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  1. About sentence coming from the Tanaka corpus and still orphaned
    (I'm posting as a new thread so that it will be easier to see)


    What about this

    1. if you're a native speaker and you see a orphaned sentence that sounds unatural, you had a natural one
    2 - you post a command and tag asking for the deletion of the orphaned one.

    At the same time I'm going to see to not permit the translation of orphaned sentence, and to remove them from the search engine (which will have the consequence to also remove them from the 'random', as the random id is given by the search engine)

    What do you think?

    I know the easiest way would be to remove them directly and start again, but as Tatoeba is also used for editing the index of the www-jdict.
    • > 1. if you're a native speaker and you see a orphaned sentence that sounds unatural, you had a natural one (You mean "you *add* a natural one," right?)
      > 2 - you post a command and tag asking for the deletion of the orphaned one.

      I think there's no problem with this, although I'm quite sure that we won't actually delete many sentences because it's hard to decide that a sentence is absolutely unnatural.

      > At the same time I'm going to see to not permit the translation of orphaned sentence, and to remove them from the search engine

      I find this great!


      There will still be at least two problems.

      First, when a sentence has several translations, both owned and unowned ones, you'll need to visit each pages to see if the sentence is owned.

      Second, even if you don't show orphan sentences as a random sentence, they will still show up frequently as a translation of the random sentence, which will likely to give native Japanese speakers the impression that this must be an unreliable website.

      I think you can solve them both by making a new option "Display orphan sentences" in the settings page and set it "off" by default.
      • It's true that today you must visit each translation to see whether the sentence is owned. However, I imagine that it wouldn't be too hard to change the interface to display the owner (if any) next to each translation. That would be useful for several reasons.

        I agree with everything else you said.
        • Ah, yes. That would be really desirable, too!
    • I'd like to ask you if you really want us to spend our time deleting bad orphan sentences. I feel that adding new good sentences would be much more rewarding and profitable. There are so few native Japanese speakers here, and it takes much more time to judge whether a sentence is bad enough to be deleted than to make a new sentence (at least for me).

      I agree that owned unnatural sentences must be changed or deleted, but I'm reluctant to approve the idea that we delete bad orphan sentences. They will go to the "low reliability database" in the near future anyway, won't they?
  2. Hello,
    I believe it's clear enough that we need a corpus maintainer to take care of the Japanese database. I think bunbuku is ready to assume such a responsibility. She is polite, she's been correcting a lot of sentences (especially orphaned ones) and she's been with us for almost two years.
    http://tatoeba.org/pt_BR/user/profile/bunbuku

    So, any objections?
    • > we need a corpus maintainer to take care of the Japanese database

      This is absolute, self-evident truth! bunbuku-san is a perfect candidate for this job, I think. I'm for her.
      Also, if tommy_san will ever express his will to become a corpus maintainer, he has my vote, too.
    • No objection, but all of the approval there is. If she’s willing to take that responsibility, I’d be very glad to welcome her as our new corpus maintainer for Japanese as we’re in dire need of one.
    • I can't read Japanese, but those comments that she's written partially or entirely in English, in addition to the number of sentences she's contributed, suggest that she's a responsive, respectful, and valuable member of the community. +1 from me!
  3. [fra] Rappel !
    Merci de ne pas traduire les phrases orphelines (qui n'ont pas de propriétaire) car elles sont, par nature, suspectes puisque personne ne veut en assurer la paternité. La plupart sont des phrases peu naturelles ou médiocres, provenant du Corpus Tanaka.

    [epo]
    Bonvolu ne traduki orfajn frazojn (tiuj kiuj ne havas posedanton) ĉar ili estas kompreneble suspektindaj kiel neniu volas preni la patrecon de ili.
    La plejmulto de ili estas ne-naturaj aŭ malbonaj, devenante de la Tanaka frazaro.

    [eng] Reminder !
    Thank you not to translate orphaned sentences (these that have no owner) because they are, by nature, suspect since nobody wants to assume responsibility for them. Most of them are not so natural or poor, sourced from the Tanaka Corpus.
      • #
      • CK
      • CK
      • 1 day(s) ago
      I've read through almost all the English sentences from the Tanaka Corpus, only ignoring the very, very long entries which are not useful for the kinds of projects I use the Tatoeba Corpus for.

      I adopted the ones that I felt were useful for my students and sounded natural, and added OK tags to ones that were already adopted by others.

