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sharptoothed
yesterday
** Sentences & Translations Stats **

These stats have been updated:

http://tatoeba.j-langtools.com/transtop/

Graphs have been updated, too.

http://tatoeba.j-langtools.com/graphs.html
TRANG
3 days ago
** Tatoeba Day #22 **

Tatoeba Day starts now and as usual will end in 24 hours!

Tatoeba Day is an event where you can get involved a little bit (or a lot) more than you usually would, to help make Tatoeba more awesome. You can find more details about it here:
http://en.wiki.tatoeba.org/arti...ow/tatoeba-day

In addition to the regular Tatoeba Day activities, I'd like to bring up again the topic of having a Tatoeba coding event. If that's an idea you're interested in (even if you won't be coding yourself), please refer to this thread and share your thoughts over there:
https://tatoeba.org/eng/wall/sh...#message_25645

Happy Tatoeba Day!
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TRANG
2 days ago
The dev website has been updated with a beginning of implementation for this issue:

Title: offer ability to mark a list inactive
URL: https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/654

If you have a moment, please go test it on https://dev.tatoeba.org and give us your feedback.

Thanks!
TRANG
2 days ago
** Mobile friendly UI **

I've updated the dev website to include a beginning of implementation to make Tatoeba user interface mobile-friendly. The new UI has to be enabled via the Settings: "Activate new user interface".

Don't expect too much at this stage though, this option will not make Tatoeba suddenly look good on mobile devices. Re-designing Tatoeba's UI is going to be a very big project that will maybe take a whole year, maybe more. But this is a start :)

The parts of the UI that are currently affected when you activate the new UI is:
1) the font
2) the page to add new sentences ("Contribute" > "Add sentences")

If you're interested, then please go try it out on the dev website (https://dev.tatoeba.org/eng/), and try it with all sorts of browsers and devices! Let me know if it doesn't work on a particular browser or device. Again, it will NOT look good on mobile devices, but right now this is not about making it pretty, it's about making sure that it works.

Thanks!
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bill
2 days ago
Well, it's better than nothing. What framework are you using?
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TRANG
2 days ago
TRANG
2 days ago
Tatoeba Day is now over :)

Next Tatoeba Day is scheduled for June 5th.
kemushi69
2 days ago
A question about punctuation ... not relevant to "Tatoeba day"

I actually have a few questions:

1. The "em dash"

In typesetting (and in html) there are two types of dash: the "n dash", which usually appears between numbers (eg, 1-9), and the "em dash" that's longer and usually appears between words, generally to indicate a pause (colon or semicolon) or parenthetical sentence. I mean, for example, "late againーwhat a surprise!".

When I use HTML/XML for this kind of thing, I just use the "mdash" HTML glyph, but here I've ended up just switching over to Japanese input mode and entering a hyphen, which get rendered as in my example above.

So my question is whether this is a good/correct way to get that symbol into a sentence?

2. Localisation of quotation marks

In English and Irish (which are my main languages), it's simply a case of using the double-apostrophe key, whereas other languages (eg, Spanish, German) use different characters to delimit quotations.

My question is whether English-style quotes are acceptable in general, or whether the localised text should always follow local rules (eg, 「」 for Japanese) ?

This is more a question about any automatic tools that process the data rather than what I should be typing in (ie, I guess I should always use the correct language-specific punctuation).

3. double-width space characters

If I make a mistake and include a double-width space character (due to being in Japanese input mode) instead of the usual space, will it mess up the value stored in the corpus? Or are these automatically converted to regular spaces (and coalesced, should I hit space twice)?

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TRANG
2 days ago
1. I'd say this is not the correct way. Even though they look similar, they are not detected as the same symbol, and might look different with other fonts.

- http://unicode-table.com/en/30FC/ (the Japanese dash that you've entered in "late againーwhat a surprise!")
- http://unicode-table.com/en/2014/ (the em dash)


2. In theory each language uses its own standard quotes. In practice there could be English quotes in non-English sentences because we don't pre-process and standardize punctation.


3. As said above, we currently don't standardize punctuation so if you enter a double-width space it will be saved as double-width space.
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kemushi69
2 days ago
Thanks, I'll have to be careful with points 1 and 3 then.
kemushi69
3 days ago
I have a few suggestions for how the "random sentence" feature might be improved. I initially posted this on github, but was advised to repost here instead.

## 1 Include an option somewhere to limit the number of languages shown. ##

There can be a lot of scrolling involved to skip past the translations and languages that you're not interested in. If we had a way of suppressing those languages in the results, that would eliminate much of it.

This could be done with an option like "only display profile languages in results". That might also encourage users to fill in their profile languages.

