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Wall (6,722 threads)

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brauliobezerra brauliobezerra June 5, 2010 June 5, 2010 at 5:05:25 PM UTC link Permalink

I have a game for you: "Tatoeba Typing"

http://braulio.home.dyndns.org:1004/
or
http://braulio.home.dyndns.org:1004/?lang=fra
http://braulio.home.dyndns.org:1004/?lang=deu
http://braulio.home.dyndns.org:1004/?lang=por
http://braulio.home.dyndns.org:1004/?lang=cmn
etc...

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Demetrius Demetrius June 7, 2010 June 7, 2010 at 4:06:11 PM UTC link Permalink

Please perform the following substitutions to make it usable for Russian, Belarusian and Ukrainian:
« » (non-breaking space) to « » (space)
«—» (M-dash) to «-» (or «--»)
«–» (N-dash) to «-» (I don’t add these, but who knows?)
«, », „, “ (different quotes) to «"».
I prefer to add these when adding Russian sentences, but most people have no way to type them.

Perhaps «’» should be changed to «'», but I'm not sure. Some people have only the first, some only the second. (Microsoft didn't have this in their Ukr. layouts up to Vista, so some people even use * instead!) It whould be the best way to add this as an alternative in a JavaScript.

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brauliobezerra brauliobezerra June 7, 2010 June 7, 2010 at 4:34:46 PM UTC link Permalink

I had noticed this problem, mainly with smart quotes. First I thought it was a simple matter of making some substitutions. But I guess the best solution is to let the user choose what character he/she will use.

For now I will make the substitutions you suggested (including «’» for «'»).

CK CK June 6, 2010, edited October 25, 2019 June 6, 2010 at 2:02:42 PM UTC, edited October 25, 2019 at 8:10:14 AM UTC link Permalink

[not needed anymore- removed by CK]

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TRANG TRANG June 6, 2010 June 6, 2010 at 3:11:52 PM UTC link Permalink

Yes, actually, for a long time already I'm planning to have a "links" section.

blay_paul blay_paul June 5, 2010 June 5, 2010 at 5:19:03 PM UTC link Permalink

Huh, I thought a word counted as '8 characters'. It looks like I've suddenly got much faster. :-P

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brauliobezerra brauliobezerra June 5, 2010 June 5, 2010 at 5:24:53 PM UTC link Permalink

I counted it as five, since this is what I've seen elsewhere.

contour contour June 5, 2010 June 5, 2010 at 6:14:50 PM UTC link Permalink

That's a nice utilization!
It matches the speed I get at http://www.typeonline.co.uk/typingspeed.php pretty closely - shorter sentences go a fair bit faster, probably because I can memorize them before the timer starts.

brauliobezerra brauliobezerra June 6, 2010 June 6, 2010 at 1:00:55 PM UTC link Permalink

Typing game is working again. Database server wasn't running after Ubuntu update.

JimBreen JimBreen June 7, 2010 June 7, 2010 at 1:26:17 PM UTC link Permalink

I was looking at the list: "English sentences in need of correction, confirmation from a native, etc..." and I notice I can no longer remove sentences from it. Some have already been corrected and are now OK, so how do they get removed from that list?

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saeb saeb June 7, 2010 June 7, 2010 at 1:31:23 PM UTC link Permalink

I think you need to press on 'edit this list' for the remove buttons to appear...

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JimBreen JimBreen June 7, 2010 June 7, 2010 at 1:38:50 PM UTC link Permalink

Ah. Thanks.

TRANG TRANG May 24, 2010 May 24, 2010 at 11:51:40 PM UTC link Permalink

Drumbeat - Register! Join! Like! (please ^^)

http://www.drumbeat.org/project/tatoeba-project

I have recently submitted Tatoeba to Mozilla's Drumbeat platform. This is basically a platform for people to promote their big ideas that can make the Web better.

I'll need all of you to register on Drumbeat, and to "join" and "like" Tatoeba! Let's make it to the top 10 most popular projects! :D
http://www.drumbeat.org/project-index?sort=popular

More importantly though, I'd like to apply to this Mozilla/Shuttleworth fellowship:
http://www.mozilla.org/grants/e...ellowship.html

Submitting a project on Drumbeat is the first step, which is why it is very (very) important to me that as many people as possible "join" and "like" Tatoeba on Drumbeat.

If I am granted this fellowship, it basically means a whole year where I can (finally) work *full time* on Tatoeba =]
Knowing that I currently work on it in my spare time, I'll let you imagine what that means :P
The current state of Tatoeba is really only the tip of the iceberg of what it could really be.

Now, the deadline is June 7th, so there isn't that much time left for me to:
1) Make a 5 mn video explaining the idea.
2) Write description of how the internet will be better if Tatoeba succeeds.
3) Define a roadmap.
...all of this while promoting Tatoeba. There is no way I can promote Tatoeba alone, so I'm really counting on you all, to get more people to support Tatoeba on Drumbeat :)

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TRANG TRANG June 6, 2010 June 6, 2010 at 11:55:31 PM UTC link Permalink

We made it to top 5 ^_^
http://www.drumbeat.org/project-index?sort=popular

Thank you everyone who voted!!

Now I can peacefully let fate do its job and go back to my normal activities in Tatoeba.

