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DJ_Saidez DJ_Saidez May 21, 2021, edited May 21, 2021 May 21, 2021 at 3:30:53 AM UTC, edited May 21, 2021 at 4:49:44 AM UTC link Permalink

Edit: Resolved (thanks CK)
If you don't know how to solve this, you need to add an equals sign before the word, like "=expectations", clicking the "Help" button on top of the search bar gives you more functions

One thing that annoys me sometimes is when I look up something, for example "expectations", and it gives me all the forms of the verb as well, so I can't find the noun, even if I put the keyword in quotes.

Ooneykcall Ooneykcall May 20, 2021 May 20, 2021 at 8:21:29 PM UTC link Permalink

Understating one's knowledge of a language on the profile page (such as rating your English as 1 star when you're obviously better than that and can communicate nicely) in a show of modesty or just for giggles may be funny but probably confusing for those not in the know. lol

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shekitten shekitten May 20, 2021 May 20, 2021 at 8:38:10 PM UTC link Permalink

I'm just always genuinely confused about having to rate anything on a scale of 1 to 5. When it comes to languages, I don't want to overstate my knowledge; I'd rather understate it.

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DJ_Saidez DJ_Saidez May 20, 2021, edited May 20, 2021 May 20, 2021 at 9:01:33 PM UTC, edited May 20, 2021 at 9:02:48 PM UTC link Permalink

If I could choose, I'd rather it be on a scale of 10 because I don't want to settle for one point or the other, and I round down to be safe (I think my Japanese is 1.5⭐ so I set it at 1⭐ since I think 2⭐ is overshooting, and my English is 4.5⭐, and it's only at 5⭐ because other natives asked me to keep it like that) although that can easily be explained in the description
But honestly I don't really have a need to understate my knowledge because I already know I'm bad at all of them :)

Ooneykcall Ooneykcall May 20, 2021 May 20, 2021 at 11:02:46 PM UTC link Permalink

Makes sense. Point was, if you can have a non-basic conversation in a language (and discussing sentences isn't basic), then you're definitely better than 1 star and rating your skills as such is kinda silly and possibly misleading for those not in the know, i.e. rare visitors or newcombers. Just wondering quietly, not like it bothers me personally.

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DJ_Saidez DJ_Saidez May 21, 2021 May 21, 2021 at 12:58:35 AM UTC link Permalink

That's probably just how it is when dealing with self-rating.
You've got a range of people from those who are humble and under-value their skills, and those that are not so humble and proclaim full fluency in 5+ languages.

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DJ_Saidez DJ_Saidez May 21, 2021 May 21, 2021 at 1:25:25 AM UTC link Permalink

Prime example
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYP8Rcs3goc

GlossaMatik GlossaMatik May 19, 2021 May 19, 2021 at 1:12:31 PM UTC link Permalink

Hello everyone.
I found a problem. Some dialects are added to the language list, but it is just a dialect of a language. In other words, it does not have a separate iso-3. For example, in Shanghai dialect, I see Wuu is marked on its icon, and Wuu is the iso-3 code of Wu. Wu includes not only Shanghainese, but also other dialects, such as Zhejiang dialect and Suzhou dialect. Similar problems exist in other languages. For example, Kölsch is considered a dialect of Ripuarian,they share iso-3.
The solution is to change their names? Or keep it as it is, but give in other dialect a tag?

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Ricardo14 Ricardo14 May 19, 2021 May 19, 2021 at 5:14:17 PM UTC link Permalink

Colognian (Kölsch) can be added because it has an ISO 639-3 code (ksh) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colognian, However, Zheijiang doesn't have one - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhenjiang_dialect. You can request SIL to add a code for this language - https://iso639-3.sil.org/code_tables/639/data.
Hope I have helped you.

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GlossaMatik GlossaMatik May 20, 2021 May 20, 2021 at 2:50:54 AM UTC link Permalink

Thanks! But the iso-3 codes for Kölsch and Ripuarian are both ksh?

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Ricardo14 Ricardo14 May 20, 2021 May 20, 2021 at 2:53:09 AM UTC link Permalink

It seems so... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripuarian_language

gillux gillux May 19, 2021 May 19, 2021 at 9:50:08 PM UTC link Permalink

This problem (and especially wuu/shanghainese) have been discussed and partially solved in that thread https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/1670 but there is still some work to do. As much as we’d like to fix all the language names, each renaming needs to be studied with insight from native speakers and contributors. I suggest contacting sabretou if you want to help or inquire about it.

