 UTC link 固定リンク

SUGGESTION: let's change the Belarusian flag to white-red-white


Since Belarusian was added on Tatoeba, two things have changed:

1. Recently, the white-red-white flag has been adopted by most Belarusians.

Back when Belarusian was added, some 10 years ago, the white-red-white flag had limited use: it was de facto forbidden and it was used mostly by few politically active people and Belarusians abroad.

Recently, we've seen white-red-white flag adopted by Belarusians all over the Belarus. It's clearly much more common than the red-green flag nowadays.


2. Tatoeba has developed clear guidelines about language variants.

Back when Belarusian was added, it wasn't clear if the flag was to represent all variants of Belarusian, or just the academic standard (narkamaŭka, be-1959acad).

Originally, we only had sentences in academic Belarusian, so it made sense to reserve the white-red-white for classical Belarusian (taraškievica, be-tarask) and use red-green for the academic standard.

However, Tatoeba has since introduced clearer guidelines about using ISO codes, which means the flag should represent both academic and classical standards. I believe the white-red-white flag works better in this case.




ПРАПАНОВА: давайце зменім сцяг для беларускай мовы на бела-чырвона-белы

З таго часу, калі быў выбраны сцяг для беларускай на Татоэбе, змяніліся дзве рэчы:

1. Апошнім часам БЧБ сцяг стала выкарыстоўваць большасць беларусаў.

Калі ў свой час, 10 год таму назад, дадавалася беларускай мова, БЧБ выкарыстоўваўся мала: ён быў дэ-факта забаронены, і яго выкарыстоўвалі толькі нешматлікія палітычна актыўныя людзі і беларусы за мяжой.

Апошнім часам, як бачым, БЧБ сцяг сталі выкарыстоўваць беларусы па ўсёй Беларусі. Відавочна, яго выкарыстоўваюць нашмат часцей, ніж чырвона-зялёны.


2. На Tatoeb'е з'явіліся дакладныя правілы пра моўныя варыянты.

Калі дадавалася беларуская мова, было незразумела, ці дадаецца сцяг для ўсіх варыянтаў беларускай, ці толькі для акадэмічнага стандарта (наркамаўкі, be-1959acad).

Першапачаткова ў нас былі толькі сказы акадэмічным стандартам беларускай мовы, і здавалася лагічным зарэзерваваць БЧБ для класічнай беларускай (тарашкевіцы, be-tarask), а акадэмічны стандарт пазначаць чырвона-зялёным сцягам.

Аднак з таго часу на Tatoeb'е з'явіліся дакладныя правілы пра выкарыстанне кодаў ISO, а гэта значыць, што сцяг адзіны і для акадэмічнай, і для класічнай беларускай. Мне здаецца, што БЧБ ў такім выпадку лепей.

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Thanuir Thanuir 2020年8月17日 2020年8月17日 19:11:52 UTC link 固定リンク

Kuvaako Wikipedia-artikkeli aihetta tasapuolisesti ja tarkasti? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Belarus

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Impersonator Impersonator 2020年8月17日, 編集 2020年8月17日 2020年8月17日 20:37:55 UTC, 編集 2020年8月17日 20:45:46 UTC link 固定リンク

[If you're addressing me, could you please use a language I speak? In my culture, switching to a language another person in the conversation doesn't know is considered rude. This is usually done to offend the interlocutor.

While I understand you're probably not trying to offend me, I first read your messages as agression, and only later I rationalise this interpretation away. This makes the conversation very frustrating for me.]

The article gets the historical context correctly, but it doesn't mention some important facts:

1. Recent developments.

In the past (e.g. 10 years ago), white-red-white flag was used by a minority: it was a flag of the systemic opposition, a small group of so-called "real" or "conscious" Belarusians. They were usually pro-European, spoke Belarusian, often were religious, often used classical Belarusian, etc.

Since August, this has changed. After the police tortures, it has became the flag of the majority. It has been used by people who speak Russian, by pro-Russia people etc. You can now see it in every city, town or village, it's basically everywhere.

2. Red-green flag is not a very good representation for Belarusian in general because it has been used in periods when the Belarusian language was discouraged.

Lukashenko introduced red-green flag alongside with the introducion of Russian as the second state language. Since then, the usage of Belarusian has been declining.

White-red-white flag was used in the first years of the Belarusian independence, when Belarusian was promoted as the only state language.

(Fun fact: a website https://belaruspartisan.by/ uses white-red-white flag to represent the Belarusian language, and red-green flag to represent Russian.)

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Thanuir Thanuir 2020年8月18日 2020年8月18日 5:26:31 UTC link 固定リンク

Ursäkta mig och tack for extra information.

fjay69 fjay69 2020年8月18日 2020年8月18日 8:01:20 UTC link 固定リンク

Don't repeat the Kabile-Berber drama.