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Pharamp Pharamp June 7, 2010 June 7, 2010 at 9:46:51 AM UTC link Permalink

^_____^ i'm too happy about it <3

MUIRIEL MUIRIEL June 5, 2010 June 5, 2010 at 9:21:16 PM UTC link Permalink

!!! TATOEBA LOVERS OF THE WORLD ;) stand up for this wonderful project !!!
Only 2 days left till the deadline!
Only 9 more votes needed to get into the top 5!
Join and vote please:
http://www.drumbeat.org/project/tatoeba-project
;)

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saeb saeb June 5, 2010 June 5, 2010 at 10:14:54 PM UTC link Permalink

join and luv motha'lova's...matta' 'f fact, get you' motha', fatha', bro's 'n homies, dogs 'n cats ta join 'n luv

join or I shoot motha'lova's!
http://www.drumbeat.org/project/tatoeba-project

TRANG TRANG June 6, 2010 June 6, 2010 at 2:01:08 AM UTC link Permalink

@muiriel, the deadline is only for application to the fellowship ^^ I think we have a bit more time than that to promote :)
But even then, I'm confident we can get in the top 5 by tomorrow =P

And yes, I'm finally done with this application. Perhaps next week I can finally sleep at night :D
NOTE: If anyone is going to read the details and wonders why the content formatted strangely, it's a bug. Some HTML tags get stripped off, and I have no idea how to get around that...

Anyway, for those who didn't see, I made a 5 minute video for Tatoeba. You can watch it from the project homepage on Drumbeat:
http://www.drumbeat.org/project/tatoeba-project
or from YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ac9SmJuwHqk.

If someone has a looot (and I mean, a looot) of time in their hands and wants to make another, better, funnier, smarter, prettier -- or whatever -- version of the video, please go ahead :D

I would actually be quite interested in watching videos of "What is Tatoeba?" made by the community =]
Or videos of fake commercials for Tatoeba, that would be funny ^^

MUIRIEL MUIRIEL May 30, 2010 May 30, 2010 at 9:30:48 PM UTC link Permalink

*push*
I think Tatoeba still needs us. Trang needs us.
Register! Join! Like!
http://www.drumbeat.org/project/tatoeba-project
;)

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Demetrius Demetrius June 2, 2010 June 2, 2010 at 10:57:42 AM UTC link Permalink

*push #2* :)
We do want Trang to work full-time on Tatoeba. :)

I want tags, and lots of other features! :)

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TRANG TRANG June 2, 2010 June 2, 2010 at 8:45:32 PM UTC link Permalink

Thanks Demetrius, thanks muiriel ^^

So far we have 39 votes.
That makes us the 8th most popular project on Drumbeat!
We only need 5 more votes, and we'll be 6th.
50 votes, and we'll be 5th.

I'll try to have the project details and video done before the weekend. Then I'll see what I can do to get as many votes as possible. I haven't contacted yet all the people I could :P

Demetrius Demetrius May 26, 2010 May 26, 2010 at 12:16:02 PM UTC link Permalink

btw, 'dictionnary of sentences' in the project description has to be fixed...

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TRANG TRANG May 26, 2010 May 26, 2010 at 1:08:20 PM UTC link Permalink

Ah right, thanks ^^ I still need to improve this description though... I'm not very satisfied with it.

TRANG TRANG May 25, 2010 May 25, 2010 at 1:15:10 PM UTC link Permalink

Not to mention that if we manage to reach the top projects and receive some sort of funding, we can start sending all sorts of goodies to our beloved and devoted contributors :D

T-shirts, caps, mugs, scarfs, plushies, USB flash drives, beautiful posters to decorate you walls with your favorite sentences on it, the revolutionary pencil that will translate your sentences as you write them... You name it!

And then in twenty years you will be able to brag to your friends that you were among the veterans of this epic quest, which brought peace and understanding among all civilizations in the world, and it was all thanks to you! (Or something like that)

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Scott Scott May 25, 2010 May 25, 2010 at 6:15:19 PM UTC link Permalink

We still have some catching up to do to these guys: http://www.drumbeat.org/project...rsal-subtitles

What's interesting is that they're also a kind of translation project.

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TRANG TRANG May 26, 2010 May 26, 2010 at 12:49:15 AM UTC link Permalink

It was actually thanks to them that we learned about Drumbeat :) I saw a small link featuring their project on Firefox' default homepage, when I was at work. It directly caught my attention.

We're planning to contact them some time, because there is definitely a possible collaboration here. As far as we're concerned, we already had a discussion (a long long time ago) in the team, about how Tatoeba could be a nice platform to add and translate subtitles of videos. But, it's still not in the urgent things to do.

Anyway, thanks for joining and liking ^_^ We have 16 likes so far. Another 5 and we make it to the top 10!

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saeb saeb May 26, 2010 May 26, 2010 at 12:53:36 AM UTC link Permalink

we need TRANG to start tweeting! who's with me? (*cheers* tweet, tweet) :P

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sysko sysko May 26, 2010 May 26, 2010 at 12:49:42 PM UTC link Permalink

I'm with you
Tweet ! Tweet!

