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how does tatoeba deal with translating names, as long as they´re not related to any specific person? to me it would make sense, translating the "John" an english sentence to "Giovanni" in italian and "Johann" in german, despite the fact that a real John wouldn´t change his name. one could see the relations between the names much better, if they were translated.
so, not having found anything concerning that issue in the faq and after some discussion on this http://tatoeba.org/deu/sentences/show/780147 sentence i want to ask the community what it thinks.
I'm kind of conflicted on this. I agree that it can be nice to see translations of names, but realistically, it's not that useful. And it's mostly just certain European languages that have this possibility.
Another problem with names is what to do with different scripts. A lot of sentences with non-Latin scripts use Latin names, but on the other hand, you're unlikely to see Chinese characters in an English sentence. I guess it's best to go with whatever the usual conventions for the language are. It's always possible to add multiple translations for all the different possibilities.
[not needed anymore- removed by CK]
@zifre: you don´t have to use chinese characters, when you translate a chinese name. let´s say you have a sign that says "chang", why not just write "Mr. Smith" instead of "Mr. Chang" - given that chang really means smith? i guess it would work the other way around too and would not be too confusing.
@CK: by translating names one generates a sentence which is nearer to the language it is written in than to the original sentences language. so in the end it´s more standard-use but non-standard-translation.
@xeklat: significantly less people in here speak german than english, so i think it´s a bit impolite for an english speaker to exclude those who don´t understand german from you thoughts. nonetheless thanks for your approval.
@BraveSentry:
That seems to work well with 王/Wang/King, but is quite nonsensical. There are indeed several options to translate names, but translating the meaning of the name is none of it. Besides, what to do with first names? I know a Chinese guy, whose name translates to Clever Plum, another one is Marvelous Duckweed King. I wouldn't want to have my name to be translated as Manly Miller in any language. ;)
So. No. Actually *translating* a name's meaning is not an option.
>significantly less people in here speak german than english, so i think it´s a bit impolite for an english speaker to exclude those who don´t understand german from you thoughts. nonetheless thanks for your approval.
Could you please publish your numbers as you seem to know this for certain? (as a matter of fact, there are more german native speakers in this thread than english native speakers or even the sum of natives of all other languages, so your assertion is just bigoted!)
So it is impolite to exclude non-German speakers, but is polite to exclude non-English speakers? How supremacist is that? Who are you to dare decree what language should be polite in a forum?!
as you may know, there are no official statistics on who speaks/understands which language on tatoeba, but even though the number of german native speakers may be high in this thread, the number of those who understand english is higher. all of the german natives here (in this thread) are capable of expressing themselves in english. there are (yes, i´m guessing, but common sense seems to be with me) less non-german natives who speak or understand german than non-english natives who speak or understand english, as it is the lingua franca (or at least the one and only language that comes near this status).
imho the degree of impoliteness grows with the number of people excluded.
and yes, saying "i think" certainly has the status of a decree.
>imho the degree of impoliteness grows with the number of people excluded.
You are the one to want to forbid German from this wall! I, on the other hand, want to include everybody.
Tatoeba's purpose is TRANSLATION as it may have escaped you. So if you don't understand a post, you translate it or have it translated, or is it too difficult to understand?
In any case, that was irrelevant here for you to complain, since you were complaining against your own language, in order to show off your English skills and shut non-English speakers out.
Politeness is treating others on the same foot.
As far as languages are concerned, there are only 2 ways to hold an equitable forum: Either use a neutral auxiliary language or admit all languages. Any other way is rude and supremacist.
I'm for translating names if an equivalent exists. I prefer to see Icelandic names declined instead of an anonymous "John" everywhere :P but I would never translate "Mai 舞" with "Dance"!
For real people, I think the common usage rules. For example, in Italy we know Réné Descartes as "Cartesio", and so I would translate it. But we know George Bush as George Bush, not as Giorgio Cespuglio x)
For the Smith issue, I don't understand German, but I think Herr Smith is the good solution. Or, an equivalent of a very common name in German.
Names should not be translated. In fact, they can't be translated. They're unique. Smith, Schmidt, Schmied, Schmitz, Smid, Smidt, Smed etc may all share the same etymology, at the end of the day, however, they're not same name and they all carry different connotations. There's absolutely no point in replacing one name with another. All it does is make the translation less accurate. The only exception I can think of is children's literature, where the replacement of foreign names is justified in order to create a familiar and cosy environment.
Well, Smith is a family name, not a first name.
