Pinnwand (7.398 Diskussionen)
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Feniks
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Feniks
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TATAR1
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Tartar
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TATAR1
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gillux
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rul
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Feniks
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gillux
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I select English to translate sentences, but I'm offered other languages. Everything was fine until today. But what's wrong today?
Hi Feniks, that problem was caused by a recent update, actually caused by the same bug as what rul mentioned in the other thread.
It should be solved now, thanks!
Thank you very much!
The ‘Telegram in Tatar’ team has updated the messenger’s Tatar interface. The app can now be used in both Cyrillic and the Latin alphabet.
Das Team von „Telegram in Tatar“ hat die tatarische Benutzeroberfläche des Messengers aktualisiert. Die App kann nun sowohl in kyrillischer als auch in lateinischer Schrift verwendet werden.
«Telegram in Tatar» төркеме мессенджерның татар интерфейсын яңартты. Хәзер кушымтаны кирилл һәм латин алфавиты белән кулланырга мөмкин.
«Telegram in Tatar» törkeme messendjernıñ tatar interfeysın yañarttı. Xäzer quşımtanı kirill häm latin alfavitı belän qullanırğa mömkin.
Bu inde ağımdağı yılnıñ aprel’ axırında uq ğamälgä kerde.
(Бу инде агымдагы елның апрель ахырында ук гамәлгә керде.)
Мин бу мөһим эшне тулысынча хуплыйм. Дөньяда латин алфавитын кулланучы күп татарлар бар. Рәсәйдә дә алар бик күп. Бердәнбер проблема шунда ки, кайбер кешеләр латин алфавитында язылган татар җөмләләрне башка телләргә тәрҗемә итүдә кыенлыклар кичерәләр. Алман DeepL бу яктан бик яхшы! Ул латин хәрефләре белән язылган татар җөмләләрне башка телләргә әйбәт тәрҗемә итә.
Min bu möhim eşne tulısınça xuplıym. Dönyada latin alfavitın qullanuçı küp tatarlar bar. Räsäydä dä alar bik küp. Berdänber problema şunda ki, qayber keşelär latin alfavitında yazılğan tatar cömlälärne başqa tellärgä tärcemä itüdä qıyınlıqlar kiçerälär. Alman DeepL bu yaqtan bik yaxşı! Ul latin xärefläre belän yazılğan tatar cömlälärne başqa tellärgä äybät tärcemä itä.
I fully support this important work. There are many Tatars in the world who use the Latin alphabet. There are also a lot of them in Russia. The only problem is that some people have difficulty translating Tatar sentences written in the Latin alphabet into other languages. The German DeepL is very good at this! It translates Tatar sentences written in Latin letters into other languages.
Афәрин! Бу эшне күптән эшләргә кирәк иде. Мең рәхмәт! 👍👏
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht verstößt gegen unsere Regeln und wurde daher ausgeblendet. Er ist nur dem Verfasser und Administratoren einsehbar.
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht verstößt gegen unsere Regeln und wurde daher ausgeblendet. Er ist nur dem Verfasser und Administratoren einsehbar.
As a result of the latest update of tatoeba.org, you may run into CSRF errors, or "endless loading" behaviors when performing some actions such as logging in, submitting or editing a sentence or a translation. This is a temporary problem that should be solved by reloading the page and trying again. Sorry if it caused any data loss.
I'm finding it impossible to sort searches by Random now, with it selecting Relevance instead.
Thanks for letting me know! I just fixed that issue.
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht verstößt gegen unsere Regeln und wurde daher ausgeblendet. Er ist nur dem Verfasser und Administratoren einsehbar.
Should users be allowed to add original sentences in ancient or dead languages? Some contributors have been writing original Classical Chinese sentences, but I don't think we have reliable means to verify their correctness. Here to name a few:
https://tatoeba.org/zh-tw/sentences/show/1326209
https://tatoeba.org/zh-tw/sentences/show/1733573
https://tatoeba.org/zh-tw/sentences/show/1635843
https://tatoeba.org/zh-tw/sentences/show/1844943
https://tatoeba.org/zh-tw/sentences/show/2949725
Since Classical Chinese is a dead language, my personal view is that we should only accept sentences sourced from historical texts.