Other, more fine-grained systems could work, too, though. For example, you could let users divide languages into three "piles"---core languages (ie, profile languages), languages that you have an interest in, and languages that you're not interested in. The first group would always appear, the second would only appear if the user wants them to (via a global option or local options relevant to where they are), while the last group would never be displayed (user would have to move them from the "uninteresting" category into the "core/profile" or "interesting" category), except, perhaps as a summary ("+results in 25 other languages")

## 2 Make translations invisible by default ##

This would be especially useful for the random sentence feature since it would let users test their reading comprehension without being tempted to take a peek at the translation.

This would be an option that could be turned on or off. It could be called "hide translations initially" (or something along the lines of "make translations invisible ..." as above) or it could be given a name like "reading practice mode" or "flashcard mode" or something like that.

The way it would would, I think, would be to have a horizontal "flag bar" immediately below the sentence. It would show a flag for each available translation. Then pressing on one of the flags would toggle visibility of that particular translation. There might also need to be an icon (or text button) to toggle visibility of all translations. Newly-visible translations would appear beneath the flag bar in the same way that they do now.

A simpler alternative to the flag bar would be to keep translations where they are and just have a single toggle button beside them to control visibility. That still wastes a lot of space, though, and wouldn't look very good.

## 3 Make random selection feature work within "collections" or "favourites" ##

I'm not sure what the difference between these two is, but it's not that important. The idea I have here is, again, to make the interface more useful for someone wanting to use collections of sentences as a study/revision aid. In other words, for "collections" to work more like independent stacks of flashcards, to continue the analogy from the last point.

The whole area of collections/favourites (or simply lists/sets of sentences) doesn't seem to be too well developed on the site. I don't see any way of easily sharing collections/favourites beyond trawling user profiles. A simple feature to show a random selection from a particular collection should be a very easy thing to implement and it would, in my opinion, improve the utility of the site no end.

### Closing Remarks

I haven't looked at the code, but it seems that points 1 and 2 could be done on the client side, so it should be pretty easy. Point 3 probably needs a lot of server-side work, though.
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CK
CK
3 days ago - edited 3 days ago
By "random sentence feature", do you mean this URL?

https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/random
(The first item on the "browse" menu.)
CK
CK
3 days ago - edited 3 days ago
##1

Note that it's already possible to get sets of random sentences limited to one language at a time using the advanced search function.

There are several useful preset searches for those on these pages.

Translating Irish to English - Studying English-Irish pairs
http://study.aitech.ac.jp/tatoe...=gle&t=eng

Here is the same page set up for French to English
http://study.aitech.ac.jp/tatoe...=fra&t=eng

Here is the same page set up for Japanese to English
http://study.aitech.ac.jp/tatoe...=jpn&t=eng

You can easily set up similar pages for other languages by accessing this page.
http://study.aitech.ac.jp/tatoe...late/links.php
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kemushi69
3 days ago
re:##1

That's useful to know, CK. Thanks. I didn't see any obvious way of doing that.

I still think it might be useful to allow display of all one's profile languages. Can the search engine do that, I wonder?
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bill
3 days ago - edited 3 days ago
You can do that on the settings page:

http://imgur.com/ln5FT0X
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kemushi69
3 days ago
Excellent. Thank you, bill. I'd already looked at the search options and never noticed that that section could do what I wanted.
CK
CK
3 days ago
##2

https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/1157

##3

https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/767

If this issue were addressed, then the random results in the advanced search could be limited to lists which are collections of sentences.
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kemushi69
3 days ago
Re: ##2

I've responded to the newly-created issue in github. Further conversation moves to:

https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/1157

Re: ##3

If I'm reading this correctly, the code to do a search would be able to do a join on a table containing a list of sentences (in SQL speak). I'm not sure if collections or favourites are handled any differently from lists, but in theory if one can be implemented, then so can the others. I worry if these database joins might not be too slow or heavy on resources, though?

One other question on this: is the "random" interface separate from the "search" interface, or are they the same thing with "sort=random" giving more specialised output?
TRANG
2 days ago
Regarding #2, I don't think it would be a good approach to tweak the UI on a gloabal level to add a "hide translations" feature. Practice-mode features should be a completely separate section of the site, or could be also a completely separate app.

What you're asking for is somewhat achievable with lists and Anki. If you browse lists, you can see that some lists are downloadable, like this one: https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences_lists/show/9.
You could therefore create your own lists, or download someone else's list, and use Anki or other similar apps to exercise with these sentences.


Regarding #3, the theoretical difference between collections and favorites is that favorites are sentences that you personally like, because they're interesting or funny to you. Collections are sentences that you've reviewed.

I wouldn't consider it a priority to extend the random feature to favorites and collections. We could make favorites and collections downloadable though, just like we've made some lists downloadable, so that users can import them into flashcard apps like Anki.