I don't see the advantage of having a foreign first-name in a sentence, which can't be declined or pronounced correctly in another language.
For family names, by my side, it depends a lot if it has a strong relationship with the content of the sentence or not. If "Signor Rossi" is just a general guy, I would prefer to have a "Mr. Smith" in my English deck rather than a Mr. Rossi.
(By the way, I'm also pretty against using tons and tons of different first and family name if that generates a lot of duplicates.)
I'm not really sure about this (will ask confirmation to friends) but it seems to be that in Chinese newspaper etc. they actually translate Japanese name, so that's the reason why I think we can't state a rule about this on Tatoeba.
Probably they have equivalents for Japanese names. French and Italian have not :O
> they actually translate Japanese name
Wouldn't that be importing the kanji and pronouncing them like normal? Place names are done like this too, e.g. Tokyo is 東京 in Japanese and Chinese, but the readings are "Tōkyō" and "Dōngjīng", respectively.
Japanese newspapers do sometimes translate foreign names. For example, Mao Zedong is 毛沢東 もう たくとう Mo Takuto.
And I'm for translating names, especially when they share a common root in many languages, such as John (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jo...given_name%290 )
Just so no one else gets stuck, the correct link is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_%28given_name%29
There is no 0 on the end. :-)
...
wa' DoS wIqIp. naDev wa' mu'tlhegh mughqa'laH vay' jIjatlh vIneH jIH je. 'ach vaj reH mu'tlheghmey mughlu'ta'bogh law' ghaj pong ngaSbogh wa' mu'tlhegh'e'.
vuDDaj rur vuDwIj; latlh nuvpu' DIbuSHabe'meH DIvI' Hol wIlo'nIS. DalajlaH'a'?
...
Yeah, I do speak German too, but it wouldn't spring to my mind to use a language in a forum that only perhaps 50% or less of the users might actually understand.
Indeed I chose Klingon to remind you that I (as others) consider it unreasonable, especially since your English seems so well.
What I actually said was losely, that I agree on your point about using multiple translations for one sentences, but not on your habit of not using English. But, well, your choice; some will not understand.
>your English seems so well.
=> your English sounds/looks so GOOD.
...
>but it wouldn't spring to my mind to use a language in a forum that only perhaps 50% or less of the users might actually understand.
Who says more than 50% of Tatoeba users don't understand German and they do English? Did you conduct a poll? Can you publish the results, please? Most users on Tatoeba are Europeans and German is the 1st language in number of speakers in Europe, far ahead of English.
The idea that English should replace every other language in international forums is abhorrent, especially when it is supported by non-natives who don't master it! It makes them sound like learned parrots or monkeys...
Actually, in using your broken English in place of your native language in forums, you're just shooting yourself in the foot and you will always sound ridiculous to native speakers. They love to think that you are an idiot!
as you keep demanding numbers: where did you take the numbers for "German is the 1st language in number of speakers in Europe, far ahead of English." from? and are you sure the survey did not only count native speakers?
Well, this is the reality and maybe you should travel outside of your microcosm to see it: Most people in Southern and Eastern Europe do not speak English, or no English that is understood, that is...
On the other hand, German is the number one language in EU for native-speakers, with 100 million speakers, and most people in Central Europe from my generation (and they're the vast majority of europeans!) either speak Russian or German (and sometimes French) as a second language but NO English at all, and a significant number of French, Italians, Greeks, Spaniards, ... speak German, as well as a large number of people in Northern Europe and the Baltic countries. That puts German far ahead of English within the EU and even more outside of EU in the rest of Europe. The perception that most people speak and understand English because they know a few words is completely misconceived, a misconception that is artfully hammered in the public opinion by the British government so as to avoid billions in translation costs that other countries are meant to pay.
I live in Brussels, where I daily witness debates in English that only native speakers dominate while everyone else shut up because they're too scared to reveal how poor their English is and admit how difficult it is to master it.
For instance, most young Hungarians officially "learn" English nowadays, but a tiny fraction (possibly under 1%) are actually able to speak or understand proper English.
Coming back to this thread and your supremacist attack, it is all the more pathetic since you are a native German speaker and lecture your own compatriots for using your language and theirs. How lame!
The fact remains that most polyglots don't understand English on this planet, and gauleiters like you segregate them constantly from debates so they keep mute!
"gauleiter", seriously?
"It has since become a term used to refer to any overbearing local official, especially one prone to the dictatorial use of political or bureaucratic power."
That is precisely what it is indeed !
*
>"gauleiter", seriously?