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Impersonator Impersonator 2020年8月18日, 編集 2020年8月18日 2020年8月18日 9:03:15 UTC, 編集 2020年8月18日 9:18:05 UTC link 固定リンク

I'm pretty sure you won't find any Belarusian speakers who would mind the flag change on Tatoeba. So it's unlikely we'll have any drama. :)

If you think the person who asked for the red-green flag originally would mind the decision, don't worry about that. It was me. :D I was the first Belarusian contributor who asked for the red-green flag in 2009 (I've used the account Demetrius back then). But a lot has changed since 2009.

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seveleu_dubrovnik seveleu_dubrovnik 29日前 2020年8月19日 20:52:57 UTC link 固定リンク

Dear ◊Impersonator◊, thank you for your suggestion.

I strongly disapprove it.

ON ARTEFACTS AND GENERAL MATTERS

◊Impersonator◊'s arguments as well as their elaborations are political and not linguistic. Tatoeba is a project around languages so any arguments other than linguistic are to be disregarded **by definition**. Tatoeba is not a place to expose one's political convictions nor the conclusions made thereof while this is what ◊Impersonator◊ exposes in his comment.

Let it be known that ◊Impersonator◊'s suggestion comes exactly at the time of large, instrumentalized political actions on the territories where Belarusan language is used (August 2020), let it also be noted that the white-red-white flag ◊Impersonator◊ is referring to acts as one of the totems of such instrumentalization. At Tatoeba, our purpose is to produce equilibrated, neutral decisions. Any decision using a politically-engaged token induces cognitive abberations and should be postponed until this token ceases to be such. I think it is only possible to mention the white-red-white flag when this totem becomes back just a flag and when we are able to make a cold-minded, weighted decision.


ON THE ARGUMENTS

1. "Recently, the white-red-white flag has been adopted by most Belarusians".

This is false.

Just as Wikipedia does, Tatoeba tries to reflect the existing situation and not to create new habits (in Wikipedia terms: no original research).

While the whole issue of associating languages with flags of countries is a tricky and bad idea (let's invent e.g. a politically neutral French language flag), it is a feasible matter if there exists one-to-one language-to-country correspondence. That is the case of the Belarusan language, whose major part of speakers inhabits Belarus, where as well it is an official language. ◊Impersonator◊ makes an error referring to some "recent" facts. The majority of Belarusans have adopted their flag in 1995 (= a quarter-century ago) and it had been officialized and legitimized immediately and widely used since. Not only postulated, that flag is factually used, e.g. in Belarusan passports (even held by those who disapprove the authority delivering those passports), e.g. in car number plates (even held by those who disapprove the authority delivering those plates) and all other sorts of documents, symbols and protocols. This symbol, just as the national anthem and the national coat of arms, is supposed to be treated with respect, and there are penal liability consequences for their abuse, according to the country's Criminal Code, just as in any other country.

◊Impersonator◊, The Tatoeba community including myself may misknow some facts, so please provide us with some further references to remind us of Belarusans adopting — in somehow juridically significant manner — the white-red-white flag. So far I cannot find any mention of such choice.

◊Impersonator◊, please use verifiable and quantifiable categories. "It became the flag of the majority" — one cannot verify this statement and it's not Tatoeba's contributors' responsibility to decode those external signals. As long as international organizations provide us with standardized versions of countries', languages' names, flags, capitals etc., we do not need to invent them ourselves.

2. I think ◊Impersonator◊ misunderstood the terms "varieties" or "variants" as mentioned by Tatoeba guidelines.

(My role as a professional linguist is also to disseminate knowledge, so please bear with me mumbling a little bit.)

Every language shows some level of diversity in its lexical units, phonology and phonotactics. It does not automatically make any two different speech instances different language "varieties". When one speaks of **variants** or **varieties**, the most evident feature is grammatical discrepancies. Usually this automatically leads to mutual incomprehensibility. This is e.g. the case of Western and Eastern Armenian. This is the case of different Italian dialects (Napoletano, Ligurian etc.) Usually, the ISO classification attributes a separate code to each of them. I have been dealing with updating ISO tables in the past, and you should know that to state some parlance as a "variety", one needs to provide documental evidences (publications) that 1) it exists (say, that the mentioned village really speaks the stated idiom) 2) that this "variety" is sufficiently distinct from its superstrate (that, say, Napoletan is morphologically distinct from Italian and from, say, Ligurian) and cannot be reduced to a dialect. On the other hand, sometimes mutual comprehensibility exposes artificial language segregation: Romanian and Moldovan, Iranian Persian (Farsi), Afghani Persian (Dari) and Tajiki Persian, Indonesian and Malay etc.