Members of Tatoeba have been contributing original sentences in dead languages for a long time, including Latin, ancient Greek, old French, middle French, ancient Hebrew, old Spanish, old Turkish, just to name a few. Changing the policy now would not be very practical, and some sentences may have been sourced from historical texts without attribution.
Of course there are no "native speakers" of these languages who may claim they are correct and natural, but I think we can approach a similar quality level based on non-native checks. I have a feeling that people who go all the way learning dead languages must be so passionate about it that they can be trusted.
I wonder if we currently have any corpus maintainers that are maintaining dead languages tho.
You can see here that unfortunately no dead languages have corpus maintainers: https://tatoeba.org/de/stats/native_speakers . But this problem isn't limited to dead lamguages, many widely spoken living languages are also unmaintained.
It seems that list is not updated. There're more than 1 corpus maintainers and more than 2 advanced contribution for Mandarin Chinese
Testers wanted
I am doing a large maintenance work on the code base of Tatoeba. Can you help me test if everything is working correctly? Please try to use the test website TatoDev https://dev.tatoeba.org/ to do the kind of things you do on the real website tatoeba.org. The goal is that it should appear as nothing changed (even though major changes happened under the hood). If you see any problem, or anything working differently than on https://tatoeba.org/, please let me know.
Technical details: https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/pull/3284
Everything seems OK except one thing. I cannot change flags.
Changing flags works fine for me. Can you elaborate what prevents you from changing flags?
Have a look at this small video: https://www.monato.be/Kunhavigo/ScreenFlow.mp4
Thanks for taking the time to record the video. It does not work because you are using the "new design" on TatoDev. There are two things you can do.
• Click on the "pencil" icon around the upper-right corner of the sentence. This will open a form where you can change the flag.
• Go to "Instellingen" and under "Experimentele opties" switch on "Toon zinnen met het oude ontwerp." Then open the sentence page again.
Oops. I'm so sorry! Yes, now everything works fine also on the dev website. Thanks!
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht verstößt gegen unsere Regeln und wurde daher ausgeblendet. Er ist nur dem Verfasser und Administratoren einsehbar.
https://tatoeba.org/zh-tw/sente...rd_count_min=1
The current written system used in the Minnan corpus is mixed. Pure Pe̍h-ōe-jī (Latin) sentences and pure Chinese-character sentences each make up about half of the corpus. I’ve been wondering whether it would make sense to split Minnan into two separate entries: one using only Pe̍h-ōe-jī, and the other using only Chinese characters. Another possibility would be to set either Pe̍h-ōe-jī or Chinese characters as an alternative script.
However, the problem is that there are currently no tools capable of converting Chinese-character Minnan into Pe̍h-ōe-jī, or vice versa. In addition, Minnan pronunciation is complicated, and most characters have multiple readings, which makes automatic conversion very difficult.
Another issue is that, in actual usage among the public, mixed writing combining Chinese characters and Pe̍h-ōe-jī is very common. I’m not sure how this situation should be handled, or which writing system for Minnan Tatoeba should ultimately include in its corpus.
Kieltä tuntematta: tuleeko vastaan jotain ongelmia, jos molempia merkkilajeja voi käyttää yksinään tai sekaisin, jos kieli kerran näin tekee?
The main drawback of mixing both writing systems is that it is difficult to search for words. You need to make two searches, one for each script, in order to find all potential sentences. And you need to know how to write the word in both scripts.
Good question. It could be interesting to know what led to the decision of using POJ only on Minnan Wikipedia https://zh-min-nan.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th%C3%A2u-ia%CC%8Dh
I guess we can have a transcription system where users manually enter alternative scripts (without autogeneration), as long as there is a some way to validate consistency between the sentence and the alternative script, and of the alternative script alone.