TRANG TRANG May 26, 2010 May 26, 2010 at 1:09:53 PM UTC link Permalink

Yes, yes, tonight I will :)

TRANG TRANG May 27, 2010 May 27, 2010 at 1:30:26 AM UTC link Permalink

http://twitter.com/tatoeba_proj...us/14795518311

sysko sysko May 25, 2010 May 25, 2010 at 11:02:29 AM UTC link Permalink

Yep come on join us, tell the world you like us (even if you don't like us:p)
it take a few time to register, and the benefit for us (you, Trang, me, everyone) can be really amzing:)
for a world where every sentences can be expressed in any languages :D

TRANG TRANG May 26, 2010 May 26, 2010 at 1:19:46 PM UTC link Permalink

We're in the first page! We made it to the top 10! :D
(...for now)

=> http://www.drumbeat.org/project-index?sort=popular

Can we make it to the top 5... =]

TRANG TRANG May 27, 2010 May 27, 2010 at 9:29:38 PM UTC link Permalink

Also created a Facebook group for Tatoeba.

http://www.facebook.com/group.p...29340017083187

If you haven't annoyed your friends with Tatoeba yet, now you have an easy way to do it :P

Scott Scott June 5, 2010 June 5, 2010 at 9:06:09 PM UTC link Permalink

Tatoeba mascot

Ok, crazy idea but... Wouldn't it be great, in pure Japanese fashion, to have a sort of small mascot to promote the Tatoeba project? and, while we're at it, also edict/wwwjdic. In the very least, it would be funny.

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TRANG TRANG June 6, 2010 June 6, 2010 at 3:17:43 PM UTC link Permalink

A long time ago I had a discussion about this with the very first person to ever help me code Tatoeba.

He suggested an alien :)

"Tout comme le pingouin de linux, le renard de firefox, ou encore le phénix de thunderbird, Tatoeba-project pourrait avoir une mascotte comme par exemple un extra-terrestre qui serait sur tatoeba-project pour apprendre à communiquer avec les terriens."

Not a bad idea in my opinion ^^

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saeb saeb June 6, 2010 June 6, 2010 at 3:47:57 PM UTC link Permalink

alien...reminds me of stargate...let's have a wraith as a mascot :P

Pharamp Pharamp June 5, 2010 June 5, 2010 at 10:15:53 PM UTC link Permalink

I can draw it :)
I really like the idea^^ but I think Trang should chose the design/animal/etc. before... you what would you like?

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Scott Scott June 6, 2010 June 6, 2010 at 1:11:12 AM UTC link Permalink

I kinda like these guys:

http://www.yamaha-motor.co.jp/g.../animal-japan/

Maybe the Hondo Stoat?

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Pharamp Pharamp June 6, 2010 June 6, 2010 at 10:47:49 AM UTC link Permalink

uhhhhh it's really nice!

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sysko sysko June 6, 2010 June 6, 2010 at 1:08:52 PM UTC link Permalink

but it's already taken by iceweasel http://img154.imageshack.us/i/iceweasel512ib2.png/ :(

sysko sysko June 5, 2010 June 5, 2010 at 9:08:36 PM UTC link Permalink

+1 though i've no idea yet

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Scott Scott June 5, 2010 June 5, 2010 at 9:12:40 PM UTC link Permalink

It should not be a penguin. :)

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blay_paul blay_paul June 5, 2010 June 5, 2010 at 9:13:36 PM UTC link Permalink

OK, this is a job for the people who brought us Windows-tan and company.

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Scott Scott June 5, 2010 June 5, 2010 at 9:22:05 PM UTC link Permalink



Please, no. (looks at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OS-tan) I was thinking of something more in line with the smart.fm owl.

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blay_paul blay_paul June 5, 2010 June 5, 2010 at 9:24:37 PM UTC link Permalink

Wikipedia's got one. ;-)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipe-tan

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Scott Scott June 5, 2010 June 5, 2010 at 9:34:27 PM UTC link Permalink

It's horrible.

xtofu80 xtofu80 June 6, 2010 June 6, 2010 at 7:53:25 AM UTC link Permalink

To the admins:
When I add a new sentence, I cannot immediately add this sentence to a list. The "->[]" Button does not work. If I change to the main screen and click on the sentence I added, then I can add it to the list.
Is this a bug?
(I use Ubuntu 10.04 and Firefox 3.6.3)

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TRANG TRANG June 6, 2010 June 6, 2010 at 11:36:56 AM UTC link Permalink

Yes, it's a bug. A small one. We'll be fixing it soon :)

Refreshing won't solve the problem by the way. The sentence you had submitted will be submitted again and it will create a duplicate.

blay_paul blay_paul June 3, 2010 June 3, 2010 at 4:03:54 PM UTC link Permalink

List sorting - can we have the [@moderator] lists show up at the top of lists?

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blay_paul blay_paul June 5, 2010 June 5, 2010 at 4:14:24 PM UTC link Permalink

Bump - for great justice.

TRANG TRANG June 5, 2010 June 5, 2010 at 5:50:28 PM UTC link Permalink

Actually, you'll soon have even better than that =] Just wait and see.

blay_paul blay_paul June 5, 2010 June 5, 2010 at 9:54:32 AM UTC link Permalink

Deleted sentences in WWWJDIC.csv

The following entries in WWWJDIC.csv have been deleted from Tatoeba, but still turn up in the download file. I presume that the deletion isn't as complete as it could be.