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GlossaMatik GlossaMatik May 20, 2021 May 20, 2021 at 2:52:25 AM UTC link Permalink

I’d like to help, but how can I help?

Yorwba Yorwba May 19, 2021 May 19, 2021 at 9:51:43 PM UTC link Permalink

As Ricardo mentions, the decisive factor is the ISO 639-3 code. While Colognian is grouped within Ripuarian, only Colognian has an ISO 639-3 code, so someone who speaks non-Colognian Ripuarian will either need to petition SIL for a separate code assignment or assimilate with the Colognians or they're SOL.

That means that, in theory, the language corresponding to ISO 639-3 "wuu" should be named "Wu Chinese" on Tatoeba. However, as one of the languages added to Tatoeba before we had a sane "not our problem, go bother those bureaucrats instead" solution to the language/dialect distinction problem, Shanghainese gets some special treatment. There's a very old TODO comment about this in the source code: https://github.com/Tatoeba/tato...esLib.php#L305

This could be solved by getting individual ISO 639-3 codes assigned for various subvarieties of Wu, but the only person so far who requested SIL to make such a change did a really bad job fulfilling the formal requirements and the request was rejected. You can read the change request and the rejection notice here: https://iso639-3.sil.org/request/2019-063

So until someone makes a successful second attempt, we'll have to use tags instead. There's a tag for the Suzhou dialect with 14 sentences: https://tatoeba.org/zh-cn/tags/..._with_tag/1864 There may be others.

If it bothers you that there are sentences in Suzhou dialect listed as "Shanghainese", we could rename it to "Wu Chinese".

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GlossaMatik GlossaMatik May 20, 2021 May 20, 2021 at 2:58:35 AM UTC link Permalink

I think it can be named Wu. Because Shanghainese does not seem to have a separate iso-3 code, and there is more than one dialect in Wu.

DJ_Saidez DJ_Saidez May 10, 2021, edited May 10, 2021 May 10, 2021 at 8:41:51 PM UTC, edited May 10, 2021 at 8:44:32 PM UTC link Permalink

In the Spanish interface, some of the logs are missing the date.
En el interfaz de español, a algunos de los registros les faltan la fecha.

For example / Por ejemplo
#7942751 Mary fue atacada por un leopardo en Tanzania.

The English logs say / Los registros en inglés dicen:
added by Seael, May 28, 2019

But the Spanish logs just say / Pero los registros en español solo dicen:
añadida por Seael,

Without the date / Sin la fecha

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DJ_Saidez DJ_Saidez May 10, 2021, edited May 10, 2021 May 10, 2021 at 9:22:04 PM UTC, edited May 10, 2021 at 9:22:12 PM UTC link Permalink

Same goes for the total number of sentences.
Lo mismo pasa con el número total de oraciones.

When I look at my sentences, the number of total sentences doesn't show.
Cuando veo mis oraciones, no se ve el número total de oraciones.
https://tatoeba.org/spa/sentenc...user/DJ_Saidez

gillux gillux May 11, 2021 May 11, 2021 at 12:08:26 PM UTC link Permalink

I looked into this problem. It happens because of a mistranslation of the Spanish UI. The date is translated here: https://www.transifex.com/tatoe...urce/186665868 (this link requires a Transifex account). The total number of sentences is here: https://www.transifex.com/tatoe...urce/163036559

You are welcome to improve the Spanish translation if you’d like. See the instructions here: https://en.wiki.tatoeba.org/art...ce-translation

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DJ_Saidez DJ_Saidez May 11, 2021 May 11, 2021 at 5:57:48 PM UTC link Permalink

Thanks, I sent my application to join.

DJ_Saidez DJ_Saidez May 15, 2021, edited May 15, 2021 May 15, 2021 at 4:53:18 AM UTC, edited May 15, 2021 at 4:53:31 AM UTC link Permalink

Thanks again, I think I was able to fix it, at least on DevTatoeba
I went through the entire script and replaced the wildcards that were translated with the original wildcards, along with adding a couple translations myself, so hopefully this is smoothed out now
There are still a couple translations left before the entire interface is completed, and I'd rather a true native translated the rest

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gillux gillux May 17, 2021 May 17, 2021 at 9:22:21 PM UTC link Permalink

Thank you for helping us with this! I updated tatoeba.org today so your fixes are now online.