To say that "classical" and "official" Belarusan languages are "varieties" would be to state that they have different number of cases, differently distribute genders across nouns, use different cases and prepositions with the same verbs and expose different conjugation schemes and different phi- and theta- licencing (sorry, these are syntacticians' hardcore, but I must mention them). THIS IS NOT THE CASE! Not only don't these two "varieties" differ in any of the abovementioned features, they do not differ in pronounciation. As is well known, the primary form of any language is the linearized phonematic (=abstract phonetic) form. It is conditioned by the abstract knowledge of the language and is not related to using some specific script or to using a script at all (=being literate). That's the form of the language recorded by professional linguists in dialectology expeditions. When a Belarusan-speaking person pronounces the sequence of phonemes /k z'oram ahnʲ'istɨm k prɨv'ol̃ʲu nʲabʲ'ɛsnamu/ (‘to the stars of fire, to the expanses of the sky’, a Yanka Kupala's poem), it is completely devoid of any markedness as "classical" or "official" and is completely understood by any speaker of Belarusan, and this phonematic sequence is the primary form of Belarusian speech. Now in writing one can depict this phrase (or any other just as well) using differents strategies of indicating secondary articulation of palatalization (Roman languages palatalize only /l,n/, Slavic ones are known to palatalize everything and there had been three distinct historical palatalization shifts in XI, XII and XIII cc.). The "sequential strategy of indicating palatalization in writing" is simply called "classical orthography", the "combining strategy of indicating palatalization in writing" is simply called "official orthography" and it is the only official one. The sequential strategies using Latin or Arabic letters are known as "Belarusan Latin orthography" and "Belarusan Arabic script". There are two-side conversion procedures between any pair of the latter. The abovementioned phrase would be written as follows using those graphical protocols: "К зорам агністым, к прыволлю нябеснаму", classical "К зорам агністым, к прывольлю нябеснаму", Belarusan Latin "K zoram ahnistym, k pryvoĺliu niabiesnamu", Belarusan Arabic "ک زوَرام اهنِیستىم، ک پرىووَلِّو نِابِاِسنامو". Those are pronounced identically because they are one single utterance. None of those protocols is a "language variety" in a linguistic sense, and any portion of Belarusan speech can be written within any of those conventions (nor are those "transliterations", but this would make us deviate too far away). As have mentioned the topic-starter, some people condition politically their choice between official and "classical" orthographies. The scripts themselves are neutral, the political spicing up is the people's.

To sum up: what the topicstarter has mentioned are not linguistic "varieties" of the Belarusan language and it is normal that there is no ISO code attributed to them. The ISO code is correctly attributed to the unitary and undivided Belarusan language.

https://wals.info/languoid/lect/wals_code_blr

I think, we can consider as its varieties: "Trasianka" — a saturation of the Belarusian phonetics by the Russian lexical flows. "Polessian" — a microlanguage related to Belarusan and sharing several features with Ukrainian (or related to Ukrainian and sharing several features with Belarusian?), "Old-Belarusan" aka "Old-Ukraininan" aka "Ruthenian". Those languages either have separate ISO codes, or those codes can be assigned in principle after a probing procedure with ISO authorities ("Trasianka" would need more proper corpus). So far, on Tatoeba, we would distinguish them with tags, just as we would do with the dialectal forms (e.g. specific northern dialects of Belarusan mixing up /ч/ and /ц/).

So there are no two varieties to be represented by two different flags.

ANOTHER RELATED ISSUES

These matters do not directly relate to the topic, but may clarify the situation because ◊Impersonator◊ has provided some false arguments in the comments. Especially for the people who do not live in or have never been to Belarus, his way of presenting the facts is at least misleading.

◊Impersonator◊ mentions that Belarusan language has been left disregarded during the last twenty years and that the main source of this evil are official authorities.

This is false.

1) Let it be known that these are the very years when complete codification of the Belarusan language has been accomplished.

The Belarusan Language Institute of the National Academy of Sciences has alone published several central codification works:
- Rules of Belarusan Orthography (2008).
- Full Orthoepic Dictionary compliant with these Rules
- Grammar dictionaries of nous; verbs; adjectives; etc. compliant with these Rules (four or five autonomous dictionaries)
- Historical Dictionary of the Belarusian language (an ongoing publication, 21 volumes covering А—О so far, since 1982)
- Etymological dictionary of the Belarusian language (an ongoing publication, 14 volumes covering А—Т so far, since 1978).

The two last academic items are fundamental research and represent titanic amount of time and effort.


Please find the thousand-full list at their website http://www.iml.basnet.by/publikacyi . One cat find other, smaller and regional state-funded publishers publishing thousands of books and magazines in or about Belarusan language. They are plenty.

Some preparatory codification work concerning the Latin script has also been done. In 2008, an official Belarusian Latin scripting procedure has been introduced. It has been adopted into international use and standardized by UN and UNESCO afterwards.

2) Numerous and quite popular Belarusian-language literary series are being published by the state publishers Mastackaja Litaratura and Bielaruś as well as topic-centered magazines like Nastaŭnickaja hazieta, Źviazda, Rodnaje Slova, Litaratura i Mastactva, (please find the abundant continuation yourself). Those are accessible in libraries in every village. The topic-centered spontaneous publications (not making part of any series) of those state publishers are usually initiated and funded by the Ministry of Communication (e.g. the recent edition of the Carmen Bisontis—Pieśnia pra Zubra).