As for mixing both scripts within a single sentence, I am not sure if we want to explicitly allow it. On the one hand, if it reflects real world usage of the language, it should be on Tatoeba. On the other hand, it makes it difficult to classify and search. Can you clarify if a typical sentence would include a majority of Chinese characters and a just few POJ, or if it's 50/50, or the opposite?
For your information, Tatoeba already has quite a few languages that use two scripts without automatic conversion. Just to name a few:
- Arabic/Latin:
https://tatoeba.org/sentences/s...ta&sort=random
https://tatoeba.org/sentences/s...hg&sort=random
- Cyrillic/Latin
https://tatoeba.org/sentences/s...fn&sort=random
https://tatoeba.org/sentences/s...rp&sort=random
Some contributors add both scripts and link both sentences to one another. Not ideal, and not officially recommended, but it helps with searching.
The Minnan Wikipedia was founded in 2004, at a time when there was no unified standard for writing Minnan in Chinese characters — the situation was fairly fragmented, with no academic consensus. Pe̍h-ōe-jī, developed by Western missionaries, offered a consistent and well-documented alternative, which is likely the main reason the Hokkien Wikipedia adopted it as its sole writing system.
The drawback, however, is significant: the vast majority of Minnan speakers have never learned POJ, and writing in Chinese characters has been the traditional practice for centuries.
In 2009, Taiwan's Ministry of Education published an official recommended character set for Taiwanese Minnan, which remains in use by government institutions today. That said, it has attracted considerable debate in academic circles, and many are reluctant to adopt it. This is partly because Minnan speakers are not exclusively Taiwanese — speakers in other regions have no particular reason to accept a Taiwan-specific standard — and even within Taiwan itself, the standard remains contested.
There have been proposals to add Chinese-character articles to the Minnan Wikipedia, but nothing has come of them, largely for the reasons above.
As for how mixed writing works in practice: most core Minnan vocabulary is of Sinitic origin, and for these words the character spellings are generally uncontroversial. The disputed cases — function words, sentence-final particles, and loanwords — are where some writers switch to POJ.
The proportion varies considerably and is hard to generalize: a given sentence might consist almost entirely of Sinitic vocabulary, or it might be dominated by particles and loanwords, in which case the romanized portion would be much larger.
Thank you for explaining the situation. I think that ideally we want to avoid imposing any standard and let each contributor use the writing system they think is correct. We can then attach transcriptions to help people who can't read the original sentence script, and to help processing and reuse of the data.
My understanding is that:
If a contributor adds a POJ-only sentence, it makes sense to attach a transcription in Chinese characters (using whatever transcription system since there is no consusus) so that native speakers not familiar with POJ can read too.
If a contributor adds a Chinese-character-only sentence, it makes sense to attach a transcription in POJ because as a long time standard it clarifies the pronunciation.
If a contributor adds a mix of Chinese characters and POJ, it makes sense to attach a POJ transcription for same reason, but does it makes sense to attach a transcription in Chinese characters only? I imagine that mixed scripts are mainly written for a Chinese-speaking audience, so they would understand the POJ parts anyway.
Your understanding is largely correct. I agree that for sentences using a mix of Chinese characters and POJ, there's really no need to attach a Chinese-character-only transcription. This is because the parts written in POJ are often those where there is no consensus on which Chinese characters to use in the first place.
I also wanted to mention that the Taiwanese government has introduced the "Taiwan Minnan Romanization System" (commonly known as Tailo), which differs slightly from POJ. Officially, its status is a phonetic/transcription system rather than a writing system, though some communities do use it for full-text writing. That said, I don't think anyone on Tatoeba is doing that at the moment.
https://tatoeba.org/zh-tw/sente...f_user/tsunhua
BTW, 472 of 482 Minnan sentences are by tsunhua. And it seems that they add one sentence in Chinese characters and then add the same sentence in POJ for every sentence they add.