Ricardo14 Ricardo14 May 17, 2021, edited May 17, 2021 May 17, 2021 at 8:16:50 PM UTC, edited May 17, 2021 at 8:17:06 PM UTC link Permalink

**Updates**

» Baluchi has been enabled as a User Interface language - https://tatoeba.org/bal

» 2 languages have been added

- Zeelandic - https://tatoeba.org/en/sentence...ne/indifferent

- Limburgish - https://tatoeba.org/en/sentence...ne/indifferent

quagliarella quagliarella May 9, 2021 May 9, 2021 at 7:43:03 PM UTC link Permalink

Hello, I've just had an error. The code was ''60983a67df34e''. I was searching for the word ''запас". The issue turned out to be consecutive and did not seem to be disappearing. Thank you

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gillux gillux May 9, 2021, edited May 9, 2021 May 9, 2021 at 7:47:34 PM UTC, edited May 9, 2021 at 7:53:29 PM UTC link Permalink

This was a temporary error. Thank you for letting us know!

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wolfgangth wolfgangth May 17, 2021 May 17, 2021 at 6:42:38 PM UTC link Permalink

I also have this error at the moment.

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gillux gillux May 17, 2021, edited May 17, 2021 May 17, 2021 at 6:43:23 PM UTC, edited May 17, 2021 at 6:43:36 PM UTC link Permalink

This was also a temporary error. Thank you for letting us know!

CK CK May 16, 2021 May 16, 2021 at 5:50:26 AM UTC link Permalink

** Stats **

1,186,073 sentences have OK ratings.
That's about 12% of our sentences.

These 30 members have made most of these ratings.

CK (831885)
PaulP (230521)
Guybrush88 (27736)
shekitten (8081)
Pfirsichbaeumchen (8047)
soliloquist (7097)
Tepan (6218)
Kirundicacu (4820)
MarijnKp (4522)
Selena777 (4349)
jegaevi (4345)
small_snow (4059)
deyta (3916)
Gulo_Luscus (3461)
Thanuir (3383)
alexmarcelo (2627)
tulin (2515)
tornado (2406)
dotheduyet1999 (1956)
Pandaa (1909)
driini (1713)
Wezel (1481)
odexed (1475)
Raizin (1397)
Elsofie (1233)
bunbuku (985)
raggione (942)
Aiji (942)
umano (809)
Bilmanda (775)

I did this for another purpose and thought that other members might like to know this information.

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AlanF_US AlanF_US May 16, 2021 May 16, 2021 at 6:07:04 PM UTC link Permalink

I'd be curious to know how the people on this list choose the sentences that they review and then mark OK. Do they consciously or unconsciously focus on any of the following? (Notice that here I'm using "native" as shorthand for "self-identified native-level".)

- sentences by non-native speakers who have explicitly requested reviews of their sentences in general
- sentences that non-native speakers have specifically asked to have reviewed
- sentences by non-native speakers in general
- sentences by particular speakers
- shorter sentences
- longer sentences
- sentences of interest to beginning learners (simpler structure/vocabulary)
- sentences of interest to advanced learners (more advanced structure/vocabulary)
- sentences with audio
- sentences that they themselves have written

A related question: do you use any means to try to randomize the sentences you consider, such as using a random sort criterion rather than a default ("relevance") or "shortest sentences first" criterion?

I worry that people inside and outside Tatoeba will use OK tags or ratings as criteria for deciding that sentences are particularly worthy of being selected/studied, or the absence of such tags/ratings for deciding that they are not worthy. There is already a high correlation between shorter, simpler sentences, and sentences that are selected for audio recording, and if these are also the sentences that preferentially receive OK tags/ratings, I am concerned that the diversity of sentences and coverage of vocabulary, here and in projects that use our corpus, will suffer.

In my case, I generally mark sentences OK only when the author has requested that they be checked. However, this does not mean that I think they're more suitable for use than other sentences that I think are OK but have not been singled out for review.

Please understand that I salute people for caring enough about the quality of our sentences to take the time to review them. I just would like to know how people are selecting the sentences that they are considering.

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DJ_Saidez DJ_Saidez May 16, 2021 May 16, 2021 at 6:44:54 PM UTC link Permalink

I don’t give many reviews, most of my OK’d sentences are from non-native owners when I come across the sentence, but I usually don’t search for sentences to review, and I do this for English and Spanish (the two languages I can judge somewhat accurately)
A good portion of my reviews are either “unsure” or “not OK” which usually mean that I want someone else to look at it, but those are sentences I come across as well and not ones I look up explicitly to review, mostly since I don’t trust my grammar knowledge to give accurate corrections a lot of the time

Shishir Shishir May 16, 2021 May 16, 2021 at 7:06:27 PM UTC link Permalink

I mainly put the OK tag in sentences that had the @needs native check tag. I check other sentences too (at least from time to time) but don't tag them as OK unless the user is very prone to errors.