Yes, decreeing that posting in another language than English is IMPOLITE is no better than decreeing that Jews must wear a yellow star. it is segregation and the local collaborators of the Empire are indeed its "gauleiters". Do you prefer "Quislings"?
I think your comparison is disgusting. That's all I'm gonna say.
>I think your comparison is disgusting. That's all I'm gonna say.
Yes, I agree that segregating people along their race, language or religion is disgusting...
[not needed anymore- removed by CK]
>I personally appreciate the fact that you write in a language that I can understand and my guess is that most people here feel the same.
And what about the many polyglots who I'm sure also have an opinion on this debate but who don't understand English and are subsequently barred from taking part?
So as long as CK understands it, a debate is fair? How self-centred is that?!
I remind everybody that a VAST MAJORITY of the world polyglots do NOT speak English! What is this one-eyed dictatorship?
most polyglots may not speak english (again: could you post your numbers?), but english still seems to be the most commonly spoken language in the world. no i don´t have numbers for that.
if you think another language may be more appropriate, please use it.
>most polyglots may not speak english (again: could you post your numbers?
Well, that one is sooo easy, I don't understand that it doesn't down on you:
Most bilingual or trilingual people in Africa, India, China, Middle East, South America, Central Asia (that is a mere 80% of the world) do not speak English, because they already have to learn the lingua franca for their own countries, such as classical Arabic for people in North Africa. For instance, most Eastern africans must learn Swahili, even though that is not their mother language. Most bilingual Kazakhs/Uzbekhs/Turkmens/Azeri/Armenians/Georgians...speak Russian. Most Chinese have to learn Mandarin, although for half of them, it is not their native language. The same goes with Wolof or Bambara in Western Africa, Hindi and Hurdu in India...etc...
Adding to that, a vast majority of europeans who don't speak English do nevertheless speak a regional language or another foreign language.
If you take France, for instance, under 15% of people understand English, but 10% do German, 15% Spanish, 10% Italian, + 6 million immigrants from North Africa who are often polyglott even before learning French (for instance, half of Algerians in France are Berbers, so they are usually already trilingual...) + 1 million of Portugese immigrants + 3,5 millions who speak Occitan, 1 million Catalàn, 0.5 million Breton + Corsican + Basque, etc...and this is the same in Spain (where the cast majority of the population speaks Castillan as a second language), Italy, etc...
Not realising that most polyglots and translators in the world are non english speakers is just plain blindness or self-delusion!
>if you think another language may be more appropriate, please use it.
Well, I'm certainly not asking for your permission!
Let's please conduct these meta-discussions in private messages (or at least in different threads).
>Let's please conduct these meta-discussions in private messages (or at least in different threads).
Yes, I agree, so if, in the future, English supremacists could just stop constantly shutting off people who want to post in the language of their choice, it wouldn't happen. I suggest a wall-banner that clearly states that all languages are equal here (I know you would immediately want to add "but some are more equal than others", Swift...), or the blocking of IP addresses of users who segregate other languages, or both...
Removing the English word "Project" from the logo would also help people understand that it is not an English-only community, and would probably avoid deterring non-English speakers from participating. As I predicted, beyond the burst brought by the arrival of the Esperanto community, the contributions have recently dwindled. I guess one smart way to boost it back would be to look more inclusive towards this vast majority of non-English-speaking polyglots that I referred to.
> I suggest a wall-banner that clearly states that all languages are equal here
http://tatoeba.org/chi/sentences/show/3385 (I mean it) we should have done that before.
well, good to hear that at least you eventually care, sysko, since I think I already raised this issue in July and was then rebuffed by a ruffled pack of anglophone moderators who didn't even see a problem there...
Thanks for understanding my point and not deliberately missinterpreting it, like sacredceltic did.
I actually tried to make two points, and reading my post again, I see that I wasn't very clear. Of course I do NOT want English to be the sole language of communication here on the Wall. sacredceltic's recent question about that deleted sentence of course has no reason to be asked in English. I don't want to spawn a lengthy discussion again (in fact I didn't want to answer at all), so let me just make it clear:
I found it impolite not to use the same language as the one in the original post. Had I wanted to reply to sacredceltic in that post about the deleted sentence, I had tried to do it in broken French possibly (and thus having ridiculed myself, as he implied) or writing an excuse for not being able to answer in French and then posting in English.
The maximum-people-reason was a rather minor point, I wanted to make. That's for each user to decide for himself. It just puzzled me why someone would want to exclude non-speakers of German *inside* an English thread.