3) Even the state television channels Belarus 1 (General), Belarus 2 (Films), Belarus 3 (Culture), Belarus 4 (Regional News), Belarus 5 (Sports) broadcast in Belarusan. The channel Belarus 5 (Sports) even comments sport events in Belarusian **on live air**. This fact completely tramples down ◊Impersonator◊'s misobservation that the official authorities are the main source of debelarusization in the country. Local press is often published in Belarusan. In my town (Bialyničy), the regional newspaper is published in Belarusan (cf. Zara nad Drućciu: zara.by )

4) Local and nationwide literary reviews, competitions and readings are held in Belarusan and concentrate publics of different ages. In my town (Bialyničy) alone, we are going to celebrate the National Writer's Day (Dzień bielaruskaha piśmienstva) in three weeks, celebrated every year since 1994 every time in different city/town. It is held in Belarusan language and will include the awarding of the National Literary Prize, as well as other accompanying artefacts (publishing poetry collection of the laureats and participants etc.). Such initiatives are usually state-funded, and they popularize Belarusian language on both national and international levels. You can imagine the whole volume of such type of events on the country scale.

5) Exploring internal richness of the Belarusian language, hundreds of dialectological and ethnographic trips are organized by Belarusian State University, Academy of Sciences and Belarusian TV (BielTelieRadyjoKampanija), not to mentions other regional projects. Those expeditions are usually state-funded and their purposes are usually to gather 1) dialectally rich speech samples 2) regional ethnographic content (songs, tales, legends). Two next links give examples.

- Vadzim Škliaryk from Academy of Sciences about their ethnographic trip into Palieśsie (with sound samples) https://philology.by/u-hlyb-paliessia

- Aksana Viečar from Belarusian TV : "Napierad u minulaje" (‘fast-forward into the past’) about gathering folk songs (Belarus 3 any Sunday around 10AM, so far >500 villages and songs) and "Nacyjanaĺny chit-parad" (Belarus 3 any Sunday around 11AM) about popularizing these very songs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhmAGshgGSI (final song at 22:42)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-KQvNX5zps


6) Belarusian National Library (https://nlb.by/upload/iblock/02a/biblioteka.jpg and http://moscowalk.ru/images/2013...ka/minsk19.jpg ) ­— a modern storage for Belarusan content on physical support. It has been built within the latest 26 years and by official authorities. Its role is to store Belarusan physical and digital documents, repair and restore damaged documents, acquire Belarusan manuscripts all over the world and organize scientific and educational exchanges and round tables. Among others, it contains unpublished manuscripts of Belarusan poets, yet to be deciphered, Skorina's (proto)-Belarusan (=proto-Ukraininan = Ruthenian) books of 1522 and ancient Belarusan Arabic manuscripts (XIV c).

Conclusion: not only private and marginal initiatives, but also (and first of all) state-funded television, press, research centers, publishers and events favor and promote Belarusan language. Your intention, ◊Impersonator◊, to dissociate the Belarusan language from its country (along with its flag) is regrettable, it owes a lot to this land.

Personally, ◊Impersonator◊, I think, you are trying to create a precedent out of a non-event.

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Impersonator Impersonator 29日前, 編集 29日前 2020年8月20日 7:19:51 UTC, 編集 2020年8月20日 7:24:39 UTC link 固定リンク

Thanks for your comment!

If the other community members are not supportive, I won't push the matter further right now.

However, I'd like to comment on a few flaws in your reasoning (especially since you directly attack what I'm saying and I feel I need to defend myself).


> Tatoeba is a project around languages
> so any arguments other than linguistic
> are to be disregarded **by definition**.

This is not true. "How to represent the language" is NOT a linguistic argument, and it can't be a linguistic argument.

It's sociolinguistic at best, and sociolinguistics studies how languages and politics overlap.

It's impossible to make *any* judgement about *any* flag using linguistic arguments only. This is *neccessarily* a non-linguistic discussion.


> I think it is only possible
> to mention the white-red-white
> flag when this totem becomes
> back just a flag and when we
> are able to make a cold-minded,
> weighted decision.

You fail to notice that red-green flag has, similarly, acquired different meaning compared to the meaning it used to have.

In the past, it could be used as a more-or-less neutral flag. Nowadays, it is not.

It's similarly impossible to use red-green flag and pretend it's a "cold-minded, weighted decision". It's not.

(Also, there has been a lot of critique about "cold-minded" decision-making coming from people writing about social justice. Basically, limiting the discussion to "cold-minded" decisions means we limit the people making decisions to the privileged few, because you can only be cold-minded if you're not emotionally invested — something only privileged people can have.)


> Just as Wikipedia does, Tatoeba
> tries to reflect the existing
> situation and not to create new
> habits (in Wikipedia terms: no
> original research).

You're confusing the way corpus is formed (which, indeed, should be representative of the language) with Tatoeba in general.

Tatoeba in general *does* introduce a lot of new habits, starting from the idea of the project in general to flags (which Tatoeba allows even creating from scratch).