79714 324003 \N \N 夜 乃{の} 魔術師 よ[01]
79743 323974 \N \N 御|1(ご){お} 月|1(つき)[01] 様|2(さま)[01] は|1 三日月~ から[01] 段々{だんだん} 丸い[01]{まるく} 成る[01]{なって} 行く{いき} 又{また} 段々{だんだん} 細い{細くな} って 行く{いきました} 御|1(ご){お} 月|1(つき)[01] 様|2(さま)[01] が 出る{出なくなる} と 小さい お内{おうち} は|1 星|1(ほし)[01] を 眺める{ながめました}
82374 321341 \N \N 僕|2(ぼく)[01] が 思う には 君|1(きみ)[01] が 忙しい{忙しくて} も キッチン に 戻る{戻って} スープ 皿[01] を 持ってくる{持ってきて} 其れから{それから} カップ を ゆっくり 用心 為る|1(する){して} テーブル 乃{の} 端|3(はし) 迄{まで} 滑らす|2(すべらす){滑らして}
85053 318660 \N \N 不適当{不適当な} 手段 に依る{による} 自殺未遂~
88325 315382 \N \N 彼女[01] は|1 静か だから 君|1(きみ)[01] は|1 彼|2(かれ) に 気付く{きづかない}
94567 309139 \N \N 彼女[02]{彼女の} 顔|1(かお) 乃{の} 美しい{美し} さ[01]
97488 294213 \N He is going to the concert. 彼ら|1(かれら) は|1 音楽 室|1(しつ)[01] に 行く 積もり{つもり} だ
98813 304887 \N \N 彼|2(かれ) へ 乃{の} 信頼 を 失う
113856 289817 \N They chatted over coffee for more than two hours. 彼|2(かれ)[01] は|1 珈琲{コーヒー} を 飲む[01]{飲み} 乍ら[01]{ながら} 時間[02] 以上[01] も 談笑~ 為る|1(する){した}
119184 284479 \N \N 彼|2(かれ) と 取引{取り引き} 為る|1(する){する}
120670 283338 \N \N 彼|2(かれ) から 簡単{簡単な} 礼状 を 貰う{もらう}
123932 280063 \N \N 答え を 彼|2(かれ) に しつこい{しつこく} せがむ
123994 61746 \N How long have you lived here? 当地 に 生まれる{生まれて} どの位{どのくらい} になる[01]{になります} か
137566 275670 \N \N 大工 乃{の} 道具
137651 275585 \N \N 大海[01] 乃{の} 一滴
145945 268617 \N \N 色目 を 使う
145979 268583 \N \N 職|1(しょく) を 探す
147827 266733 \N \N 熟成 為る|1(する){した} チーズ
150160 264397 \N \N 耳 乃{の} 痛い[01] 真実
153659 260885 \N \N 私|1(わたし)[01] は|1 彼|2(かれ) を 誘き寄せる{おびきよせない} ように[01] 優しい{優しく} 話す{話した}
167592 246908 \N I didn't know whether I wanted to go to university. 私|1(わたし)[01] が 大学 に 行く[01]{行き} たい 事|1(こと){こと} を 知る{しらなかった}
171572 242603 \N Bring me today's paper, please. 今日 は|1 新聞 を 持ってくる{もって来て} 下さい{ください}
175096 239369 \N \N 謙遜{謙遜な} 態度
176945 15789 \N \N 君|1(きみ)[01] は|1 彼|2(かれ)[01] を 励ます~
182395 19573 \N \N 泣く{泣いている} 赤ちゃん
182836 19956 \N \N 喫煙 乃{の} 悪癖~ が 付く|1(つく)[04]{つく}
184531 21660 \N \N 皮{革} で 製本 為る|1(する){した} 本|2(ほん)[01]
190042 27199 \N \N 一面[02] 乃{の} 落ち葉
191518 28681 \N \N 愛敬{愛嬌}~ を 振り撒く{ふりまく}~
191519 28682 \N \N 愛敬{愛嬌} 乃[03]{の} 有る{ある} 失策
193929 31097 \N \N 若し|1(もし){もし} 貴方|2(あなた)[01]{あなた} が 此の{この} 海 に 行く なら{ならば} 私|1(わたし)[01] が 彼の{あの} 海 に 行く[01]{行きます}
197573 34759 \N \N ヒット 曲|1(きょく) 乃[03]{の} 無い{ない} ショー{ショウ} 乃{の} 様|3(よう){よう}
199347 36548 \N \N ナイフ で 彼|2(かれ)[01] に 切り付ける~
199744 36947 \N \N ドラッグストア 乃{の} 看板
214646 51939 \N \N 酸っぱい{すっぱい} 葡萄
221096 58418 \N \N 此の{この} 丈夫|1(じょうぶ){丈夫な} 家を建てる{家を建てた} 人|3(ひと) は|1 言う{言いました}
224694 62027 \N Between you and me, I think our boss is stupid. 此処{ここ} 丈|1(だけ){だけ} 乃{の} 話|1(はなし) だ が[03] 私たち 乃{の} 上司 は|1 馬鹿 だ と 思う
227994 65347 \N \N エース 無い{無き} 乃{の} 様|3(よう){よう}
232175 23957 \N What do you do in your free time? 暇[01]{暇な} 時|1(とき){とき} 何[01] を 為る|1(する){します} か
232197 69566 \N Do you have any sisters? 貴方|2(あなた)[01]{あなた} は|1 何人か 乃{の} 姉妹 が 居る|1(いる)[01]{います} か
232878 23957 \N What do you do in your free time? 暇[01]{暇な} 時|1(とき){とき} に 何[01] を 為る|1(する){します} か
396570 40988 \N The more you have, the more you want. 持つ{持てば} 持つ 程{ほど} 欲しい{欲しく} 成る[01]{なる}

JimBreen JimBreen June 4, 2010 June 4, 2010 at 9:23:43 AM UTC link Permalink

I like the new Paul Blay avatar.

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saeb saeb June 4, 2010 June 4, 2010 at 11:51:41 AM UTC link Permalink

me too :P ポールご主人さま!!

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blay_paul blay_paul June 4, 2010 June 4, 2010 at 12:20:58 PM UTC link Permalink

滅相もありません。ただの執事でございます。

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Demetrius Demetrius June 4, 2010 June 4, 2010 at 3:28:42 PM UTC link Permalink

You are forcing me to use wwwjdict. :o Nihongo o shirimasen.

