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gillux
yesterday - edited yesterday
I’m adding additional criteria to the search feature. You can test this ongoing work on https://dev.tatoeba.org/

Perform a regular search, and then you’ll see additional criteria on the right: sentence owner and orphan sentences for the moment. I made orphan sentences hidden by default. This way, they are hidden from top bar searches, but can be displayed by checking the additional criterion, lowering their visibility to newcomers.

What do you think?
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Guybrush88
yesterday
I found an issue with accents. First query: https://dev.tatoeba.org/ita/sen...ita&to=und

It becomes this query when I search for my sentences corresponding to that query: https://dev.tatoeba.org/ita/sen...ser=Guybrush88

As you can see, no results are shown because the accent is changed by the query, while sentences I own are shown without specifying my username
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gillux
yesterday
Problem solved, thank you.
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Guybrush88
yesterday
thanks for the fix, gillux. everything seems to be perfectly working for me now
Ooneykcall
yesterday
By the way, is there a way to bring the native speaker factor into the search, e.g. arrange for 'sentences in language X by native speakers' and, conversely, 'non-native speakers / undefined'?
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gillux
yesterday
Yes. That’s a good idea, I’ll definitely add this criterion. Though I’m not sure about how to organize the form since we’d have 3 exclusive filters for users: unowned, owned by a given user, owned by a native. It’s already a bit confusing because one can check “Show orphan sentences” while specifying a username (in which case the checkbox is ignored). Adding a third exclusive filter will make things worse.
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CK
CK
yesterday - edited yesterday
1.

Would it be possible to add more than one username in a comma-delimited list, similar to how members can limit languages in their settings?

For example, here is a list of the Japanese native speakers who have contributed the most sentences.

bunbuku,mookeee,tommy_san,arnab,Banka_Meduzo,thyc244,arihato,OrangeTart,Fukuko,wakatyann630,qahwa,Ianagisacos,fouafouadougou,tomo

This would allow members to search for sentences by members that they feel can be trusted.


2.

Would it be possible to allow us to also limit searches to only sentences with audio?


3.

I'd suggest this change in wording.

FROM:
Oprhan sentences are likely to be incorrect.
TO:
Orphan sentences are less likely to be correct.
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pullnosemans
18 hours ago - edited 8 hours ago
I like ck's ideas #1 and #3, and I don't mind #2, either.

an automatic 'native speakers' filter would probably be cool, too, but I also very much agree with sacredceltic's caveat below; you just never know who claims to be native. having an individual list as in ck's suggestion #1 would be a good way to cope with this problem.

I don't think, however, that hiding orphans should be the default in the way that you have to check "show orphans" every single time you submit a search query. I think this would lead to a decrease in orphans being adopted and amended. let's rather have it so that you can check "show orphans" and it stays like that until you manually uncheck it again.

it's great seeing this site improving constantly!
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gillux
17 hours ago
I see your points about native speakers. However, I don’t think this problem should be solved by changing the search criterion, but rather by changing the way we identify native speakers in the first place. The search criterion could only be “limit to sentences by self-proclamed natives” because that’s the only information we have in our database so far.

I don’t really like the idea of providing a comma-separated list instead of filtering by self-proclamed natives. First, because it’s rather impractical to use as the list grows. Second, because it restricts the ability to filter by native speakers to a handful of long-time contributors who have their own idea on that matter. I’m worrying about newcomers (who obviously won’t express themselves in this thread) being unable to use the search as efficiently as you guys would. That would be unfair. The current lack of native speakers identification and proper review mechanism to sort out “bad” sentences should be solved first, rather than worked around by that kind of “feature”. I can already see members providing ready-to-use search links in their profiles that filters users from their list. That said, filtering by multiple users itself (regardless of the motivation) seems legit, and is easy to implement.

I agree about what you said about orphans visibility. I initially wanted to limit the visibility of orphans because they are a major problem in some languages like Japanese where more than the half of the corpus are orphans that are mostly wrong. But that’s another problem.
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CK
CK
6 hours ago - edited 33 minutes ago
>Re: I don’t really like the idea of providing a comma-separated list ...

If it's difficult to program this capability, I can understand.

