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Sentence #29199

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tommy_san tommy_san September 16, 2013 September 16, 2013 at 6:07:11 AM UTC flag Report link Permalink

@Dejo

I noticed you've adopted this sentence.
Do you use this pattern yourself, or do you think it's archaic?
What do you think of other sentences using "such books as"?
http://tatoeba.org/jpn/sentence...rom=und&to=und


"Such books as" is a typical example of the "(quasi-)relative pronoun 'as'" in English study books in Japan.
Read only such books as will help you. (『基礎からの新々総合英語』)
Read such books as can be easily understood. (『基礎英文法問題精講』)
Please advise him to read only such books as will benefit him. (『Next Stage 英文法・語法問題』)

After Nero deleted the sentence [#40499], CK commented that while he thinks it might not be wrong, he's not sure if he's heard any native English speaker ever uses it.

Dejo Dejo September 17, 2013 September 17, 2013 at 3:37:49 AM UTC flag Report link Permalink

I use this pattern myself. This pattern is perfectly good English, but if native speakers hear it they may suspect that you've enjoyed an above average education. In other words it marks a careful speaker of English. I have a problem with the term "archaic". I suspect that in Tatoeba it may mean to a 20 years old, anything that was written before he was born. It is impossible to study history, psychology, political science and what not without coming across this structure. But here are a few more recent exapmples:
1. Part of the legislation appropriated $5,000 "for the purchase of such books as may be necessary for the use of Congress ... Wikipedia quoting a Library of Congress source.
2. The secretary shall keep the minutes of all proceedings of the board of trustees and of the members and make a proper record of the same which shall be attested by him. He shall keep *such books as* may be required by the board of trustees and generally perform such duties as may be required by the board of trustees. (Hilltop Historical Society By-laws)
3.(a) if there are not kept such books as are necessary to give a true and fair view of the state of the affairs of the company or branch office, as the case may be ... Companies Act 1956
(An interesting Google Search for " such ideas as may"
https://www.google.ca/?gws_rd=c...as+as+may%22+)

tommy_san tommy_san September 18, 2013 September 18, 2013 at 2:21:50 AM UTC flag Report link Permalink

Thank you. Now I think I understand the matter better.

It seems that the English curriculum in Japan, which is often criticized as not being practical, is not necessarily a bad thing, since it enables us to access the English written in an elevated style (This term might be more appropriate than "archaic").

The problem is that we don't often learn the difference between styles. The example sentences we see don't usually "tell" much about where they come from. The sentences using "such ... as" I quoted above look as if they were used in everyday conversation. If a Japanese ended up saying "I want to date such a girl as likes to travel," it would sound unnatural or at least affected, right?

I think it's important that the content of example sentences matches their style. The three examples you quoted look very good to me because it's clear that they're not taken from a casual talk. I personally think it's a pity that there aren't many sentences of this kind in Tatoeba. (For example, there is no owned sentence using the expression "the present writer".) We don't study languages only for daily conversation. If there are more advanced sentences in Tatoeba, I'm sure we could attract more competent contributors.

Dejo Dejo September 18, 2013 September 18, 2013 at 4:03:33 AM UTC flag Report link Permalink

After reading your comment I noticed that we already have a label "elevated style", but it has only about 25 sentences, most of them in German.

In answer to your question: "If a Japanese ended up saying "I want to date such a girl as likes to travel," it would sound unnatural or at least affected, right?"
We know that a Japanese who speaks English has to have studied grammar. Native speakers of English learn very little grammar at school. Therefore we often expect the foreigner to speak better English than we speak ourselves. I don't worry about a foreigner sounding affected. What really irks me is when an educated foreigner uses some type of street language in order to sound like he fits in. Linguists would call this a mixing of registers. In America we are reluctant to acknowledge that speech patterns are tied to social class. Watch for a few new sentences on this theme:) like http://www.tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/2745832

al_ex_an_der al_ex_an_der September 18, 2013 September 18, 2013 at 8:36:41 AM UTC flag Report link Permalink

理由のひとつには、読み書きに焦点をおいた教育にあります。
One of the reasons is the instruction focusing on the skill of reading and writing.
Einer der Gründe ist ein Unterricht bei dem Lesen und Schreiben im Mittelpunkt stehen.
Unu el la kialoj estas instruado, en kies fokuso estas lego kaj skribo.

Would you mind adopting the Japanese sentence I've added?
http://tatoeba.org/epo/sentences/show/2746169

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Begin with such books as you can easily understand.

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