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saeb saeb June 4, 2010 June 4, 2010 at 3:35:57 PM UTC link Permalink

I'm guessing the reply was specifically for me :P
...here's a human translation:
saeb: master Paul!
paul: nothing fancy like that...I'm just a butler.

saeb saeb June 4, 2010 June 4, 2010 at 3:42:31 PM UTC link Permalink

ah man it doesn't sound that funny in english :P

Demetrius Demetrius June 4, 2010 June 4, 2010 at 10:05:01 AM UTC link Permalink

I too :o

blay_paul blay_paul April 2, 2010 April 2, 2010 at 9:53:28 AM UTC link Permalink

Beware 'back-translation'!

This is a common problem in Tatoeba, because it is often unclear which sentence is the original and which is a translation. (Particularly for the Japanese / English pairs).

Here's a simple example:

Original Japanese
A) ペン借りていい?

Translated English
B) Can I borrow your pen?

Somebody then sees that 'your' is not present in the Japanese and 'corrects' it.

あなたのペン借りていい?

Unfortunately this is now an unnatural sounding sentence. Even if it did sound natural, doing this for every occurrence of 'your' would give leave the collection with far more uses of あなたの than you would normally find used in Japanese.

The same thing applies where the English is original. 'the' has no direct equivalent in Japanese so その (that) is often used in the Japanese translation of English. If you go back and change uses of 'the' in English sentences to 'that' you are probably needlessly altering the original version.

*******

@Trang : Maybe you could put something like that in your blog?

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CK CK June 4, 2010, edited October 25, 2019 June 4, 2010 at 6:05:24 AM UTC, edited October 25, 2019 at 8:10:22 AM UTC link Permalink

[not needed anymore- removed by CK]

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blay_paul blay_paul June 4, 2010 June 4, 2010 at 8:58:17 AM UTC link Permalink

The そのs aren't so much unnatural as the 'thats' that originate going the other direction (or when someone 'back-translates'). In any case I think we're best just persuading people not to over-do it when adding new sentences.

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JimBreen JimBreen June 4, 2010 June 4, 2010 at 9:22:51 AM UTC link Permalink

I wouldn't mind seeing some of the あなたのs and 私のs removed (it won't change the meanings and the the other languages wont be affected.) Just so long as you remove them from the indices at the same time.

I removed some when I was custodian of the JE pairs many years ago, but I got bored by it. I wish now I had done more of them.

JimBreen JimBreen April 4, 2010 April 4, 2010 at 10:08:57 AM UTC link Permalink

This is very sound advice.

TRANG TRANG April 4, 2010 April 4, 2010 at 4:46:57 PM UTC link Permalink

I have reformulated rule #5, previously "Do not change the meaning of a sentence", and now "Do not edit a sentence if, by itself, it is correct".

The content has also been readapted to include the problem you are mentioning.

http://blog.tatoeba.org/2010/02...eba.html#rule5

saeb saeb June 3, 2010 June 3, 2010 at 5:39:10 AM UTC link Permalink

I've got a lot of questions (banning me is always an option :P):

-what's Tatoeba's position on using sentences that are: political, controversial, etc...?
-how about ones that express conspiracy theories?
-can contributors mine sentences from sites like Wikipedia, wikia, etc..?
-have you considered just dumping a chunk of sentences
from these sites into tatoeba?
-how about tagging vocab and grammar points in sentence comments and linking them to sites that explain them...would you recommend it? would a specific format be easier to integrate later on?

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TRANG TRANG June 3, 2010 June 3, 2010 at 10:17:17 PM UTC link Permalink

Well actually concerning the grammar thing... There's some hope to have the tags done soon (not this weekend but the next one?). So it's probably better to wait for us to integrate tags :)

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saeb saeb June 4, 2010 June 4, 2010 at 5:23:47 PM UTC link Permalink

one more question (I'm so getting sacked for this), do you advise against linking in comments? If so..care to explain a bit?

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TRANG TRANG June 4, 2010 June 4, 2010 at 6:20:41 PM UTC link Permalink

> Don't push yourself to get this implemented. I never
> wanted to come across as a person who would nag
> *sighs*.

No worries, we didn't take your question as nagging or anything :P

We had already started talking about the tags a few weeks ago, and as far as I'm concerned I was expecting to have something by the end of June. But I guess it will be earlier.

It's something we all want to have soon anyway. It has a lot of benefits while not being over-complicated to implement :)


> do you advise against linking in comments?

Do we have any reason to advise against...? I mean, okay, if you're going to link to child porn or things like that, of course we're against.

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saeb saeb June 4, 2010 June 4, 2010 at 8:06:46 PM UTC link Permalink

ok here's a more reasonable proposal...Tatoeba recommends adding sentences in 'standard arabic' and requires all colloquial sentences to be tagged with the name of the dialect...then if we have enough sentences in a dialect (or dialect family) add it as a separate language.

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kellenparker kellenparker June 5, 2010 June 5, 2010 at 7:45:42 AM UTC link Permalink

I second that.

saeb saeb June 4, 2010 June 4, 2010 at 6:38:36 PM UTC link Permalink

one more thing...can I get an official statement on Arabic contributions to be strictly 'standard arabic'...so if anyone wanted to add colloquial sentences you'll just add it as a new language...

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TRANG TRANG June 4, 2010 June 4, 2010 at 8:21:36 PM UTC link Permalink

Yes we can make it official that it is standard Arabic.

Also I'm not sure I understand your reply to sysko ^^ Perhaps he wasn't clear enough, but what he meant to say was that we understand there are many variants of Arabic. We will add any "variant" of Arabic as a new language (as long as there's an ISO code for it).