> it is a feasible matter if there exists
> one-to-one language-to-country correspondence.
> That is the case of the Belarusan language

Not really. The Belarusian state we know now is a de jure bilingual state, so the flag corresponds to the two languages. It can just as well stand for Russian (and, in fact, it does in some contexts).


> adopting — in somehow juridically
> significant manner

This statement tacitly assumes that only "juridically significant" things matter, which is not really true.

You know perfectly well that Belarusians were de facto very limited in what they could do in a "juridically significant manner". Requiring only "juridically significant" things is dishonest.


> 2. I think ◊Impersonator◊ misunderstood
> the terms "varieties" or "variants" as
> mentioned by Tatoeba guidelines.

In fact, Tatoeba guidelines mention neither. It's the terms I've used *myself* for the explanation of Tatoeba rules. If you want to be nitpicky about the terms, please at least check what you're commenting. https://en.wiki.tatoeba.org/art...nguage-request


> (My role as a professional linguist
> is also to disseminate knowledge,
> so please bear with me mumbling a little bit.)

Before "disseminating knowledge" it would be nice if you double-checked what you're disseminating.

(BTW I also majored in linguistics, so I'm pretty sure the way I've used the terms is not incorrect. 'Varieties' is broad enough to cover a lot of different use cases — that's why I've used this word.)


> to state that they have different
> number of cases, differently
> distribute genders across nouns,
> use different cases and prepositions
> with the same verbs[...] THIS IS NOT THE CASE!

You're arguing with yourself. You've given the word 'varieties' a different meaning from what I've used, and started to argue with your own meaning.

What I've said was: when I asked for the red-green flag 10 years ago, when Belarusian was added to Tatoeba, I've assumed I'm asking only about narkamaŭka. I've never intended this flag to be used for taraškievica or Belarusian in general. That's what I've meant.


> The ISO code is correctly attributed
> to the unitary and undivided Belarusan language.

I've never said it wasn't!

What I've said was: 10 years ago, when Belarusian was added to Tatoeba, there was no rule about ISO codes. (Toki Pona and CycL, added at that time, are treated as 'exceptions' now, but they weren't exceptions back then.)


> ANOTHER RELATED ISSUES

Things should be shown in context.

Sure, there are some books and TV programs in Belarusian. But if you compare it to the state *before* the introduction of Russian as the official language, you'll see that what we have now is much more limited.

deniko deniko 2020年8月18日 2020年8月18日 9:44:19 UTC link 固定リンク

Just want to say I wholeheartedly support this proposition.

TRANG TRANG 29日前 2020年8月19日 21:39:06 UTC link 固定リンク

** What's New on Tatoeba? - Your biweekly recap #23 **

(What's New on Tatoeba will be published biweekly until the end of August.)


KODOEBA EVENT

※ Kodoeba ended last week, on Monday, August 10th.

※ There will be a blog post to summarize what was achieved during the event.


UPDATES

※ The menu dropdowns are no longer hidden behind the private message sidebar. Thanks to Ricardo14 for reporting the issue and Trang for fixing it.

※ Various regressions have been fixed. Thanks to CK, Ricardo14 and jpear1 for reporting them and to rumpelstilzchen for fixing them.

※ The search results page is now responsive and nicer to view on mobile. Thanks to Trang for implementing this and to CK, gillux and rumpelstilzchen for their helpful feedback.

※ The tooltips that display dates are now more accurate as they indicate the timezone (UTC). Thanks to AlanF_US for reporting the issue and to polkadotazn (one of our Kodoeba participants) for working on it.


ON THE WALL

※ MisterTrouser reminded us about a feature request that would allow specifying the number of words when searching for sentences: https://tatoeba.org/eng/wall/show_message/35723

※ CK announced that we have a new German voice: https://tatoeba.org/eng/wall/show_message/35770

※ Ricardo wondered if we should force people to add a comment whenever they tag sentences: https://tatoeba.org/eng/wall/show_message/35784

※ mccarras asked if it's useful to fulfill vocabulary request by adding sentences that slightly differ from the request: https://tatoeba.org/eng/wall/show_message/35804

※ earthsophagus asked several questions that other new members might also ask themselves: https://tatoeba.org/eng/wall/show_message/35745

※ Impersonator suggested changing the Belarusian language icon: https://tatoeba.org/eng/wall/show_message/35794

※ deniko asked if we should get rid of the flags altogether:
https://tatoeba.org/eng/wall/show_message/35800


LANGUAGES

※ Tatoeba is supporting a new language: Plains Cree.

※ We have been discussing how to give more recognition to people who translate the website UI: https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/2481

As usual, we thank everyone who helped to translate the website, but perhaps in the future, we integrate something in Tatoeba to better acknowledge this work!

----------

If you'd like to help to the development of Tatoeba, report issues, or are just curious, have a look at the GitHub repository.