Pfirsichbaeumchen Pfirsichbaeumchen May 16, 2021, edited May 16, 2021 May 16, 2021 at 7:27:56 PM UTC, edited May 16, 2021 at 7:57:57 PM UTC link Permalink

I put OK ratings on German sentences owned by non-natives that I consider natural, but I don't systematically look for sentences to rate. I often check sentences that have been added since my last visit. I never ever rate my own sentences. I don't rate sentences owned by other natives. I don't give negative ratings. After I correct a sentence, I always put an OK rating and an OK tag on it. I give ratings so people know they can trust those sentences and the authors also know they are correct.

MarijnKp MarijnKp May 16, 2021 May 16, 2021 at 8:15:13 PM UTC link Permalink

Most natives also have weaknesses with some rules of the language, so in my opinion, it's important to check all of them. So I'm always reviewing randomly.

I'm reviewing all the Dutch sentences, except sentences that have recently been added by myself. When I'm rating a sentence, I'm also linking new sentences and checking the existing links. So later, when I'm coming across the rated sentence again, I only have to check the links again and make links with other sentences which have been added in the meanwhile.

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Ooneykcall Ooneykcall May 16, 2021 May 16, 2021 at 8:24:24 PM UTC link Permalink

If many native speakers happen to break a certain established rule, perhaps the rule should be quashed and actual usage granted legitimacy :p (of course clear errors exist as well)

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DJ_Saidez DJ_Saidez May 16, 2021 May 16, 2021 at 8:28:06 PM UTC link Permalink

+1

Guybrush88 Guybrush88 May 16, 2021, edited May 16, 2021 May 16, 2021 at 9:19:08 PM UTC, edited May 16, 2021 at 9:20:22 PM UTC link Permalink

Personally speaking, I mark as OK Italian sentences from other users to sort of say that I find them correct, and doing so helps me to proofread, so that I don't have to go through the same sentences over and over; but I don't like marking my own sentences, since it may be obvious that i find them correct enough when I submit them (althought I may miss some accidental mistakes)

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DJ_Saidez DJ_Saidez May 16, 2021 May 16, 2021 at 9:22:12 PM UTC link Permalink

I don't mark my own sentences OK either, but I sometimes mark them "unsure" if I'm especially uncertain

Thanuir Thanuir May 17, 2021 May 17, 2021 at 7:44:15 AM UTC link Permalink

Merkitsen lauseita jos satun avaamaan niitä. Jossain vaiheessa kävin läpi satunnaisia suomenkielisiä lauseita ja arvostelin ja kirjoitin tunnisteita niille. Nykyään olen tehnyt sitä paljon vähemmän, mutta jos sattumalta avaan jonkin lauseen omassa näkymässään, laitan yleensä tunnisteet ja muut merkinnät sille.

brauchinet brauchinet May 17, 2021 May 17, 2021 at 8:17:17 AM UTC link Permalink

Regarding the value of OK-ratings, I’m a bit on Cabo’s side. You have to be an insider to know why some sentences have them and others don’t. I would like to assume that sentences are correct normally, (though they might not always be perfect and natural). Judging „naturalness“ is often rather arbitrary.

I do use OK-ratings when I explicitely want to state a sentence that might be doubtful for other natives speakers is good in my opinion. - for example when it features a regionalism I am familiar with. (I admit that’s maybe quite the opposite of what OK means to most people.)

I use the ?-rating more often. To me, it means „Not really a good sentence“ and I imagine it will be understood as „There are native speakers who think that’s not really a good sentence“. So maybe I can prevent people from putting too much thought in such sentences.

Cabo Cabo May 16, 2021, edited May 16, 2021 May 16, 2021 at 7:35:37 PM UTC, edited May 16, 2021 at 8:23:28 PM UTC link Permalink

I don't care about these ratings, only the 'unsure' and 'not OK' marks say something to me.

CK, you mark your own sentences as OK, and because of it you can't filter out such mistakes like extra words, letters in the wrong place... the same rate like a real double checker could.

CK CK May 15, 2021 May 15, 2021 at 7:38:50 AM UTC link Permalink

** Stats - 2021-05-15 - Native Speakers with Contributions **

http://tatoeba.ueuo.com/stats-2021-0515.html

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DJ_Saidez DJ_Saidez May 15, 2021 May 15, 2021 at 7:40:08 AM UTC link Permalink

Cool I'm exactly 100th

lbdx lbdx May 15, 2021 May 15, 2021 at 7:36:48 AM UTC link Permalink

** Tatominer **

Thanks to MarijnKp, Guybrush88, shekitten, Shishir, Thanuir, Johannes_S, AlanF_US, GlossaMatik, Pfirsichbaeumchen, manufrutos, Micsmithel, Ricardo14, Ergulis, GrizaLeono, Mtargem, felix63 and morbrorper for their contributions that helped move the project forward this week.