Even in case there is no ISO code for a dialect, we can consider to add it as a new language (and making up our one code) if it's really justified to do so.

He gave you the task to warn us in case someone is adding sentences that are not in standard Arabic, so that we can create a new language for, it if possible.

(because of course we are fluent in Arabic but we don't have much time to check everyone's sentences, you know :P)

And I just checked the various codes available:
http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/doc...ion.asp?id=ara

It appears that we would have to change the code to "arb", to make it officially standard Arabic.
We originally took "ara" which is grouping all the Arabic languages.

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saeb saeb June 4, 2010 June 4, 2010 at 10:06:24 PM UTC link Permalink

anyone know where I could find the char sets for all these codes I need to compare ara and arb...

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sysko sysko June 4, 2010 June 4, 2010 at 10:14:55 PM UTC link Permalink

I don't think there is a charset difference as this code are purely linguistic :)

ara is a macrolanguage which mean the "set" of all this languages (so not a language by itself) and arb is the "standard" """""dialect""""" of Arabic

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saeb saeb June 4, 2010 June 4, 2010 at 10:30:37 PM UTC link Permalink

thx :) [god sometimes I'm really stupid]

saeb saeb June 4, 2010 June 4, 2010 at 8:25:47 PM UTC link Permalink

ok I don't quite get this why need any different encodings? I mean I'm perfectly fine with using my arabic keyboard to type in ANY dialect I know...

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sysko sysko June 4, 2010 June 4, 2010 at 10:06:05 PM UTC link Permalink

to be sure everything is clear, the iso code i'm speaking about is only a convention (a standard in fact) to give each language/dialect an non-ambigous AND international AND computer-friendly code,
more or less the same things which exist for countries (FR /GB/CN etc.)
so we're not talking about UTF8/ASCII etc. , just the way we store the language in the database (the unique 3-letters for each languages)

Hope it's clear now (but I fully understand it's not something obvious when you're not working in the backoffice of tatoeba ^^)

saeb saeb June 4, 2010 June 4, 2010 at 8:27:02 PM UTC link Permalink

this is the funniest misunderstanding ever :D!

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TRANG TRANG June 4, 2010 June 4, 2010 at 8:43:31 PM UTC link Permalink

:P

sysko sysko June 4, 2010 June 4, 2010 at 7:18:26 PM UTC link Permalink

yep strictly "standard Arabic", in fact we're relying on ISO 639 ALPHA-3 code, when taking this kind of decision (i.e "do we need to add it as a separate language in Tatoeba, though we're open if iso 639 alpha3 make no difference but someone is able to explain us why it would need to be separated)
and for arabic there is pleeeeeeenty of iso code, so saeb We will give you a mission
it would be nice if you can warn this to potential Arabic contributors, and report us when a new "local" Arabic is added :) this way we will add ASAP the corresponding code in our database

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saeb saeb June 4, 2010 June 4, 2010 at 7:34:10 PM UTC link Permalink

oh c'mon sysko this is serious :D
'standard arabic' and colloquial arabic...HUGE difference (yes kellen wanna have a debate about it :P)
I could only imagine that it would be confusing to learners if Tatoeba had a mixture of standard and colloquial. besides colloquial arabic has a lot of dialects that sometimes are not mutually intelligible (an arab who doesn't know the dialect won't understand). now do you want to have that all under one arabic language? your choice sysko :P

saeb saeb June 4, 2010 June 4, 2010 at 7:35:39 PM UTC link Permalink

I think I discussed something similar with TRANG when I asked for my native tongue to be added as a separate language on Tatoeba...

saeb saeb June 4, 2010 June 4, 2010 at 8:52:22 PM UTC link Permalink

sorry sysko...now I get what you're saying :)...I've been doing this from the start so it's alright...and my understanding is that all these codes are because IBM (and others) were finding smarter ways to encode the arabic script (and other abjads)...the only sound that's in some dialects but not in the standard is the 'v' 'e' accented sounds AFAIK...but they're included in ara so I'm guessing it should work for any dialect....

saeb saeb June 4, 2010 June 4, 2010 at 5:13:03 PM UTC link Permalink

Don't push yourself to get this implemented. I never wanted to come across as a person who would nag *sighs*. It's just that sometimes I find myself 'forced' to link to grammar websites in order to convince s.o. to correct his sentence...so I had to ask If doing it in a certain format would make it easier for you to integrate later on...

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saeb saeb June 4, 2010 June 4, 2010 at 5:25:18 PM UTC link Permalink

missing the time when I was the only one contributing to arabic :P...I guess we moved on from being in the feudal age.

sysko sysko June 3, 2010 June 3, 2010 at 9:59:38 AM UTC link Permalink

For mining from other website, you can as soon as the content is licenced under a CC-BY compatible or you've got the authorization of the original author to do so (for the last point a email of that guy with say "Me , XXXX YYYY authorized the use of my content under a CC-BY licence by tatoeba etc." would be enough, we're adult people uh?)
for Wikipedia unfortunately the content is licenced under CC-BY-SA and the SA (which mean you can reuse their content only if you keep under the CC-BY-SA licence) is incompatible with CC-BY (which authorize people to make derivative/extanded works based on ours under the licence they want)

for grammar point and so, we will add in few times a tagging system, linking some of this tags to grammar page explaining this, can be considered, but I first prefer to see how we will integrate it etc. but it can be a good idea :)