      There are likely a few OK sentences left in this group, but the percentage is likely very low.

      There will be a higher percentage of good unadopted Japanese sentences, since they haven't yet all been read by our Japanese native speakers.

      Bunbuku is systematically going through them, but it's a time-consuming job and she seems to be the only one doing it at this time, so it will take a while.

      When it comes to Japanese, an unadopted sentence is perhaps just as likely be correct as one submitted by a non-native Japanese speaker.
    • [eng]

      I agree with CK's comment about orphan Japanese sentences.
      I want to make Tatoeba a good tool to study Japanese, so I'm eager to know what learners of Japanese think about all those unadopted sentences.

      [jpn]

      アドプトされていない日本語の文については、ぼくもCKさんのおっしゃる通りだと思います。
      ぼくはタトエバを日本語学習に役立つサイトにしたいと思っているので、日本語学習者のみなさんがこれらの文についてどういうふうにお考えなのか、ぜひとも知りたいです。
      • I come across unadopted Japanese sentences fairly often. For the most part, they don't seem too bad and I use them as if they were correct. (As far as translating them: I can't remember coming across an unowned Japanese sentence which didn't already have an English translation, so no worries there.) I have run across some iffy sounding sentences, and I usually post a comment on those asking if they are correct or not.
      • It's good to hear that about unadopted Japanese sentences. I usually tend not to pay them any attention when looking for vocab examples, just in case they're wrong.
          • #
          • CK
          • CK
          • 1 day(s) ago
          kuma,

          This is still a safe policy. There are quite a few native-speaker owned Japanese sentences that you can use. Rather than learn from potentially poor sentences examples, it's probably safest to only study and translate from sentences owned by native speakers, and ignore unowned sentences and non-native produced sentences.
      • I've had good results using unowned Japanese sentences to study. The error rate that I've observed is quite low. On rare occasions I look at my flash cards later, realize something is strange, and ask a Japanese friend to see what they think. But this has only happened maybe 5 times in the last year, so overall I'm rather happy.

        (Also, the Japanese native speakers on this site who answer my questions and create example sentences have been a big help. I feel very lucky that they are around and active.)
      • I used to translate unadopted Japanese sentences I could understand. But then, after some alarming reports about the quality of those sentences Tommy and other Japanese members submitted, I decided to translate only the sentences created/owned by native speakers. That is, I avoid translating orphaned sentences and those owned by non-native speakers no matter how correct they look to me. As Tommy repeatedly pointed out in his messages, even grammatical Japanese sentences may still be absolutely unnatural and, thus, not just useless for a language learner (for a beginner, especially) but rather harmful. My Japanese level is simply not high enough to determine whether the sentence is good or not, so, as things now stand, I prefer to refrain from using/translating orphaned sentences and sentences owned by non-native speakers unless they tagged OK.
      • Ich finde viele der verwaisten japanischen Sätze seltsam und würde mir wünschen, daß Muttersprachler diese nach und nach durch natürliche, stilistisch einwandfreie Sätze ersetzten. Zum Beispiel hätte ich es für gut befunden, diesen Satz:

        http://tatoeba.org/deu/sentences/show/152508

        ohne viel Federlesens durch diesen:

        http://tatoeba.org/deu/sentences/show/2449219

        zu ersetzen, statt einen neuen hinzuzufügen.

        Meine grundlegende Meinung: Sätze, die zeigen, wie man sich möglichst nah am Englischen ausdrückt, sind nicht lehrreich und gehören getilgt.

        Trang hat mir in einer privaten Nachricht angekündigt, sich bald dazu zu äußern. Ich warte voller Ungeduld. ☺
      • Thank you all for your comments.

        I asked this because I thought there might be someone who's somehow making good use of those doubtful sentences, but it seems there aren't any. I'm still interested in whether there are any fans of orphan sentences (of any language). Please give me a reply if you're one of them.

        To those who don't distinguish between owned and unowned sentences, I strongly recommend you stop using Tatoeba that way unless you really want to waste your time. If you think that most of the orphan Japanese sentences are fine, that means you're not good enough at Japanese to judge. There are lots and lots of unnatural sentences that are literal translations of English, and many of them resemble the Japanese that beginners speak, so it might be especially difficult for native English speakers to find out what's wrong. It's true that most of them are good enough to make yourself understood. If you use them, most Japanese would understand you and say ニホンゴガオジョウズデスネー. But even so, serious learners must not try to learn from them.