However, being able to search for sentences by more than one username would be useful.

For example, ...

1. People could limit searches to sentences owned by Brazilian Portuguese speakers, or Mexican Spanish speakers if they knew which members spoke which dialect.

2. People could use all the native speakers listed on http://bit.ly/nativespeakers rather than just the few that are listed using the new system on tatoeba.org. We have a lot of sentences written by native speakers that are never likely to come back and change the setting in their profiles.

3. People could choose to exclude certain self-proclaimed native speakers that they didn't trust.

4. People could choose to also include a few non-native speakers that they feel they can trust.

5. Some researchers may want to study typical English errors made by native Russian speakers, so they could browse through search results limited to English sentences written by Russian speakers.


It would probably also be a good idea to have the “limit to sentences by self-proclaimed natives” that you are suggesting.


** Added 6 hours later **

1.

Here are the number of members claiming "native speaker level" in more than one language
(https://tatoeba.org/eng/stats/users_languages)

1 member claims 4 languages at native level.
7 members claim 3 languages at native level.
54 members claim 2 languages at native level.

This is based on the exported data of May 23, 2015.

I wonder if other members are as skeptical as I am about these claims.
This is one reason I'd like the option to search with results limited to usernames of my own choosing.

If you want to see the usernames, go to http://goo.gl/K8vGKl.
There are perhaps a few on this list that I might trust as being true native speakers of two languages.


2.

I updated http://bit.ly/nativespeakers so now you can easily copy a comma-delimited set of usernames for each language.
If searching by multiple usernames is enabled, you can easily go here and copy the usernames, and then edit out members you don't trust (if there are any).

If you've been on the page recently, you may need to force a reload of the page to get the newest external JavaScript file.

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tommy_san
3 hours ago
I like this idea, too, but I'd hate typing lots of usernames each time because I'm sure I'd use the same sets of usernames many times. It would be nice if we could make lists of usernames that we can use anytime for search. We could also provide some default lists of self-proclaimed native speakers of each language.

> 2. People could use all the native speakers listed on http://bit.ly/nativespeakers rather than just the few that are listed using the new system on tatoeba.org. We have a lot of sentences written by native speakers that are never likely to come back and change the setting in their profiles.

How about incorporating the information on this page into the official system? Would anyone object to it?
Silja
18 hours ago
+1 to all CK's suggestions.
gillux
17 hours ago
> Would it be possible to allow us to also limit searches to only sentences with audio?

Yes. It won’t be testable on dev.tatoeba.org until the next update though.
sacredceltic
yesterday
"Native speakers", by Tatoeba's definition, is anybody who self-proclaims to be such : Russians claiming to be French or Turkish claiming to be British, just for the challenge...teenagers have such an oversized ego and Tatoeba often ends up being their egos's grave.. and makes them so much more aggressive and bitter, as a result...
Guybrush88
20 hours ago - edited 20 hours ago
would it also be possible to search for given words/expressions that are not translated in a given language? for example: I want to search for "once in a blue moon" (or any other expression in any other language) and I want to see all the sentences containing that expression that are not translated in Italian (or any other language). I would also find it useful if i could see all the sentences with a given expression/word that are translated in a given language. for example: i search for "apple pie" and i want to see only the sentences containing "apple pie" that have translations in Italian
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Silja
17 hours ago
+1. I'd also like to have "Show translations in", "Not directly translated into" and "Not translated into" sorting opitions.
gillux
17 hours ago
> would it also be possible to search for given words/expressions that are not translated in a given language?

Yes. I’ll implement this.

> I would also find it useful if i could see all the sentences with a given expression/word that are translated in a given language. for example: i search for "apple pie" and i want to see only the sentences containing "apple pie" that have translations in Italian

You mean https://tatoeba.org/sentences/s...eng&to=ita ?
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Guybrush88
15 hours ago
Silja
17 hours ago
I find it pretty difficult to remember the syntax we need to use when we want to search for exact phrases, sentences beginning with a certain word etc. I basically need to go every time to the wiki article to verify what characters mean what in the search (http://en.wiki.tatoeba.org/arti...w/text-search#).

