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{{vm.sentence.expandLabel}} Menos traduções

Gulo_Luscus 17 de novembro de 2019 17 de novembro de 2019 00:50:39 UTC

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How to trigger Turkish people? Just tell us you are very hungry :)

JGEN 17 de novembro de 2019 17 de novembro de 2019 02:22:11 UTC

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Gulo_Luscus. I think should be at least 3 or 5 Turkish translations in my opinion.

Gulo_Luscus 17 de novembro de 2019 17 de novembro de 2019 02:43:56 UTC

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@JGEN

<<<
Gulo_Luscus. I think should be at least 3 or 5 Turkish translations in my opinion.
>>>

I used only the question structure (not "you are very hungry?"); my sentences are in the correct tense, and all sound natural. I see no harm in adding them all if all are used by native speakers.

I invite @soliloquist @deyta and @tulin to check my sentences and add more if I've missed any so far.

soliloquist 17 de novembro de 2019 17 de novembro de 2019 11:54:18 UTC

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Good job! I added 15 more alternatives. #7873568

I also linked all the alternatives to #8328540 (it covers both singular and plural you) so that they would be seen in sharptoothed's alternative translation charts.

Long story short: https://i.ibb.co/xHQHnQV/milletacac.png

tulin 17 de novembro de 2019 17 de novembro de 2019 15:12:39 UTC

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Ben hayatımda bu kadar açlık görmedim:)
Tebrik ederim. Cümleler benim önümde yazılı olsa bile birbirine ķarıştırır, eksik yazardım. Sizde birkaç harf hatası var yalnızca.
Açıktı->acıktı

Gulo_Luscus 17 de novembro de 2019 17 de novembro de 2019 15:26:35 UTC

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:) Teşekkür ederim, düzelttim onları.
(I corrected the four typos tulin pointed out)

deyta Criada em 18 de novembro de 2019; editada em em 18 de novembro de 2019 Criada em 18 de novembro de 2019 13:15:47 UTC; editada em 18 de novembro de 2019 13:16:41 UTC

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bir ara ufak bir deneme yapmıştım.
https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/8092871

sırf bu cümlede yüzlerce varyant-kombinasyon-karşılık eklenebilirdi.
https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentenc...omment-1115726

biraz program kullanılsa kolayca absürt sayıda cümleye ulaşılabilir.

Inego 1 de dezembro de 2019 1 de dezembro de 2019 02:33:59 UTC

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I know all those Turkish translations have been added by hand, but, really, they seem as generated by recursive iteration or something like that.

Gulo_Luscus 1 de dezembro de 2019 1 de dezembro de 2019 03:59:20 UTC

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@Inego

“I wouldn't let some recursive iteration rob me of my glory!”

And besides, I am not the developer one)

Well, it is possible and actually very easy for a Turkish contributor to add more than 100 translations to a single sentence in general. Consequently, more words mean more translations. I added more than 240 translations to “Are you very hungry? and it is possible to add more than 600 to “Are you very much hungry?”

However, we do not have the energy to do it. We usually add one (sometimes two due to plural "you") translation for each sentence. That is why the Turkish corpus does not have the most sentences on Tatoeba.

Inego 1 de dezembro de 2019 1 de dezembro de 2019 04:05:45 UTC

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Yes, some languages allow much freedom in rephrasing the same sentence in multiple ways, and the longer the sentence is, the more substitutions/combinations are possible. But I see something of a problem here, if we really will strive to add all those combinations: if one, say, is looking for examples of a couple of words for a given language, one would be overwhelmed by the same sentence repeating in its various combinations over and over. So, in this sense, the "value" of search results would be watered down.One would always have to scroll through multiple pages of search results to find *really" different sentences.

Gulo_Luscus 1 de dezembro de 2019 1 de dezembro de 2019 04:31:57 UTC

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The idea of adding all possible translations to sentences should not harm a project whose concept is to collect sentences and their translations, as long as the sentences are considered to be OK by Tatoeba guidelines.

Modern problems require modern solutions.
If the search results are to cause problems, developers can come up with solutions. I am just a mere contributor.