        I'd recommend any users interested in this topic to read this thread where we discussed the similar matter three months ago:
        http://webcache.googleuserconte...clnk&gl=jp

        @Pfirsichbaeumchen
        I often don't feel like replacing an orphan sentence with my new one when I'm not sure if the sentence is really bad. You seem to trust us too much... we are only ordinary Japanese speakers. We can say "I wouldn't use this," but often we can't say "This is wrong." There might be lots of people who actually use the phrase I don't use. This is actually quite likely to happen since the divergence among speakers is significant. That's why I sometimes prefer leaving the original one as it is.

        I guess you want us to reduce the number of orphan sentences displayed on the site, but it'll take us centuries to correct the 123,741 sentences. I believe the only realistic way to protect learners from harmful sentences is, as I've written many times, to stop displaying them by default. If there is any serious reason that everybody should see them, then I'd suggest adding a warning message on every page of an orphan sentence such as "This sentence has no owner, which means its quality is doubtful. It could be harmful for your brain. It could even kill you!"
        • If the administrators support the idea that unowned sentences should not be translated, then I would think they should implement this policy via the user interface. Administrators, is there any reason why you wouldn't want the site software to prevent translation of an unowned sentence?
          • We've had some discussions similar to this one. I hope sysko can restore the wall so you can read them.
            • Would you be able to summarize the conclusions that you remember, the names of any of the participants, or when the discussions took place? Even if the wall were restored, it would be pretty hard to do a blind search for such a discussion. This is another reason why I'm really looking forward to the wiki going online.
              • > it would be pretty hard to do a blind search for such a discussion

                Not with a good Google search. :-)
                It's thread #15321.

                It's not exactly about orphaned sentences, but some of the ideas discussed there would be able to solve this issue, too.
              • It's here.
                http://webcache.googleuserconte...clnk&gl=en

                And "the other thread" sysko mentions is this one.
                http://webcache.googleuserconte...clnk&gl=en

                I'm really looking forward to the next version of Tatoeba, but since it seems that it takes a while until it completes, I think it'd be nice if something can be done for the orphan sentences with a little modification to the present version.
                • Thanks for the links!
        • When deciding whether to use an unowned sentence or not, the first question I ask is: is there a native-owned sentence that uses the same word I'm trying to learn? If so, I use that. If not, the unowned sentence will usually do.

          For me, it's about the words, and learning the words in context, even with questionable "beginner" grammar is more useful to me than learning the word without anything around it. Of course, natural grammar is the best and that's what I search for, but as a last resort, at least I can get a feel for the meaning of the word even if a native "wouldn't say it like that."
          • In that case, you can make a list of words and show it to us, then we can adopt or make some sentences using the words. We're here to help you. That's one of the greatest thing in Tatoeba, isn't it? ^^
            We won't be able to respond to all the requests, to be sure, but we'll do what we can.
            I wish there were a useful system to do this kind of thing easily.
            • That's a good idea. When we have a suitable place (perhaps on the new wiki) for tracking requests, we should add it there.
        • I like the idea of orphan sentences not showing up under searches. (Perhaps a settings option or a search query check box or something like that would be suitable.)
          • I, too, have come to somewhat like that idea. Another possibility would be to show an easy-to-spot warning sign next to an orphan sentence, especially when it is displayed as a (direct or indirect) translation.
  4. I have a New friend.

    http://tatoeba.org/spa/user/profile/susy

  5. Hallo liebe Tatoebistas,

    ich gebe aus Zeit- bzw. natürlich Prioritätsgründen meine Aktivität auf Tatoeba ganz auf. Das heißt vor allem, dass ich die vielen Korrekturen an meinen vor allem deutschen Sätzen, die immer noch nötig sind, nicht mehr durchführen werde. Das Prinzip, dass nicht jeder beliebig Sätze ändern darf, sondern nach einer Korrekturaufforderung andere Mitglieder Zeit haben, zu widersprechen, finde ich sehr gut. Ich gebe daher meine Sätze ganz bewusst nicht frei für andere Korrekturen als die den Tatoeba-Regeln entsprechenden. Diese Nachricht nur als Hinweis, dass ihr nicht mehr damit rechnen könnt, dass ich die nötigen Korrekturen selbst durchführe.