Generally speaking, I don't think Tatoeba should focus on providing better features for language learners to practice. Maybe someday, but right now I believe we should focus on improving the quality of our data, provide better features to organize/categorize it, and make it easier to extract subsets of our data to be used in external apps. We should rely on other apps to provide features for language learners to practice a language based on our data.
CK
CK
5 days ago - edited 5 days ago
** We now have over 220,000 English Audio Files **

◼ Listen to the audio on the most-recently contributed sentences using this link.

https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentenc...nly-with-audio

◼ Listen to the most-recently added audio using these links.

▪ Audio added by rhys_mcg (Australian)
https://tatoeba.org/sentences_lists/show/6036/und

▪ Audio added by CK (American)
https://tatoeba.org/sentences_lists/show/4000/und
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bill
5 days ago
It's nice to have new voices on Tatoeba. Thanks for your contribution, Rhys.
CK
CK
2 days ago - edited 2 days ago
We now have over 222,222 English audio files.

https://tatoeba.org/sentences/s...nly-with-audio
MystyrNile
4 days ago
"Search error

An error occured while performing the search. If the problem persists, please let us know."

This is all I'm getting when I search right now. Wanted to ensure you guys knew there was a problem.
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Guybrush88
4 days ago
Even the random sentences feature is not working
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TRANG
4 days ago
The random sentence feature is relying on the search engine, which is why if the search is down, the random sentences will not be working either.
TRANG
4 days ago
It should be fixed now.
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MystyrNile
4 days ago
Ça marche à nouveau, merci !
don_ramon
2 days ago
It is broken again.
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TRANG
2 days ago
It should work again now.
salim346
2 days ago
Dear Admin,

The random sentence search does not work.
this is just to inform you.
hope to get it fixed asap.

many thanks

salim
kemushi69
2 days ago - edited 2 days ago
# random thoughts on "use cases" for tatoeba.org #

I'm thinking about various combinations of:

* What is tatoeba.org?
* Who might be interested in it?
* How would they use it?

(The "when" and "where" aren't so important, and the "why" is usually inscrutable)

"What is it?" is easy enough on a crude level: it's a set of parallel translations of short natural language sentences/passages.

The "who" is harder to answer. Some ideas include:

* linguists and language researchers
* fans/evangelists of a particular language
* language learners
* developers (programmers) with an interest in language
* language teachers
* Integrators (who see it as part of a bigger picture)
* investors/philanthropists (who see it as a means to an end)
* people just wanting to interact with some sort of community, make friends, etc.
* hobbyists/wild-cards
* etc.

What each of these wants from the site is going to be different from person to person. Whatever their goals, they'll have different ways of using it. Or at least they'll look to see what's possible and how they can make it happen. If they can't make it happen, they'll go elsewhere.

To turn all this into a set of use cases needs to take account of who the users are, what they're trying to achieve (and whether it's a good fit for whatever tatoeba.org actually is, as opposed to what they think/hope it is) and how their needs/goals can be achieved.

We kind of know what the site is, but we seem to be missing is some sort of profile of 'who' uses the site and 'how' they use it as a tool to progress their own aims. In other words, what are the actual "use cases" for the site? Any suggestions?
TRANG
3 days ago
** Tatoeba update **

Tatoeba has been updated and for those who are bothered with the random sentence on the homepage, there's a now an option to hide it. Go to your profile > "Settings", and select "Hide random sentence on the homepage".

For more details about the bug fixes and enhancements that were introduced in the past few weeks, you can check the following links:

* https://github.com/Tatoeba/tato...sed+is%3Aissue
* https://github.com/Tatoeba/tato...-14+is%3Aissue
* https://github.com/Tatoeba/tato...-30+is%3Aissue
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al_ex_an_der
3 days ago
MystyrNile
3 days ago
Cool stuff!
Pfirsichbaeumchen
10 days ago - edited 10 days ago
gege_veggie has requested advanced contributor status/möchte fortgeschrittener Mitarbeiter werden/deziras iĝi progresinta kontribuanto.

Profile/Profil/profilo: https://tatoeba.org/user/profile/gege_veggie.

[ENG] Please feel free to share your opinion and send us a private message. Advanced contributors can link and tag sentences.

[DEU] Schickt uns, wenn Ihr möchtet, eine Privatnachricht und laßt uns wissen, was Ihr denkt. Fortgeschrittene Mitarbeiter können Sätze verknüpfen und etikettieren.

[EPO] Ne hezitu sendi al ni privatan mesaĝon per la suba ligilo kaj sciigi nin pri via opinio. Progresinta kontribuanto povas ligi kaj etikedigi frazojn.

[1] http://tatoeba.org/private_mess...sichbaeumchen.
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Pfirsichbaeumchen
4 days ago
gege_veggie nun estas progresinta kontribuanto/ist jetzt fortgeschrittener Mitarbeiter/is now an advanced contributor.
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