Check out the most searched words that lack sentences or translations in your language at https://tatominer.netlify.app.

espamatics espamatics May 12, 2021 May 12, 2021 at 2:22:36 AM UTC link Permalink

What exactly can we talk about on the Wall? Are we allowed to just talk about languages and get answers from native speakers? If so, then...

English doesn't have any grammatical gender, but as a native English speaker myself, I can still say that I (and likely others I hope) do connect some nouns to a gender. For example, I still consider "butterfly" and "flower," or "la mariposa" and "la flor" in Spanish, as "feminine nouns," and "volcano" and "alligator," or "el volcán" and "el caimán," as "masculine nouns." But there are a few nouns I don't think fit the gender assigned to them in Spanish. For example, "color," "rainbow," "bikini," and "heart" are all masculine nouns in Spanish, and "lobster," "meat/beef/sausage," "beard," and "snake" are all feminine nouns in Spanish. For me, cows kind of look masculine, but the ones that give milk are female, so I guess I can see why it's feminine in Spanish. But with that logic, "mosquito" should also be considered feminine, since only the female ones bite. As for "el adjetivo" or "la oración," I really can't say much about either.
Anyway, my actual question is, are there any nouns that even native Spanish speakers think don't match their grammatical gender? Or does the gender always automatically give the speaker an idea of the noun?

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DJ_Saidez DJ_Saidez May 12, 2021, edited May 12, 2021 May 12, 2021 at 3:47:30 AM UTC, edited May 12, 2021 at 3:52:42 AM UTC link Permalink

Even as someone who's spoken Spanish from birth and still speaks it now and so should've theoretically mastered it, I've mixed up my genders plenty of times
But then again I sometimes mess up pronouns and names in English with the people around me (calling my brother "she" and my mom "Dad") so maybe it's just that my head stuffing needs changing
Plus my language development was odd so I'm sorta English-dominant now

I can see what you mean about some words matching the stereotypes of masculine and feminine. Volcanos are strong and powerful, while butterflies are delicate and aesthetically pleasing. I personally don't think a lot like that since I'm not a huge fan of gender roles or stereotypes, and linguistically I've gotten used to the singular definite article "the" that fits every word. I mostly guess what gender each word is based on what it ends in, and obviously it doesn't work all the time (el día, el problema, la radio, la canción)

If everything would go my way in my Spanglish speaking world, I'd use "the" for everything and not worry about what gender each word is. I think that if some people adhere strongly to classifying each word to a gender, it's promoting a rigid system of everything being predefined to the standards of the past and the status quo, with not much wiggle room. Granted, that's a bit of a philosophical stretch, but that's how I see it.
Also, it's too much work for me to memorize the gender of each and every word.
So no, in my case at least, the gender doesn't consciously give me an idea of the noun, most of the time. Subconsciously it's still there sometimes, but that might tone down in a few years.

I do wonder what true Spanish-speaking natives would say about this.

As far as I know, the Wall is OK for discussion as long as it's productive and especially if it involves several people, if it turns into a longer, more personal convo between two users it might be better to switch it over to the DMs. But I'm a relatively newer user too.

Shishir Shishir May 12, 2021 May 12, 2021 at 10:25:32 AM UTC link Permalink

In most cases I'm personally just used to using one article or the other and don't think about it. In others, however, it's true that I consider some things male or female due to this influence of the language (such as the sun or the moon). In the cases of animals we tend to use their biological gender to refer to them and as a cow will never be male (that would be a bull - el toro) it has the feminine gender, in the cases where the word refers to the animal without taking the gender into account such as el mosquito and la hormiga, there are el mosquito macho and el mosquito hembra, la hormiga macho and la hormiga hembra if you want to refer only to one particular biological gender, so seeing an ant doesn't make me think it should be masculine because I know there are both.

espamatics espamatics May 14, 2021 May 14, 2021 at 10:39:41 PM UTC link Permalink

If I were to give every single letter a gender, instead of the all-feminine letters Spanish has, it might be: la a, la b, la c, el d, la e, la f, el g, la h, el i, el j, el k, el l, la m, el n, el o, la p, el q, la r, la s, el t, la u, la v, la w, el x, el y, el z.