    Danke für eine wunderbare Zeit und Zusammenarbeit auf Tatoeba und viel Spaß weiterhin!
    • Bonne route ! Le plaisir fut très largement et intensément partagé.
      Tu es la contributrice dont j'ai le plus apprécié la collaboration.
      Viel Spaß und Glück !
    • Muiriel! Rien que pour toi il faudrait qu'on crée un statut "membre honorable" :P Merci d'avoir supporté le projet depuis le tout tout début. À bientôt j'espère :)
    • Embora não tenha tido muito contato com você, é fácil perceber o quanto você tem se dedicado ao projeto. Esperamos tê-la de volta o mais cedo possível.
  6. OOLIII
  7. Sentence books in the XIX century (telegraph Age)

    No se si habia otros libros o diccionarios de frases, pero en el siglo antepasado se utilizaba libros de frases hechas para ahorrar tiempo y dinero en los envios telegraficos.

    http://www.xatakaciencia.com/te...-internet-y-ii

    Es curioso que tanta gente se pudiese arreglar con las mismas frases ya hechas y algunas palabras más.

    En internet no hay problema de ancho de banda, sobre todo con el texto, pero tal vez puede ser un sistema util.

    Los traductores, no son fiables. Pero se pueden utilizar frases ya hechas como las de tatoeba para comunicarnos y seguir la traduciones de esas frases.

    Tambien pueden servir para comunicarnos con maquinas (buscadores, etc). Es dificil analizar una frase pero pueden reconocer una frase hecha.
    ¿Como funciona X ?
    ¿Donde encuentro X?
    ¿Cómo se llama la canción de X?
    ¿Quien quiere una invitacion de X?
    Mañana a HH se celebra X.

    Es un sistema latoso (complicado), pero por lo visto en el siglo antepasado era viable usarlo.

    Perdon si es muy offtopic :P
  8. I am able to post messages on the Wall, but not respond to existing ones. I'm going to write a private message to the admins about this.
  9. Comment se fait-il que désormais une partie de mon interface se retrouve en turc ? Quels réglages dois-je faire ?
    • J’ai le même problème… :-\
      J’ai de plus remarqué que l’Espéranto n’est plus présent dans les langues proposées dans le menu « langue pour la phrase suivante » et que « tatoeba.org/epo/home » redirige vers « tatoeba.org/fre/home » ☹
      Y a-t-il eu des changements récents sur le site ? ☹
      • Normalement l'esperanto est toujours présent... Est-ce que vous avez encore ce problème? Est-ce que vous savez si quelqu'un d'autre a ce problème?
        • Merci beaucoup pour le retour à la normal du turc vers le français ☺
          L’espéranto est revenu sur les listes déroulantes de langues (j’avais été très surpris de le voir disparaître… mais j’ai peut-être rêvé).
          Est-ce normal par contre que les adresses du type « tatoeba.org/xxx/home » redirigent toutes vers « tatoeba.org/fre/home » : le pays de connection joue un rôle là dedans ?
          Encore merci pour les modifications en tous cas.
          • Pour le problème de redirection, c'est normal si la langue que vous avez choisi dans le menu déroulant est le français. C'est pour éviter le changement de la langue de votre interface si vous cliquez sur un lien avec une autre langue pour l'interface.

            Par exemple si votre interface est en français et la mienne en japonais, et que je copie-colle une lien dans un commentaire, ce serait gênant pour vous si le fait de cliquer sur ce lien change votre interface en japonais.
            • Ah oui en effet, ça serait embêtant.
              Merci beaucoup ☺
    • C'est parce que j'ai mis à jour les traductions de l'interface et certaines traductions n'étaient pas légitimes (mais je ne l'avais pas remarqué).

      Pour info la traduction de l'interface de Tatoeba se passe comme expliqué ici: http://tatoeba.org/eng/faq#translate-interface
      Un des traducteurs sur Launchpad a remplacé certaines traductions françaises par du turc =/ Ce qui explique pourquoi une partie de l'interface était en turc lorsque j'ai mis à jour. Du coup je suis revenue en arrière en attendant que les traductions soient corrigées. Si vous remarquez d'autres problèmes de ce genre n'hésitez pas à nous envoyer un email.
      • Merci. :) Pour moi tout est revenu à la normale.
      • J'ai passé du temps à traduire les noms de nouvelles langues tel que le berbère en français, ainsi que d'autres éléments d'interface, mais ces éléments apparaissent toujours non traduits dans l'interface en français. Que se passe-t-il ?
        Je trouve que dans la procédure d'ajout d'une nouvelle langue, la traduction de sa dénomination devrait être prévue initialement. Il suffirait de prévenir les traducteurs à l'avance.
        Sinon, on a le résultat actuel, c'est à dire une liste de langues totalement incohérente et désorganisée...
        • Il faut qu'on corrige les dégâts faits par boracasli. Une fois que ce sera corrigé on pourra mettre à jour l'interface en français. On va aussi restreindre les droits de traduction sur Launchpad pour éviter les incidents de ce genre.