Many online-dictionaries I use have a drop-down list where you can choose what kind of search you want to make. For example, this Japanese dictionary http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/ has options "begins with", "exact match" and "ends with" and you can specify your search with those.

I would also like to see something like that in Tatoeba. So there would be next to the search field another drop-down list with options to choose, eg.
- vague matches (eg. "live in boston" or "live") <-- this would be the default. I'm assuming the quotation marks don't do anything if you are searching with only one word, eg. the search "live" returns the same results as plain live, right?
- exact matches (eg. "=live =in =boston" or "=live") (though this wouldn't work when searching phrases in languages without spaces, I guess)
- begins with (eg. "^live in boston" or "^live")
- ends with (eg. "live in boston$" or "live$")
+ maybe something else, like "begins and ends with" (eg. "^live in boston$" or "^live$".)
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Guybrush88
17 hours ago
+1, i would find it better to have the opportunity of making exact searches instead of using "=word" each time i want to see the exact occurrences of something
tommy_san
4 hours ago
These criteria seem to limit only the sentences of the "from" language, but we're sometimes rather interested in the "to" language. For example, when I want to know how to say something in French and type a Japanese phrase, I don't mind seeing orphan Japanese sentences but I don't want orphan French sentences. I wonder how we could work this out.
orion17
4 hours ago - edited 4 hours ago
I hope I can search sentence with wild card feature. It will be very useful for inflectional language such as Arabic or the agglutinative one like Turkish.
Because I always find problem every time I want to search Arabic sentence. For example I want to find word ذهب (to go / he went) and the results are exactly the same. There are no result like ذهبت (you went), نذهب (we go), يذهبون (they go), أذهب (I go) etc.
and don't you think it will be very useful if we can search sentence examples of a language with its part or grammar, for example I want to search all Turkish sentences containing suffix -iyor/-ıyor/-uyor/-üyor without concerning the verb itself...
CK
CK
7 hours ago - edited 7 hours ago
I'd like to see the "OK" tag remain if someone releases a sentence.

Now, if someone chooses to "unown" a sentence, the OK tag disappears, so we lose important information.

In the past, when a non-native English speaker chose to release all their English sentences, I could easily find all of their sentences that I had tagged OK and adopt those sentences.
gleki
2 days ago
Again the issue with written tone, emphasis and emoticons is raised.

Definitely, sign language may have problems with being compatible with the current state of Tatoeba.org but what about smileys, capitalizing words for emphasis, sarcasm, irony etc.?

The thread:
http://tatoeba.org/por/sentences/show/2096210

Which parts of languages are allowed to be added to the database and which are not?
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pullnosemans
18 hours ago
overall I think this topic is kinda meh and hard to decide on, but generally, I would say that emoticons as used in text messages etc. are a part of an established style of writing, so banning them on here would be somewhat discriminating to the people who want to use them.

problem with using things like *this* or -this- for emphasis is that there is no consistent code how to use them, so they might be interpreted differently from what you wanted to express. then again, I think people will have enough empathic intuition to figure it out in the majority of cases.
Amastan
2 days ago
Ad ken-henniɣ a imeddukal... tamajaṛit tla 100.000 n tefyar!!!
Gratulálok barátaim... Magyar 100.000 mondatokat van!!!
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bandeirante
2 days ago
Köszönjük!
pullnosemans
5 days ago - edited 5 days ago
**to all people that have some kind of business with mandarin and/or japanese**

(seeing as CK is an english and japanese bilingual, this was originally directed to him in a pm, but then I thought it couldn't hurt to just make it public to the community and include mandarin.)

I have a question about something that has been growing more and more odd to me here on tatoeba.

if an english sentence contains a constituent with the definite article "the" (or one of the german equivalents die/den/das/etc.), a lot of japanese and mandarin sentences are translated using the demonstrative "その" in japanese or "这/那" in mandarin. I used to think it's weird, but assumed that I simply did not know the two languages well enough to be able to judge.

