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TRANG TRANG 19 de junho de 2018 19 de junho de 2018 15:14:11 UTC link Link permanente

**Have a lawyer rewrite our Terms of Use?**

Tatoeba has been functioning all these years with terms of use that were, I think, more or less copy-pasted from Wikipedia and that haven't changed at all ever since we introduced them.

While the legal aspect is definitely not the sexiest part of a project (to me at least), it's not something we can completely ignore. Our terms of use are outdated and we will need to update/rewrite them. But we're not legal experts...

Some time ago I tried to inform myself how much it would cost to have a lawyer rewrite our terms of use.

I reached out to a network of lawyers and spoke with one of them to explain what Tatoeba is and why we need to update the terms of use so that they could give me a quotation. First quotation was 3000€, then I had another one at 1800€.

Either way, it's pretty expensive. It's definitely not the kind of expense we're used to do.

So I'm wondering, do you guys think it's worth to spend up to 3000€ on our terms of use? Or do you feel it'd be a waste? Do you have ideas on how we can consolidate the legal aspect of Tatoeba without having to spend that much?

If you have any opinion/suggestion about this, let me know. Thank you!

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Ricardo14 Ricardo14 19 de junho de 2018 19 de junho de 2018 17:14:37 UTC link Link permanente

> do you guys think it's worth to spend up to 3000€ on our terms of use? Or do you feel it'd be a waste?

Yes, it is since Tatoeba is becoming "more important" and relevant to other projects (now Mozilla is our partner). Also, Tatoeba aims to collect sentences and translations in any sentences **to be//that can be used in other projects.** As far as we want to get more consolidated as a Foundation and have more partners, it'd be great.

> Do you have ideas on how we can consolidate the legal aspect of Tatoeba without having to spend that much?

Facebook is the best way to **try** to arrange some people that **maybe** would help us... However, it would spend time - we'd have to "catch their attention", explain how the website works and its goals and effort (how many of us can do all that?)

deniko deniko Criada em 20 de junho de 2018; editada em em 20 de junho de 2018 Criada em 20 de junho de 2018 09:38:25 UTC; editada em 20 de junho de 2018 09:38:48 UTC link Link permanente

I don't really know whether rewriting Terms of Use is that important.

If you think about using a big portion of your grant money on that, I'd say use it on your development team instead, it seems like a better investment. I might be wrong though.

Can you probably ask Mozilla whether they are happy with tatoeba's terms of use? This might be a way to get a free consultation and introduce some changes.

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TRANG TRANG 22 de junho de 2018 22 de junho de 2018 09:46:11 UTC link Link permanente

> Can you probably ask Mozilla whether they are happy with tatoeba's terms of use?

Mozilla were actually the ones suggesting we invest part of the grant in a lawyer, and they know it can be very expensive. While they have a legal team, they are not a law firm. They cannot provide consultation.

They were not the first ones to suggest we hire a lawyer though. This was suggested by tommy_san some years ago:
https://groups.google.com/forum...s/9PYqra3d_E4J

Aiji Aiji 22 de junho de 2018 22 de junho de 2018 14:46:18 UTC link Link permanente

That depends on your concerns and on your vision for the future.
First of all, it might be a good idea to have a clear idea of what subjects need to be treated in the "Terms of Use". In the following, I will mix everything up, but it is generally a good deal to separate Terms of Use from Privacy Policy from etc. (depending on what you need to include) .

For Tatoeba, mainly it would be about Data and Privacy policy, and Intellectual Property protection. Beside intellectual property, Terms of Use should -at least- cover :
- How the site can be used and how it cannot be used (permissions and limits on uses).
- Limits on liability (like tommy_san seemed to suggest in the link your provided).
- How conflicts will be resolved.

Privacy policy should cover:
- What information is collected, how it is collected, how it might be shared (state that they are not if that is the case).
- The way the site protect confidentiality and security of the information collected (most important).
- How cookies and other technologies (if relevant) are used.
- If relevant, how the website allow user to access the site through third party services (I think there is no such possibility on Tatoeba, right?).
- Finally, how the privacy policy may be changed, and how the user will be notified of such changes (most important as well, but easy to write.)
- There is also this thing about the information of children under 13 years old. I don't remember the details exactly, but maybe it was about sites that uses real personal information (name, etc.). That would to be confirmed. For safety purpose, writing something like "Le site ne prévoit aucunement la collecte ou le stockage de renseignement relatifs à toute personne âgée de 13 ans ou moins." would not hurt and probably put us in the safezone for this point. (Again, to be confirmed)

There would be other small things to add, like the interruption of service for maintenance (doesn't really matter for Tatoeba since we do not deliver goods or paid services), the "Ces CGU sont soumises à la loi française. etc.". But that would be secondary, I think (except the last part about which entity is competent in case of legal issue).


As to how to do that, now, that is the part that depends on the concerns and vision.
Although Privacy Policies should NOT be blindly copied from other website, it is possible to write almost all parts of Terms of Use (and privacy policy) by doing some research online, looking at French (since French law will prevail) websites providing or not delivery of goods and services, and studying how to do that a little bit. That would probably tedious and time-consuming.
If you're highly concerned about the potential for legal liability, it might be prudent to consult an attorney in drafting the terms of use.

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Hans07 Hans07 23 de junho de 2018 23 de junho de 2018 14:49:59 UTC link Link permanente

My opinion: wait and see. See, what others do, what happens. If you ask lawyers, they tend to complicate matters.

TRANG TRANG 27 de junho de 2018 27 de junho de 2018 20:00:14 UTC link Link permanente

Thanks for the elaborate answer, Aiji.

I don't think Tatoeba is at high risk legally speaking, not for the next couple of years at least. Maybe because my level of paranoia is very low. But I guess as long as we're not making money and we're not threatening anyone's business, we're rather safe.

I do hope Tatoeba becomes more and more widespread however. That more people will know about it, use it, contribute to it. Perhaps one day, having good terms of use will be more critical.

But right now, hiring a lawyer is more because: if not, who else is gonna this? Like you mentioned, it's probably possible for someone who hasn't studied or practiced law to write them, with enough research. But I don't know anyone would be confident and happy to take this responsibility... I certainly wouldn't be.

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Aiji Aiji 28 de junho de 2018 28 de junho de 2018 13:37:34 UTC link Link permanente

If you're level of paranoia is low (which is a good thing in my opinion), you might also consider the following.

If you hire somebody to write Terms of Use *now* that they are not critical, be sure that you will not need to hire someone again to modify them when they become critical (if that day comes), unless you want to spend twice the expense ^^

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AlanF_US AlanF_US 29 de junho de 2018 29 de junho de 2018 12:31:52 UTC link Link permanente

Well put.