          Concernant l'ajout de langue, on est plus ou moins obligés de passer par une phase pendant laquelle la liste est désorganisée. Mais je ferai en sorte que la mise à jour des traductions de l'interface se fasse de manière plus fréquente pour que ce soit réglés en quelques jours au maximum, au lieu de quelques semaines.
          • Vous avez restreint les accès à la traduction de l'interface (en tout cas le mien). C'est bien, comme ça, ceux qui sabotent l'interface peuvent y accéder, mais ceux qui œuvrent à l'améliorer ne peuvent plus le faire. Merveilleux ! On marche sur la tête...

            Il est urgent de faire quelque chose. Cela fait 2 ans que la liste des langues n'est pas à jour en français (et j'imagine dans d'autres langues que l'anglais). Il n'y a pas de raison que l'interface en français soit pénalisée.
            • C'est moi qui ai fait cela, et je m'en explique

              dans l'interface de launchpad il n'y a que 3 options

              1 - ouvert = tout le monde peut contribuer dès lors qu'il a un compte (y compris donc bora, et comme nous ne sommes pas les administrateurs et que c'est une plateforme assez lourde, il est fastidieux de demander à bloquer un utilisateur et impossible depuis l'interface d'annuler des mauvaises contributions)

              donc malheureusement nous ne pouvons donc pas garder cette option

              2 - restreint, pour pouvoir traduire il faut avoir le statut de "traducteur" sur la plateforme launchpad, ce qui fait que pour l'instant ceux qui ont juste le statut "simple compte" ne peuvent plus contributuer, ce qui évite Bora, mais comme tu le fais remarquer, gêne les autres

              3 fermée , seul les propriétaires du projet peuvent traduire


              la solution 1 du fait de bora et que la plateforme n'est pas sous notre controle la rend impossible à garder

              la 2 est fastidieuse, là dessus entièrement d'accord avec toi

              et la 3 évidemment n'est pas envisageable.

              Malheureusement on ne peut pas sur Launchpad simplement dire "j'autorise telle ou telle personne" ( ce qui serais évidement le plus simple, on en convient)

              Je suis en train de voir s'il n'y aurait pas un moyen plus simple. Je suis vraiment désolé pour la gêne, mais comme tu le vois, nous sommes aussi pris un peu au dépourvu par le manque d'options de la plateforme.
              • > Malheureusement on ne peut pas sur Launchpad simplement dire "j'autorise telle ou telle personne"

                Isn't it possible to create a new "translation group" for Tatoeba?
                https://help.launchpad.net/Tran...nslation_group
                • Yes indeed, but this take time :) we're going to make a request to the administrators of launchpad in order to have our own translations group
              • enfin bon, ça reste tout de même absurde d'avoir une interface mal traduite sur un site de traduction où de nombreux bénévoles travaillent sans cesse à améliorer les traductions...
                Evidemment, ça n'affecte pas l'anglais...
                • c'est vrai, dans ma liste de chose à faire pour la nouvelle version, ce sera d'avoir un module pour gérer nous-même la traduction (comme ça il n'y aura plus besoin de compte tiers etc.), là en ce moment je finalise le wiki et en je commence à regarder pour remplacer le mur.
          • J'en profite pour signaler que « n'importe » en haut des listes de langues en français n'a pas de sens. Les gens qui ne connaissent pas l'interface ne comprennent pas qu'il s'agit d'une liste de langues (De n'importe...vers n'importe ?)...
            « toute langue » serait plus judicieux.
          • J'en profite également pour signaler que « rapporter des bogues » n'est pas français. Ce sont les chiens qui rapportent des balles. Les humains, eux, « signalent » des bogues.
            Ecrire en français ne consiste pas à essayer de franciser de l'anglais de manière désastreuse...
  10. Bonjour à tous.
    Hello everyone.
    • Bienvenido, espero que te lo pases bien aqui :)
    • Bienvenue !
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