Thanks to xeklat for trying to understand me and reacting in a respectful and civilized manner. Also thanks for the explanation. I will not criticize your choice of language anymore. ;)
Ich hoffe, damit ist der Frieden zumindest einigermaßen wieder hergestellt.
>I found it impolite not to use the same language as the one in the original post.
Oh yeah? Warum so? Moi je trouve impolie l'affirmation du contraire, justement!
Pour moi, vous êtes grossier. Chacun voit la grossièreté à sa fenêtre.
>I had tried to do it in broken French possibly (and thus having ridiculed myself,
Vous le faites parfaitement en anglais, mais pourquoi refuseriez-vous de vous ridiculiser pareillement en français ?...
> It just puzzled me why someone would want to exclude non-speakers of German *inside* an English thread.
Mais curieusement, vous ne trouvez pas le moins du monde étonnant de faire l'inverse...Ça s'appelle juste du conditionnement. Marx appelait cela l'aliénation. Vous en êtes une remarquable victime...
1) Insulting someone is disrespectful, obviously. I don't think I need to explain that one.
http://blog.tatoeba.org/2010/09...espectful.html
and you're an expert at that!
aliénation: 2. En philosophie, état d'asservissement, de frustration où se trouve un individu soumis à des conditions de vie qui lui échappent.
http://fr.thefreedictionary.com/ali%C3%A9nation
Je reprécise que j'en ai assez que des modérateurs non-natifs jugent des mots employés dans des langues qu'ils ne maîtrisent pas. C'est fatigant !
Je me référais à:
>I had tried to do it in broken French possibly (and thus having ridiculed myself,
> Vous le faites parfaitement en anglais, mais pourquoi refuseriez-vous de vous ridiculiser pareillement en français ?...
Je ne vois pas où est l'insulte. C'est Vortarulo lui-même qui indique qu'il accepte d'être ridicule en anglais, mais curieusement pas en français. Il fait ainsi de la discrimination linguistique et je plaide pour que les gens se ridiculisent également dans toutes les langues.
Vortarulo was clearly joking, and you were just catching the occasion to make a not-so-polite comment about him. But it has no advantages to discuss that, because I already know what your answer will be.
>you were just catching the occasion to make a not-so-polite comment about him
Ohh..;so from "impolite" it has now scaled down to "not-so-polite"....interesting!
What was "not-so-polite", the fact that Iasked Vortarulo why he eagerly wanted to risk ridiculing himself in English but not in French?
I don't see what is impolite in this...Not my code of conduct, which doesn't include either not saying I'm sorry when I scale back an unjustified accusation...
Yawn it was ironic. My "accusation" is still here, a couple of posts above.
so why are you dwelling on it, then? I should be the one yawning...
As a matter of fact, you took that "ironic" pretext as an illustration of my beoing impolite. It's very vicious of you.
What? Could you put an object? What pretext? What illustration?
I was referring, with my "it was ironic" to the "word" "not-so-polite". I didn't mean to scale down anything. Yawn.
http://tatoeba.org/epo/wall/sho...1#message_5271
Tu ne m'accusais pas d'impolitesse, là ?
it's been several times that you insert "yawn" in the posts you address me. I warn you that this is not respectful and ask you to stop this.
http://blog.tatoeba.org/2010/09...espectful.html
"if you think a user is being disrespectful, send him a private message and ONLY a private message." else it sounds like being disrespectful again.
I think I can just show a link about the >official< policies.
tu devrais te les rappeler à toi-même...
À la place d'être si vague et d'écrire des mensonges, je te prie de répondre concrètement aux questions posée.
Je fais ce rappel parce que le dialogue en privé n'a porté aucune réponse de ta part.
Tu as insinué de manière répétée que je pouvais partir de Tatoeba. Et c'est aussi ce que ton copain Swift me pressure de faire par ses dizaines de messages privés. Cela s'appelle du grossier harcèlement et c'est un manque de respect pour la diversité d'opinions. Je vous dérange parce que j'exprime une opinion différente de votre petit consensus et vous avez décidé de faire toutes les provocations pour me pousser à la faute. Tu te mêles systématiquement de toutes les discussions dans lesquelles je suis impliqué, dans des langues que tu ne maîtrises pas et pour lesquelles tu n'arrêtes pas d'interpréter mes phrases de travers. Vouloir faire taire les opinions différentes et déformer les propos des contributeurs n'est pas digne de modérateurs d'une telle communauté...