Inego Criada em 1 de dezembro de 2019; editada em em 1 de dezembro de 2019 Criada em 1 de dezembro de 2019 05:00:43 UTC; editada em 1 de dezembro de 2019 05:02:38 UTC

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@Gulo_Luscus
> Modern problems require modern solutions.

Yes, in theory you're right, but in the reality this site is run by the efforts of the community. Programmatically isolating clusters of semantically identical sentences in search results seems to be a daunting technical task, which I doubt can be feasible outside of a tech giant like Google or Facebook.

Gulo_Luscus 1 de dezembro de 2019 1 de dezembro de 2019 05:12:00 UTC

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>It's likely enough to give one or just a few, especially if conversions from one >example to others is something that any moderately-competent second language >learner could figure out to do.

I have to disagree because we cannot decide what is "proper" for other languages that we do not speak fluently. In Turkish, natives can change the word orders and sound very natural whereas learners usually sound weird when they try to do the same thing.

Even for Russian, which I have been learning, I would like to see all possible translations of the verb "to go" because I (or anyone else) may not figure them out by myself. Like this: #8348726

https://youtu.be/a-ZksypPgE0

Inego Criada em 1 de dezembro de 2019; editada em em 1 de dezembro de 2019 Criada em 1 de dezembro de 2019 05:24:42 UTC; editada em 1 de dezembro de 2019 05:41:46 UTC

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Yes, sure, this is not a trivial problem. On the one hand, one would like to know all possible ways to express some notion or idea in a given language, and on the other hand, trying to display them all for a single long sentence can lead to a combinatorial explosion of variants. So that's probably the matter of personal taste, conscience and responsibility of the author.

Gulo_Luscus 1 de dezembro de 2019 1 de dezembro de 2019 05:30:37 UTC

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>If you were a teacher, which do you think would be the best one or two for your >students? Do some of the patterns occur with a higher frequency than others?

are YOU very hungry
are you VERY hungry
are you very HUNGRY

Instead of this kind of stressing, we (generally) change the word orders in Turkish. We also do not need to use pronouns and we have singular and plural versions of "you". It is similar to Russian but more complicated.

And when we change the word orders, we usually need to change the words too because of suffixes.

That is why I cannot say my students which one is the perfect choice to go with. Different kinds of people use different versions based on their characteristic features and their moods— caring, ignoring, wondering, etc.

soliloquist 1 de dezembro de 2019 1 de dezembro de 2019 06:58:54 UTC

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All these alternatives may not sound equally natural, but they are grammatically acceptable. This was probably a record breaking attempt (the previous was #30341), and it's not all a bad thing having several examples of such large alternative translation groups in a 600K+ corpus to show the vast flexibility of the syntax. How else could we show learners this aspect of the language on Tatoeba? It definitely shouldn't be a habit or the norm, but I don't think anyone intends for this to happen.

Another approach might be to link such repetitive alternative translations to the most preferable same-language sentence (if they match of course) rather than to a foreign one, but there are people opposing same-language links, too. It's not possible to please everyone.

Gulo_Luscus Criada em 1 de dezembro de 2019; editada em em 1 de dezembro de 2019 Criada em 1 de dezembro de 2019 19:23:03 UTC; editada em 1 de dezembro de 2019 19:44:22 UTC

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It was actually not an attempt and is not an attempt anymore.

>How else could we show learners this aspect of the language on Tatoeba? It >definitely shouldn't be a habit or the norm, but I don't think anyone intends for this >to happen.

I agree with this. It summarizes my purpose.

I had also added several English sentences here #2827871 in a similar manner.

The funny thing is, karma hit me :/

A random(!) sentence on my main page:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9svk7...1-22_11_02.png

soliloquist 1 de dezembro de 2019 1 de dezembro de 2019 22:04:22 UTC

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> It was actually not an attempt and is not an attempt anymore.

OK, whatever. But I still reserve the right to set a new record (this time with a 4-figure group) if this one gets broken by another language in future. :-)

Inego 2 de dezembro de 2019 2 de dezembro de 2019 00:47:51 UTC

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@Gulo_Luscus

You can always fix your karma in the settings, either by enabling "Display a link to expand/collapse translations when there are too many translations." or even "Hide random sentence on the homepage" 😊