for the political/controversial sentences, maybe for legal reason we will need to add something like "people are responsible of what they post", but for myself I think we mustn't forbid them for a simple reason:
if we begin to forbid some, what will be the limit betweem a "not controversial one and a controversial", there will always have a category of people to find a sentence controversial/illegal, and them we will have loooooong and looooong discussion about "hey why this sentence is authorized and why this one is not?"
moreover I don't know about you but I find these sentence the most interesting because if they're controversial it's because they're real sentences about a given point of culture, and they have more value for someone than "I'm eating an apple". I didn't join tatoeba to make it a database of puritan-ready sentences
furthermore tatoeba is an "example sentences" website which mean it's here to give you all the kind of sentences you're likely to hear/read/say in a given languages, banned "controversial" one will be truncated this and it will not reflect the truth, only the "politically and moraly correct" (I want to be able to find sentences with "fuck" etc.). and example sentence means it's to show you an example of use, not to convince you about the idealogy one sentence can contain (otherwise we removed all the bible sentences, quote from philisophy books etc.).
I hope people who come on this website, and who will come, are adult enough to understand that, and I think things will balance themselves, you will be able to find controversial sentences which desagree each other. and you will have somewaht a status quo
I think our role is only to keep the controversial part in sentences only, (i.e comments like "Jesus sucks")

I will chat with trang and give you the general point of view,
"be conservative in what you send, liberal in what you accept"

(for tibetan, if you find someone able to contribute in it I will be glad to add it :) )

MY (have to discussed a lot longer with Trang and the others to tell you what is TATOEBA
s one) position

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saeb saeb June 3, 2010 June 3, 2010 at 2:12:41 PM UTC link Permalink

all of this is really nice but let's push the argument to its limits...now, are you guys ready to accept sentences from sources like bin laden's speeches...

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sysko sysko June 3, 2010 June 3, 2010 at 2:35:00 PM UTC link Permalink

in fact at least the content, as me and Trang are French, the server is hosted in France, need to comply with french law, so the thing that we cannot (as long as we will be hosted in France) have on tatoeba:
*negation of the Holocaust
*invitation to violence and racial anger
* (maybe other things, I will search on the subject, anyway I first need to have a serious discussion with trang about this, we will make an official blog post about this I think

for bin laden's speeches as long as they comply to French law about content, I have nothing special against it (as ever for the moment it's only MY opinion), and anyway I think they're copyrighted :p (except if one's can provide me an autorization from bin laden ;-)
my position on this kind of sentences is
“I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it”
they're part of what one can want to know how to say, and as said, the problem with limits is that you need to said arbitrary "this can done" "this can't'" . And as said, it's only example sentences, we need a dsclaimer for this, so we hope people to browse the sentences with that in my mind, the goal of tatoeba is not to say "all our sentences are THE truth" but only "this is a set of sentences one can say in those languages"

after when adding this kind of sentences, having them tagged "controversial" and a comment explaining where they come from, in which context etc. can help

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saeb saeb June 3, 2010 June 3, 2010 at 3:24:34 PM UTC link Permalink

it's all there...anti-semitism, holocaust denial, invitaion to violence, and much more goodies that can get you jailed in any country...that's if the CIA didn't get a hold of you first and send you to guantanamo. so sysko...still willing to "defend to the death" :P

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sysko sysko June 3, 2010 June 3, 2010 at 3:33:17 PM UTC link Permalink

yep so please avoid sentences that can get me jailed in my country :p (French jails are worst than guantanamo, ohhhhh mr sarkozy I was only joking, noooooooooo saeb help me don't let them catch me nooooooo)

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saeb saeb June 3, 2010 June 3, 2010 at 5:15:57 PM UTC link Permalink

he he...Imagine if I added some of those distorted qura'anic verses in salman rushdie's the satanic verses...you'll probably be assasinated even before the CIA gets you :P

quoting from wiki: "...others connected with the book have suffered violent attacks. Hitoshi Igarashi..Japanese language translator..was stabbed to death..Ettore Capriolo..Italian..translator..seriously injured in a stabbing..William Nygaard, the publisher in Norway, barely survived..Aziz Nesin..Turkish..translator, was the intended target in the events that led to the Sivas massacre"
source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th...es_controversy

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Demetrius Demetrius June 4, 2010 June 4, 2010 at 9:59:00 AM UTC link Permalink

Saeb, would you please be so kind to translate the sentence 398986 into Arabic? ;)))

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saeb saeb June 4, 2010 June 4, 2010 at 12:04:54 PM UTC link Permalink

done :)

Demetrius Demetrius June 3, 2010 June 3, 2010 at 3:23:21 PM UTC link Permalink

BTW, what about quoting?

E.g. Is «Путин говорил, что террористов нужно „мочить в сортирах“» (Putin said, that it’s necessary to ‘soak’ the terrorists ‘in the john’) a possible sentence? Does it violate ©?

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sysko sysko June 3, 2010 June 3, 2010 at 3:31:28 PM UTC link Permalink

Depends of what say copyright about quoting in the country of the author of the quote, to be honnest it's a legal question, and I haven't so much knowledge on this, so we need to search about this

Demetrius Demetrius June 3, 2010 June 3, 2010 at 2:39:54 PM UTC link Permalink

Only if they are correct Arabic. ;)

Nec Cæsar suprā grammaticōs.

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saeb saeb June 3, 2010 June 3, 2010 at 3:15:04 PM UTC link Permalink

give caesar a break..latin was hard anyway ;)
btw his speeches are not only perfectly correct arabic but are also very eloquent...[I hope I don't get jailed for this :P]

blay_paul blay_paul June 3, 2010 June 3, 2010 at 2:18:02 PM UTC link Permalink

Do a WWWJDIC search on XXX
http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~...wwwjdic.cgi?10

I don't see that we should be any more afraid of political controversy than we are of that sort of thing.