If you want to help us translate the website to your language, you can join us on Transifex: https://www.transifex.com/tatoe...ite/dashboard/ and check this article on the wiki https://en.wiki.tatoeba.org/art...e-translation.

If you're especially happy with one of the updates, don't hesitate to personally thank our developers :) They're working in the shadow but they'll be glad to hear your feedback.

----------

Last recap: https://tatoeba.org/eng/wall/show_message/35716
See this recap on the blog: https://blog.tatoeba.org/2020/0...weekly-23.html

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Ricardo14 Ricardo14 29日前 2020年8月19日 23:49:38 UTC link 固定リンク

Thank you!

Ricardo14 Ricardo14 2020年8月16日 2020年8月16日 23:08:17 UTC link 固定リンク

I've noticed that some people tag sentences as @not a sentence, @change, etc., but don't leave any comment, which means that someone else will have to leave a comment and wait some days before taking action. Is there a way to force users who use such tags to leave a comment suggesting a correction or even posting something like "Not a sentence. Please change it" or automatize such a thing?

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Pfirsichbaeumchen Pfirsichbaeumchen 2020年8月16日 2020年8月16日 23:59:03 UTC link 固定リンク

Sometimes I do that too, namely when a sentence should be changed, but I can't think of a really good suggestion at that time. I tag it anyway so I won't lose sight of the sentence and can come back later. In other cases, maybe people want a corpus maintainer to look at a sentence without engaging in discussions. I've never thought of it as a problem.

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Ricardo14 Ricardo14 2020年8月17日 2020年8月17日 3:48:12 UTC link 固定リンク

Some people complain when I do something when there's no comment :/ Maybe I should just "follow" the tags?

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CK CK 2020年8月17日, 編集 2020年8月17日 2020年8月17日 4:03:31 UTC, 編集 2020年8月17日 4:04:08 UTC link 固定リンク

TRANG asks corpus maintainers not to edit sentences until at least 14 days after a comment goes unanswered, so if there is no comment, all a corpus maintainer can do is to add a comment if there is only a tag and then wait 2 weeks.

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Ricardo14 Ricardo14 2020年8月17日 2020年8月17日 4:26:12 UTC link 固定リンク

> so if there is no comment

That's why I suggest a way to "force" comments if someone links a sentence as @change, @delete, @delete maybe, @not a sentence, etc :)

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Aiji Aiji 30日前 2020年8月19日 10:10:56 UTC link 固定リンク

I suggest you to kindly ask people to do so in the cases that are problematic to you, by explaining what it is problematic. I think that's a better approach than "forcing" anything.
Since a tag has a meaning in itself, there are many cases where a comment is not necessary. For example, marafon has tagged dozens of French sentences @change for me without leaving a comment, but the "what to change" was so obvious that I didn't need any comment. If it's not that obvious, I ask in the comment "why this was tagged" to the author of the tag directly. Same goes for "unlink" sometimes, etc.

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Ricardo14 Ricardo14 29日前 2020年8月19日 15:57:08 UTC link 固定リンク

Thank you! :)

Thanuir Thanuir 2020年8月17日 2020年8月17日 5:18:16 UTC link 固定リンク

"not a sentence"-tunniste ei välttämättä vaadi mitään toimintaa. Tietokannassa on monta "lausetta", jotka eivät ole oikeita lauseita.

PaulP PaulP 2020年8月17日 2020年8月17日 8:35:13 UTC link 固定リンク

Often a non-sentence is a translation of another non-sentence. So what kind of comment should I put? „Change this into a sentence as soon as the original has been changed”?

It seems that there is no general policy. Some admins make them red, others tag them, others just delete them.

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Thanuir Thanuir 2020年8月17日 2020年8月17日 9:59:19 UTC link 固定リンク

Ehkä tämä auttaa päättämään, mitä poistaa ja mitä jättää, ja kuinka paljon asiasta kannattaa keskustella: https://blog.tatoeba.org/2010/0...f-content.html

sharptoothed sharptoothed 2020年8月17日 2020年8月17日 8:47:51 UTC link 固定リンク

* Tatoeba Top 30 Languages Interactive Graphs * have been updated:

https://tatoeba.j-langtools.com/igraph/
https://tatoeba.j-langtools.com/igraph/share.html
https://tatoeba.j-langtools.com.../index-14.html

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Ricardo14 Ricardo14 2020年8月17日 2020年8月17日 9:35:26 UTC link 固定リンク

Thank you!

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sharptoothed sharptoothed 30日前 2020年8月19日 7:39:16 UTC link 固定リンク

You're welcome :-)

deniko deniko 2020年8月18日 2020年8月18日 9:42:52 UTC link 固定リンク

Has the possibility of getting rid of language flags ever been considered, and if yes, what was the final decision (if there was one)? I believe the ISO codes will do a better job.

Obviously, inspired by the Impersonator's post about the Belarusian flag, just didn't want to rain on his parade mentioning another possibility there, as these are two separate topics.