japanese example: http://tatoeba.org/fra/sentences/show/208196
chinese example with "这": http://tatoeba.org/fra/sentences/show/793355

however, lately I've been noticing that my chinese tandem partner uses the demonstrative "diese/r/s" (the german equivalent of "that") where she should be using the definite article, so I've been wondering: maybe speakers of languages without articles are explained the usage of the english or german definite article by means of pointing to something, or explaining to them that unlike the indefinite article (english "a", german "ein/e"), the definite article refers to something specific. because of this, I've been wondering whether this could actually be the cause of all the translations of "the" by means of "その"/"这/那".


so, to finally get to the point: what do you think about translating something like

"The dog ate a carrot."

as "その犬はニンジンを食べた。"
instead of something like "犬はニンジンを食べた。"

or "那只狗吃了胡萝卜。"
instead of something like "狗吃了胡萝卜。"

Do you think these translations are okay and "その"/"这/那" can be used in japanese and chinese respectively in this way, or do you think it's actually an unfitting translation and that only german/english demonstratives ("diese/r/s", "this/that") should be translated using demonstratives in mandarin and japanese? if yes, do you think the mistranslations might be caused by a frequent misunderstanding of the nature of english/german articles by native speakers of languages without articles?

very curious to hear what you guys have to say.
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sharptoothed
5 days ago
I'm not sure about Chinese sentences but as for the Japanese, it seems that the most of "その-sentences" come from Tanaka Corpus (most of English and Japanese sentences with numbers lower than ~30000 come from that corpus, actually). Tanaka Corpus is full of literal translations and less-than-natural sentences we often can see in textbooks where they are being used in educational purposes to illustrate different aspects of foreign languages. My Japanese is not good enough to judge if all those "その-sentences" are unnatural so let's wait for some native Japanese opinion. :-)
tommy_san
5 days ago
1. We sometimes do use その when we talk about something that has been mentioned before. Here are some examples. I guess some of them can be translated using a definite article. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

http://www.aozora.gr.jp/cards/0...773_14560.html
私は再びそこで故郷の【匂い】を嗅ぎました。【その匂い】は私に取って依然として懐かしいものでありました。
或る時先生が例の通りさっさと海から上がって来て、いつもの場所に脱ぎ棄てた【浴衣】を着ようとすると、どうした訳か、【その浴衣】に砂がいっぱい着いていた。
兄妹三人のうちで、一番便利なのはやはり書生をしている【私】だけであった。【その私】が母のいい付け通り学校の課業を放り出して、休み前に帰って来たという事が、父には大きな満足であった。

2. Obviously その in Japanese is used far less often than a definite article in Western languages.

3. At school, we learn to "translate" English sentences into a weird and clumsy Japanese. I once "translated" the English translations of some of my sentences into "Japanese" for fun.

#3052927
"Is that Tom calling again?" "Yes. He calls every evening these days. I shouldn't have given him my number."
「また電話をしているのはトムですか」「はい。彼は最近毎晩電話をします。私は彼に私の番号を教えるべきでありませんでした」

#2441780
"Tom, your dinner's getting cold." "Just a minute. I'll be right there."
「トム、あなたの夕食は冷めつつあります」「ちょっと待ってください。私はすぐそちらに行くでしょう」

When you ask Japanese to translate something into Japanese, there's a high probability that their "translation" looks like this. At least that was the case for most of the students at Hyogo University and contributors on Tatoeba (including myself in my earlier days).

Some words are used markedly more often than the real Japanese, such as personal and demonstrative pronouns, and there are also many other differences.

4. Most Japanese sentences here are not wrong, but there are so many sentences that can only used in limited situations. Some of them are so stilted that you can use them only when you write, even if they look like an example of spoken language. Some of them sound too impolite or vulgar that you should use them when you're talking with close friends. So, if you're seriously interested in learning Japanese and not yet good enough at it to tell the nuance just by reading a sentences out of context, you'd better ignore Japanese sentences on Tatoeba.
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pullnosemans
5 days ago
thanks for the responses so far, you two.

tommy, I think your very first remark is actually quite interesting. definite articles in english and german are indeed used to refer to something that is already known in discourse. however, on tatoeba, we of course don't have discourse, so that might be a problem when translating them into languages without direct equivalents of the articles.
I'm right now guessing that you could say the translations with demonstratives for definite articles are acceptable if we interpret them all in this way (at least for me personally, because I use tatoeba mainly to boost vocabulary anyway).

still curious to hear more opinions.
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tommy_san
4 days ago
犬, この犬, その犬 and あの犬 can all be a valid translation for "the dog". Honestly speaking, I have no idea right now how to explain the difference, but one thing is sure, it makes almost no sense to discuss it using out-of-context sentences.