I would, however, suggest that dubious content can be rejected if it does not come with accurate translations.

sysko sysko June 3, 2010 June 3, 2010 at 10:00:50 AM UTC link Permalink

MY (have to discussed a lot longer with Trang and the others to tell you what is TATOEBA
s one) position => has to be read at the beginning (ohhhh a bug)

kellenparker kellenparker June 3, 2010 June 3, 2010 at 4:17:20 PM UTC link Permalink

I knew a guy named Jesús. He WAS kinda a jerk, but this is hardly the forum to air those grievances.

And all the successful terrorist leaders are eloquent. Otherwise no one would listen.

kellenparker kellenparker June 3, 2010 June 3, 2010 at 7:32:59 AM UTC link Permalink

you're so banned.

Things are already political in a way. For example: It's illegal in China (where I live) to show the blue Uуɡhuɾ flag used on the site based on it representing a ѕераɾаtіѕt movement. I completely agree that it's the best choice to use it to represent the language, but any time I'm looking at sentences here I'm technically breaking some law here. So if/when they add Τіbеtаn (please add Τіbеtаn), same thing. Use the Τіbеtаn flag? I think they should, but it's still potentially a politically charged decision.

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Demetrius Demetrius June 3, 2010 June 3, 2010 at 4:11:46 PM UTC link Permalink

Сап Татоева ве ваппеd iп Сһiпа sооп?..

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blay_paul blay_paul June 3, 2010 June 3, 2010 at 4:16:08 PM UTC link Permalink

Probably, if we try hard enough.

Demetrius Demetrius June 3, 2010 June 3, 2010 at 3:13:01 PM UTC link Permalink

Yet another question. What about orthography?

What if I were to add Pushkin’s sentences in the way he wrote it, with lots of obscure letters? ;)
«Цвѣтокъ засохшiй, безуханный, забытый въ книгѣ вижу я».
(Modern Russian: «Цветок засохший, безуханный, забытый в книге вижу я».)

We do have inconsistences in orthographies already: British and American sentences. Also, I mark macra in Latin sentences, while Muiries does not (btw. we have i/j and v/u too :))). Now I abstain from writing Cæsar and pœna, but it’s so tempting to use these wonderful ligatures...

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sysko sysko June 3, 2010 June 3, 2010 at 3:29:34 PM UTC link Permalink

the same with French, with accented upper case letters, (À but a lot of people write it A as they don't know/care about how typing it on windows), we also have this for cœur / sœur etc.

there I will say as long as both way are accepted/considered as correct, you can add as you want, I think it's a problem on my side to make my "delete duplicate" script able to handle this, for the moment the search engine already handle this.

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Demetrius Demetrius June 3, 2010 June 3, 2010 at 3:31:39 PM UTC link Permalink

BTW, auto-detection doesn't work with Latin if it has macra.

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kellenparker kellenparker June 3, 2010 June 3, 2010 at 4:17:58 PM UTC link Permalink

If we're worrying about orthography then saeb needs to include harakat :)

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saeb saeb June 3, 2010 June 3, 2010 at 4:26:56 PM UTC link Permalink

*debate!!* get over it kellen, the crushing majority of written arabic media(books,news,etc..) DOESNOT use harakaat...I personally find their use characteristic of children's books...haven't had them in my arabic school books since grade 5...they're just there for kids to sound out words...

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kellenparker kellenparker June 3, 2010 June 3, 2010 at 4:31:13 PM UTC link Permalink

yeah i know. im just messing with you.

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saeb saeb June 3, 2010 June 3, 2010 at 4:35:59 PM UTC link Permalink

ah man I hope I didn't offend you :P
btw I really want to add them...I know how invaluable they can be to arabic learners :)

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kellenparker kellenparker June 3, 2010 June 3, 2010 at 4:39:13 PM UTC link Permalink

no you didn't. i assumed prefacing it with *debate!!* signified not being serious.

learning is useful, but my motivation is perhaps more selfish: with harakat my transliteration script is better. i'm not cool enough to have it run through tashkeel first, though that would be badass.

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saeb saeb June 3, 2010 June 3, 2010 at 5:35:15 PM UTC link Permalink

yes indeed Mr. Parker as sharp as always :P

I think I finally figured out why japanese and chinese sentences look so cool...it's that extra line underneath...If I could just get my hands on one for arabic..it would totally be badass :P

TRANG TRANG June 3, 2010 June 3, 2010 at 9:06:23 PM UTC link Permalink

> what's Tatoeba's position on using sentences that are:
> political, controversial, etc...?
> how about ones that express conspiracy theories?

I obviously have the same opinion as sysko on this. But if question is whether we're ready or not, we're not ^^
Which doesn't prevent you to add such sentences.

But we will be more ready when we have at least tags and a way to filter out by default the controversial sentences. We can then let users search, browse or export them only if they have checked a little box.

Anyway, I'll write a blog post about it, to make this more "official".


> how about tagging vocab and grammar points in sentence
> comments and linking them to sites that explain
> them...would you recommend it? would a specific format be
> easier to integrate later on?

You can link to other websites in the comments but that may flood a little bit too much the comments.

I'd rather recommend to create lists for each grammar point, and add the sentence to the corresponding list(s). Then, in the title of the list, you add the URL to the page explaining the grammar point.

I think that's the best thing you could do.