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Impersonator Impersonator 2020年8月18日 2020年8月18日 10:01:03 UTC link 固定リンク

This idea is brought up from time to time, and it's usually dismissed. Here're what Trang says:

> «Removing flags doesn't solve everything.
> It only replaces one problem with another.
> Without flags, you'll have, for sure, people
> telling you they have a harder time spotting
> sentences in their desired language and
> protesting to get the flags back. Flags are
> one of the core elements of Tatoeba's UI.
> You cannot just remove them and expect that nobody will care.
>
> It is a design choice and yes, it costs us, once
> in a while, very intense and even violent
> discussions. But it's a price we have agreed
> to pay in exchange of the possibility to give our
> languages a visual identity. You don't have
> to agree with this choice»

Source: https://tatoeba.org/ukr/wall/sh...#message_29992

> I believe the ISO codes will do a better job.

I personally don't like ISO codes because they're in Latin script, which is not really neutral.

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deniko deniko 2020年8月18日 2020年8月18日 10:05:51 UTC link 固定リンク

Thanks. So, basically, proposed and dismissed.

mccarras mccarras 2020年8月15日 2020年8月15日 15:40:13 UTC link 固定リンク

This is such an amazing open-source find. I am not a programmer but am very detail-oriented and would love to contribute however I can.

What kind of partnerships do you have? Have you ever approached DuoLingo, for example, to see if they'd be willing to share their sentences? They have some hilarious ones. My favorite du jour is Wakker worden, schappenmensen! (Dutch for Wake up, sheep people!)

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Thanuir Thanuir 2020年8月16日 2020年8月16日 6:42:11 UTC link 固定リンク

Duolingon lauseet käännöksineen lienevät arvokas osa firmaa. Tuskin he ovat halukkaita sitä jakamaan. Muutenkin hyvin suljettu ympäristö. Jos haluaa ehdottaa yhteistyötä, kannatanee mieluummin lähestyä jotakin avoimella filosofialla toimivaa epäkaupallista toimijaa.

Yorwba Yorwba 2020年8月16日 2020年8月16日 11:03:41 UTC link 固定リンク

I agree with Thanuir. And even if Duolingo agreed to share their sentences with us, we might not be able to accept them all at once, since there's currently no established process for importing large numbers of sentences while also ensuring quality control.

On the other hand, if someone wants to use sentences from Tatoeba in their own project, there's no need to formally establish a partnership, since the Creative Commons license used by Tatoeba already allows them to do that without asking for permission.

PS #8749118

adrianxu adrianxu 2020年8月13日 2020年8月13日 20:38:00 UTC link 固定リンク

How can I delete a wrong translation?

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Pfirsichbaeumchen Pfirsichbaeumchen 2020年8月13日, 編集 2020年8月13日 2020年8月13日 21:02:51 UTC, 編集 2020年8月13日 21:03:37 UTC link 固定リンク

You can edit it to correct it. If it seems irreparable, you can leave a comment "delete please".

Thanuir Thanuir 2020年8月14日 2020年8月14日 5:25:34 UTC link 固定リンク

Hvis setningen er riktig men er ikke en god oversettelse til den den er lenka til, det er bedre å la setningen bli men fjerne lenka (eller be om noen å fjerne lenka).

earthsophagus earthsophagus 2020年8月9日, 編集 2020年8月9日 2020年8月9日 19:56:15 UTC, 編集 2020年8月9日 20:01:03 UTC link 固定リンク

I am happy to have found this site -- I tried a couple time to make something like this but don't have the technical skill. I have a few comments/questions. I suspect all have come up before, but didn't see answers in FAQ.


* is it possible to search the Wall?

* When looking at a sentence, can one see all the tags that have been applied to it? E.g. #3451959, [have you ever noticed how many near-anagrams 6 first digits in pi come up in daily life or is it just me?] I think I got there by following "Compound sentence" tag. Now, I'd like to know if it has been tagged by a French tag similar to "Compound Sentence", but I don't know/can't guess how a French speaker would tag it -- can I see all the tags applied to that sentence?

* I'm generally interested in longer sentences -- it it seems like an obvious feature to add to the "Advance Search" page (At least/At most X words). Is it not feasible?

* It seems to me like set-up with Shtooka tools is a hindrance, and the demo of how to get crystal-clear recorinds is a bit intimidating. I don't even own a microphone! So, I don't know if your goal is to have all recordings very clear -- I'd see a value in a variety of situations, like talking with other voices in the background, talking with a mouthful of food, talking with uhms, pauses, excitedly. (My interest is as a language learner, not an archivist). Have you hashed over this topic and decided a goal of Tatoeba is to have recording uniformly high quality? And would you be interested in easier to use audio-gathering tool at the expense of lower sound quality? (and probably also at the expense of attributing to a specific tatoeba user without a fair amount of programming.)

* do you solicit/accept "help pay for hosting" money contributions?

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Ricardo14 Ricardo14 2020年8月9日, 編集 2020年8月9日 2020年8月9日 21:43:42 UTC, 編集 2020年8月9日 21:44:28 UTC link 固定リンク

> I don't even own a microphone!