> I use tatoeba mainly to boost vocabulary anyway
Many Japanese sentences here sound somewhat like "Er nahm ein Foto von dem Hunde." You can learn many words from it: nehmen = take, Foto = picture, etc. but the problem is not many German speakers "nehmen" pictures or say "dem Hunde" nowadays. If you don't mind it, just go ahead. If you're more serious about learning Japanese, you may want to take a look at http://yourei.jp/. It lists tons of real Japanese sentences.
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CK
CK
4 days ago
If you need furigana to read those pages, try starting with this link.

http://trans.hiragana.jp/ruby/http://yourei.jp/
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tommy_san
4 days ago
Unfortunately, it doesn't work when you search a word, but you can type a URL directly.

http://trans.hiragana.jp/ruby/http://yourei.jp/例文
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pullnosemans
3 days ago - edited 3 days ago
hey, thank you two for your help and providing me with yourei.

I'm right now curious how accurate my sense of style in japanese has grown so far, and whether or not I can roughly rely on it in my selection of japanese phrases on this site, so just a very quick test for myself: am I right assuming that "熱をお計りになりましたか。", an orphan sentence from this site, would be an example of a less-than-natural sentence? it appears pretty weird to me. do you think that staying away from sentences with syntactic structures that appear overly cumbersome to me would be a good way to filter out unnatural sentences?

also, it would be important for me to know: can I dodge stylistically outdated sentences on here by avoiding orphans, or sticking to certain contributors?
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tommy_san
3 days ago
> 熱をお計りになりましたか。

I'd write 測る instead of 計る and I'd say (熱は or お熱は) instead of 熱を.
お測りになりましたか is perfectly fine (it's by no means outdated), though it might be more common to say 測られましたか.

> can I dodge stylistically outdated sentences on here by avoiding orphans, or sticking to certain contributors?

Sentences added by native speakers NOT as translations are usually good.
Sentences added by non-native speakers are often bad.
All the other sentences are sometimes good, sometimes bad.

Take a look at this thread if you haven't read it yet.
https://tatoeba.org/wall/show_message/15743
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pullnosemans
2 days ago
again, thank you, especially for linking me to this very informative thread.

it seems that I'm still far from knowing idiomatic japanese well enough to be able to rougly judge whether a sentence is natural or not. I guess I will simply be staying away from orphans wherever I can now.

maybe I'll talk to my japanese tandem partner about this again. if I can get him interested in the tatoeba project, I'm sure he could contribute to making the japanese corpus more reliable.

what is the status quo in this respect anyway? are there any concrete plans how to get rid of the huge amount of japanese orphans? if the japanese corpus is that unsafe right now, hiding the orphans like you suggested back then might not be a bad idea. maybe havingthe number of japanese sentence indicated to be 60k instead of 180k would also lead to a greater motivation among japanese contributors to increase the number of good sentences.
ricardo14
4 days ago
Hello, guys! how are you?

Well, I'd like to apologize for my absence. In fact, I have found out that I have a tiny problem in my heart - that's why my high blood was so pressured - and so, I had been in many hospitals, clinics because I was hospitalized on May 14, May 15 (in another hospital), and on May 17th.
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odexed
4 days ago - edited 4 days ago
Hi, Ricardo. I'm sorry to hear about that and I hope you get well soon.
Espero que vocês fiquem bem logo. Saudações!
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ricardo14
4 days ago
Thanks a lot, odexed! Well, I'm much better now but I can't work outside home. I'll have to wait a bit more and make some more exams.
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odexed
4 days ago - edited 4 days ago
Try to have positive thinking, you will have some time to recuperate and practice your 31 languages :) By the way, my cousin promised me to give her Portuguese textbooks when she comes, I hope to see some basics soon.
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ricardo14
4 days ago
haha and I'll help you also! :D
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ricardo14
3 days ago
Haha awesome! Obrigado, meu amigo!