Je considère ton comportement, sans cesse répété alors que je ne m'adresse jamais à toi, comme extrêmement grossier et je ne te permet pas de me traiter de menteur, alors que toi tu m'accuses de proférer des insultes qui ne sont nulle part.
"Tu as insinué de manière répétée que je pouvais partir de Tatoeba."
"Tu te mêles systématiquement de toutes les discussions dans lesquelles je suis impliqué."
En cours de français on est obligé à justifier chaque affirmation avec une citation du texte (comment je t'avais déjà demandé).
"...dans des langues que tu ne maîtrises pas..."
Donc je devrais me taire seulement pour ton jugement? "C'est un manque de respect pour la diversité d'opinions.", non?
"Vouloir faire taire les opinions différentes et déformer les propos des contributeurs n'est pas digne de modérateurs d'une telle communauté..."
Tu es libre d'écrire à Trang en lui demandant de retirer les status de modérateur à moi et à Swift, si tu penses vraiment que nous ne sommes pas digne de l'avoir.
>En cours de français on est obligé à justifier chaque affirmation avec une citation du texte (comment je t'avais déjà demandé).
Oui et bien toi tu as justifié ton accusation d'insulte envers Vortarulo de manière erronée.Donc c'est facile de copier des liens, mais c'est moins facile de proférer des accusations circonstanciées...
Par ailleurs, tu te poses systématiquement en Zorro du respect quand il n'y a pas lieu, puisqu'aussi bien, Vortarulo et moi avons mis à plat nos différents sans toi et de manière la plus civile. Donc cette discussion est sans objet.
Milan Kundera a proposé cette définition : "l'aliénation consiste à être "l'allié de ses propres fossoyeurs"."
...
Ich unterstütze dich hiermit.
danke, xeklat, für diese erklärung. und vor allem: danke für den ton, in dem du sie verfasst hast.
I agree with articmonkey, I think it's better to keep the name, not only because it's easier (at least for me :P), and because the official rules of translation state that we have to keep the name unless there is an official way of translating it (as in the case of Plato -Platón in Spanish, or Colombus- Colón in Spanish), but also because, as BraveSentry said, if you know of a Mr. Smith, you won't call him Señor Herrero, but Señor Smith. I also think it would be quite distracting and confusing to see in the translations of a sentence such as "Mr Smith went shopping" a Señor Herrero, Herr Schmidt, Signore Rossi, 昌先生, and a different name in each sentence.
I could see this working if we had a preëstablished list of names which must be translated. John - Johanno - Johann - Giovanni.. etc. and if we were to have a standard surname that would also have to be translated e.g. Smith in English and whatever surname is common in whichever language, to show that the sentences aren't in context and the name is really just a stand in for whatever you want to go there.
I think if we had a clear use case in mind translating names might be reasonable -- depending on what that use case is. However, as a general-purpose project that will probably be most useful in conjunction with automated procedures such as the one behind Google translations, we should avoid making things harder than necessary.
It's hard for a computer to decide whether a "Schmidt" in a German text (no preceding "Herr") refers to someone with that name (=> no translation) or to someone with that occupation (=> translation). Done right, our corpus will assist with learning the distinction. Done wrong, it will add to the confusion.
It's also not clear where to stop. Should we "translate" the many occurrences of Tokyo in our corpus by Paris, Berlin, Madrid etc.? I don't think so.
Related problems that already exist in the real world are described in this Language Log post: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/...es/005494.html (In certain situations Google translated "Austria" as "Ireland" when translating from German to English.)
okay, hans, you´ve convinced me. if this corpus is to be used by machines, translating names can indeed lead to problems, so from now on i´ll not do it anymore and i´ll review my sentences and change translated names.
Ooops. I just noticed that I seriously claimed that "Schmidt" could be read as an occupation. It appears when I am writing in English I cease to be a native speaker of German... Of course there are other examples that actually work, such as "Schuster".
Oder schmied :)
I'm just going to be an ass and reply without reading through all this discussion (sorry, all) to give my view. I haven't translated names, but /have/ replaced names with transliterations or useful alternatives.
In the case of transliterations, you can imagine 遼太郎 being transliterated into English as "Ryotaro" but into Icelandic as "Rjótaró". Hence, the English and Icelandic versions won't match.
Then there are sentences where I've replaced a name with an alternative Icelandic name to show grammatical cases or something like that. I wasn't sure whether this was a good idea to begin with, but then I figured it wasn't such a big deal and just tagged these accordingly.
Essentially, there is a utility to convention, but since it cannot be ensured (e.g. transliterations) it's fine to break away from it should there be some utility in that.