I'm using my webcam to record sentences for now.

Donations - https://tatoeba.org/eng/donate

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earthsophagus earthsophagus 2020年8月10日 2020年8月10日 0:54:19 UTC link 固定リンク

Thank you!

CK CK 2020年8月9日, 編集 2020年8月9日 2020年8月9日 23:05:05 UTC, 編集 2020年8月9日 23:09:02 UTC link 固定リンク

* is it possible to search the Wall?

Not really, However, if you download the weekly export of Wall posts, you can search them offline if you know how to.

* When looking at a sentence, can one see all the tags that have been applied to it?

All tags on a given sentence are shown on the right side of the sentence's page.

* I'm generally interested in longer sentences

You can use the advanced search to find the longest sentences, though it's not possible to easily find sentences with "At least/At most X words."

Here is a pre-filled in advanced search form set up to find the French sentences with the most words that also have English translations. Just go here and input a French word or phrase, or skip inputting a French word and click the "Search" button to find the longest French sentences.

https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentenc...rt_reverse=yes

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earthsophagus earthsophagus 2020年8月10日 2020年8月10日 0:57:09 UTC link 固定リンク

Thank you * 3

Yorwba Yorwba 2020年8月10日 2020年8月10日 19:06:06 UTC link 固定リンク

> would you be interested in easier to use audio-gathering tool at the expense of lower sound quality? (and probably also at the expense of attributing to a specific tatoeba user without a fair amount of programming.)

gillux made a proof-of-concept tool for recording audio a while ago when the question of using mobile devices for recording came up: https://tatoeba.org/eng/wall/sh...#message_33176 Was something like that what you had in mind?

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earthsophagus earthsophagus 2020年8月12日 2020年8月12日 23:30:49 UTC link 固定リンク

What I envisioned was an independent web page, not so much to enable mobile as to get rid of the need for installing shtooka, naming files, emailing, etc. I was thinking of attracting sentences from casual contributors, including cell phone users without a PC.

Using the Web Audio API as gillux mentioned, I'd picture a simple site aping shtooka recorder. User would select the language to read in, and the web site would pick a batch of sentences that don't have audio in that language.

I haven't ever written a usable web site, so I don't really know what's involved technically. And a site that attained popularity might start to incur expenses -- but I guess that would be a good problem to have.

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CK CK 2020年8月12日, 編集 2020年8月12日 2020年8月12日 23:47:37 UTC, 編集 2020年8月12日 23:50:21 UTC link 固定リンク

This is a project that does somethings like what you are suggesting.

https://commonvoice.mozilla.org/en

You can listen to some of their sentences to get an idea of what the sound quality of the files are like. You can also try recording a few sentences.

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earthsophagus earthsophagus 2020年8月13日 2020年8月13日 2:52:37 UTC link 固定リンク

Intriguing. I wasn't aware of that project.

The recording UI is something like what I had in mind for Tatoeba to gather sentences. I like the 5 sentence at a time unit.

For a hypothetical flow -- a similar site could gather 5 sentences, using a stock of tatoeba sentences without recordings, create a zip of between 1 and 5 mp3s (depending how many sentences a user skipped), and generate a URL for the user to give you to incorporate. If users have to log in to tatoeba to give you the URLs, maybe it mitigates the possibility of flooding your in queue with junk.

sharptoothed sharptoothed 2020年8月10日 2020年8月10日 11:50:30 UTC link 固定リンク

** Stats & Graphs **

Tatoeba Stats, Graphs & Charts have been updated:
https://tatoeba.j-langtools.com/allstats/

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AlanF_US AlanF_US 2020年8月10日 2020年8月10日 22:49:03 UTC link 固定リンク

Thanks!

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sharptoothed sharptoothed 2020年8月12日 2020年8月12日 7:01:11 UTC link 固定リンク

You're welcome :-)

Ricardo14 Ricardo14 2020年8月12日 2020年8月12日 21:24:39 UTC link 固定リンク

Thank you!

driini driini 2020年8月10日 2020年8月10日 21:49:25 UTC link 固定リンク

Do we have a map of Tatoeba-Wiki? Just to know, what do we have and what do we want to describe? And where to put or find it.
Maybe it's more or less the FAQ-main-page (when the links to the translations will work).

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TRANG TRANG 2020年8月11日 2020年8月11日 20:57:17 UTC link 固定リンク

I would say the English main page is the map you're looking for: https://en.wiki.tatoeba.org/

Unless you are looking for a page that lists *all* the pages that exist in the wiki?

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driini driini 2020年8月12日 2020年8月12日 12:31:34 UTC link 固定リンク

It's because I'm not sure how to going on by translating the wiki. Because I know we have for instance the FAQ translated on Transifex but not transferred(or linked) to the wiki. Are there other somewhere hidden websites? Or would it be a good idea to edit/use the empty german mainpage, at least to collect there the links to the sites already translated to german?