!! Espero que vocês( = you plural // você = you singular) fiquem ("fique" for 'you' singular) bem logo. Saudações!

I'll add some questions soon on www.hinative.com once I'm studying Russian and it will help me to translate from this language to Portuguese here on Tatoeba. Would you mind to help me in there?
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odexed
3 days ago - edited 3 days ago
Of course I will :) Once you write something leave me a private message here.
ricardo14
3 days ago
Большое спасибо за все, мой приятель!
Wuzzy
4 days ago
Happy 4000025th sentence, Tatoeba!
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sacredceltic
4 days ago
Je ne me rappelle plus quand nous avions passé le million précédent.
Un jeune crétin prétendait, dans le temps, que la progression de Tatoeba était exponentielle, ce que j'avais contesté, étant meilleur en maths. J'avais raison.

On n'avance pas avec tous ces fainéants !
Inego
4 days ago - edited 4 days ago
#2000000
#3000000
#4000000

It took 436 days to get from 2M to 3M and 432 days to get to 4M.

While the ordinal numbers of two sentences don't say anything about the quantity of sentences between them (since some get deleted over time), there is certainly some progress — not exponential indeed, but things are slowly but steadily speeding up.

Anyway, congratulations everyone!
CK
CK
4 days ago
I’ve created a list that might help you translate English sentences more quickly into your own language.


https://tatoeba.org/sentences_l...283/und/page:1
Good English sentences that weren't yet translated into any language on May 23, 2015 - sorted by length


Since this is a pre-searched set of sentences, the pages should come in faster than using the existing browse "Sentences in English not translated into any language” pages. Additionally, these are all sentences that I’ve already proofread.

There are 6,798 sentences on this list. All but 349 of the sentences are written by me.


You can jump to the last page of the list, if you prefer translating the long ones first.

https://tatoeba.org/sentences_l...3/und/page:680

You can jump to other pages in the list if it looks like someone has already translated sentences into your language. Just change the last number in the URL.

Example: (Jump to page 340)
https://tatoeba.org/sentences_l...3/und/page:340


If 225 of these sentences were translated into your language each day, then these could all be translated in a mouth.

Just bookmark the last page you do each day and continue from where you left off.
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astru
4 days ago
Many of these English sentences are quite idiomatic. Be careful during translation.
Impersonator
5 days ago - edited 5 days ago
Please note the destructive unlinking of #3459609 's translation by the user @Lenin_1917. The sentences were clearly good matches (in fact, the French and the English were added by the same user).

I’d like to ask the administrations to do something to prevent this from happening. Also, please link the sentences back.
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Inego
5 days ago
Почитал вашу переписку в комментах. Независимо от того, на чьей я стороне, удивлён. Ну вы, ребята, блин, даёте! Как-то недостойно высокого звания участника проекта Татоэба, простите, ср*ться, как в новостях РБК или в роликах на YouTube. Каждый может выкатить предложение, провокационное или оскорбительное для участника проекта, находящегося с противоложной стороны политического спектра, но зачем?
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Impersonator
5 days ago - edited 5 days ago
[РУС] Если не отвечать в комментариях, то предложения удаляют. «Deleted as overwhelmingly requested», как в #2926572. А мне очень не нравится такая цензура. Поэтому и комментирую.

[АНГ] If we won’t answer in the comments, the sentences will get deleted. "Deleted as overwhelmingly requested", as in #2926572. And I strongly oppose such censorship. That’s why I’m commenting it.
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Inego
5 days ago
К Вам тоже вопрос. Зачем добавляете провокационные предложения, зная, что они приведут к политическому ср*чу в комментах? Да, на Татоэбе нет цензуры, но Вы же взрослый человек и должны отдавать себе отчет в своих действиях.
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Impersonator
5 days ago
[РУС] Я не добавляю провокационных предложений. То, что легкопровоцируемым товарищам мои предложения кажутся провокационными, не значит, что я собирался кого-то провоцировать.

Отчёт в своих действиях я отдаю. А Вы в своих? Вы по сути поддерживаете цензуру.

[АНГ] I don’t add provocative sentences. If some easy-to-provoke people find my sentences provocative, it doesn’t mean I was going to provoke someone.

I do take responsibility for my actions. And do you take for yours? You’re basically supporting the censorship now.
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Inego
5 days ago - edited 5 days ago
Вы лукавите. Вы знаете, что Ваши утверждения будут неприятны тем людям, которые придерживаются политических взглядов, отличных от Ваших. Точно так же, как Вам было бы неприятно читать аналогичные предложения от них (если бы они стали делать так же, как Вы).
И при чем здесь цензура? Я же не требую, чтобы удалялись политически окрашенные предложения, которые могут быть неприятны другим участникам проекта, а просто удивляюсь человеку, который сознательно их добавляет.
Хулиганство и хамское поведение пользователя Lenin_1917, который в отместку отлинковал корректный перевод предложения, я тоже не одобряю. Но я могу понять, что к этому привело :)
P. S. Тут было бы кстати вспомнить историю с Charlie Hebdo, но лично мне хотелось бы видеть Татоэбу местом обсуждения языковых тонкостей, а не политических дебатов.
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Impersonator
5 days ago
[РУС]
> Вы знаете, что Ваши утверждения
> будут неприятны тем людям, которые
> придерживаются политических взглядов,
> отличных от Ваших

Более того, я знаю, что кому-то вообще будет неприятно, что я добавляю предложения на белорусском и украинском. Есть же люди, которые верят, что это диалекты, носителям которых надо бы пользоваться русским, — я с такими сталкивался в интернете не раз.

И что? Не добавлять предложения вообще?

> Вам было бы неприятно читать аналогичные
> предложения от них

«Бы» тут не нужно, у нас есть предложения, выражающией разные политические взгляды. И меня они вполне устраивают, я всячески за их наличие в корпусе.

> а просто удивляюсь человеку, который
> сознательно их добавляет

Я добавляю предложения, которые мне кажутся интересными и полезными. И я не понимаю, почему я не должен добавлять интересных и полезных предложений из-за того, что кому-то они покажутся провокационными.

Готов поспорить, кому-то вообще существование такого проекта покажется провокационным. Ишь чего удумали, корпус силами нелингвистов составлять. Он же нерепрезентативен!

[АНГ]
> You know your statements
> will be unpleasant to the people
> who hold to a political beliefs that
> are different from yours.

There’s more than that. I know there are people who will find it unpleasant that I add Belarusian and Ukrainian sentences. Some people believe that Belarusian and Ukrainian are dialects, and their speakers should use Russian instead, — I’ve encountered many such people in the internet.

So what? Stop adding sentences?

> You would have found it unpleasant
> to read similar sentences too

You shouldn’t use suppositional mood here, we have sentences representing different political views. And I’m quite OK with them, I support having them in the corpus.

> I’m just wondering at a person who
> is deliberately adding them

I add sentences I find interesting and useful. And I don’t understand why I should abstain from adding interesting and useful sentences because someone might find them provocative.

I bet someone might find this whole project provocative. Creating a corpus by non-linguists, such a bad idea. It won’t be representative enough!
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Inego
5 days ago
http://en.wiki.tatoeba.org/arti...how/guidelines
http://en.wiki.tatoeba.org/arti...t-bad-behavior

A couple of quotes for you:

"Do not submit sentences that will antagonize contributors or readers.
Sentences in this category include but are not limited to those that:
...
insult languages or countries"

"We do not tolerate
...
Provocation: writing something that intentionally makes other people angry.
...
Generally speaking, we do not tolerate any kind of behavior that harms the collaborative and civilized atmosphere of Tatoeba."
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pullnosemans
5 days ago
I am not directly affected, but here's my two cents:

I think that we should keep tatoeba as open as possible, so I do not think that adding sentences that have offensive potential should be completely banned.

however, I also think that when adding such sentences, we should be prepared to receive some negative feedback and/or being asked to remove or change it.
I feel if there are people on this site who feel hurt or offended by the sentence, it would be very mature to just respect their feelings and at least change the sentence to something less in-your-face, for god's sake (btw, Lenin_1917's behaviour was by all means pell-mell and unacceptable, so let's just leave him out of the calculation here). I don't know whether going on about the *principles* of this site will lead to any real results here. instead, why don't we focus on the fact that we are all working together here, and that it is in everyone's interest to have a pleasant climate.

try to think about what really counts here: enforcing your view on this specific topic, or just taking a deep breath and then trying to work together?

come on, guys.
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Lenin_1917
5 days ago - edited 5 days ago
The content of this message goes against our rules and was therefore hidden. It is displayed only to admins and to the author of the message.
Impersonator
4 days ago - edited 4 days ago
The problem with such an approach is that it’s highly unjust.


Less privileged people are used to seeing problematic things, so they don’t become 'insulted' so easy. And more privileged people are not used to being disagreed with, so they get 'insulted' at things that make them feel even a slight discomfort. But it doesn’t means only privileged people’s problems should be taken into account.

There’re quite a lot of sentences I’m not happy with. I don’t have the energy to start a dispute about #2832705, #530103 or #3743671 (outdated non-neutral vocabulary linked to neutral sentences), #530241, #530248 (even more outdated vocabulary which is even less neutral linked to neutral sentences), or #871099 (outright cruel), #3559181 (assuming gay rights are less important than someone's "right" not to see protests about gay rights), #4213741 (newest addition), lots of these... But I just don't have time to fix everything. It’s easier just to leave them as is — my sanity is more important. And I’m quite sure I’m not the one who thinks like this.

On the other hand, privileged people are not used to their values being questioned, and will feel 'insulted' by lots of things. And they have the resources (including free time) to silence their opponents and create censorship.
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sacredceltic
4 days ago
I like this sentence https://tatoeba.org/fra/sentences/show/4213741 because it says who Lenin_1917 actually is and I think this is important for contributors to know. I think this kind of individuals are actually dangerous and it's good that they are identified.

Again, I request that this user have his advanced contributor's status stripped, since he uses it to unlink correct translations that displease him, which is damaging to the precious Corpus.
odexed
4 days ago
> I don’t have the energy to start a dispute about #2832705, #530103 or #3743671 (outdated non-neutral vocabulary linked to neutral sentences)

What's wrong with the word "гомосексуалист" and what makes you think this word is non-neutral? If you search you'll find this word in many dictionaries and articles including Wikipedia and academic literature.
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Impersonator
4 days ago - edited 4 days ago
I've clearly stated I'm not interested in starting a dispute about this, and you're provoking me to. Thank you for being nice.

If you read the Wikipedia you’ve referenced, you'd find:

> Ряд ученых (Л. С. Клейн, И. С. Кон, Г. Б. Дерягин)
> считают, что термин «гомосексуалист/гомосексуализм»
> несёт негативную оценочную коннотацию,
> а «гомосексуал» — нет

> A number of scholars (L. S. Kleyn, I. S. Kon, G. B. Deryagin)
> believe that the term «gomoseksualizm/gomoseksualist»
> has a negative connotation, while «gomoseksual» does not.


> many dictionaries and articles
> and academic literature.

Like I've said, this is an outdated term, not a never-used term. It is a term coined in the time back when homosexuality was considered an disorder to be treated, and it carries the connotations of that time.
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odexed
4 days ago - edited 4 days ago
Well, I do not provoke you to dispute, I just asked you since I haven't heard in all my life about any negative connotation of this word. Like you said, it's just an opinion and I don't share it. Besides, there are too many really less neutral terms for this word in Russian as to be so picky about it.
I still respect your opinion on this matter but don't be so categorical, not all of those sentences are really offensive or negative. As to me, some of them are totally neutral.
Ooneykcall
5 days ago
>зачем?
Because we can, очевидно же. Свобода в полном проявлении — не её ли поднимают на знамена современные демократы? Конечно, не раззадоривать других было бы почеловечнее, но лингвистическая беспристрастность позволяет, как видим, этим не заморачиваться. (Я сам ничего на эту тему не добавляю, потому что не особо интересно в этом политболоте; а кому интересно, да Господь с ними, пусть потешатся, лишь бы не заставляли нас плакать, т.е. без личных провокаций.)
>сраться
По-моему, Имп нарочно хотел показать дурь товарища Л. — ещё одна монета в копилку желающих снять с него статус.
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