> You say 'Globish' is ridicule, and you say the sentences on Tatoeba are 'Globish'.

No, I never said that. I wrote a few were...Especially phrases of non-English languages that are systematically peppered with useless and laughable anglicisms.

>so I'm sure there must be some misunderstanding here.

Yes, yours. If you read me correctly instead of calling me names...
You shouldn't mingle in conversations of other people when you don't grasp them.
Actually I respect the English language as much as any other, up to the point that it is actually my second language. I read and write daily in this language. I just deplore that people use it in the wrong way and at the wrong place, for no other purpose than sounding "cool".

tsss tsss...small player!

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globish

I swear I didn't write this article...

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/...t-globish.html

I'm so honoured that a word I am the only one to use makes it in the New York Times and the title of such a famous book ^^

Nevertheless, French & German courts deal daily with internet issues, including social networks, web translation, etc...and they pronounce statements in languages that are not globish. Doing so, they do exactly what they've done for centuries with other registers. I don't see a difference. See you in 20 years and we'll have a good laugh at it.
I have a good one for you: Lately, the phrase "low-cost" has surfaced in France to refer to airlines such as Ryan Air and means "à prix réduit". Most French pronounce it "low coast", though, which makes it totally absurd.
I bet with you 1000€ that French Law will still refer to "à prix réduit" and will not have adopted "low-cost" in 20 years. A bet?

And it is already written into Law...with official language.

Well, the French live under these rules since Louis the XIVth and have not deemed necessary to change its fundamentals across a revolution, 2 empires and 5 republics. I think this generation won't either.
We still continue writing ever more laws and contracts and everybody seems happy with that. Actually, I know of no political party or any civic initiative in France advocating the abolition of written Law, the mandatory education in the official language or the Académie. 67 millions of people agreeing on this should be significant enough, don't you think?
Maybe all the world doesn't need to abide by Gordon Brown's principles...

Germany and many other countries also have a written Law and subsequently have "official language" definitions and institutions.
Now, if other languages verge on self-destruction through globishisation, that is their speakers' problem, not mine, indeed.

But it is not the question. Today's youngsters who don't understand how French evolution proceeds will understand it in the course of their life and career.
What you must understand, which makes French fundamentally different from English, is that French Law is written and English Law is not, English law is based on precedence.
And Law is about everything, including sending emails. So everything is inscribed into Law.
So Law defines the language in France, that is subsequently used to govern and administer France, and percolates into business, education, etc...That is precisely why the French state founded the Académie, to help civil servants to define the language as unambiguously as possible.
Eventually, a majority of the population uses the official language because school with official curriculum in official French is mandatory in France and we're not going to use 2 different French when we also want to learn other languages.
Kids are very fine, but they represent a small (and decreasing) fraction of the population and eventually, they will also have to write and abide by contracts written in official French that they have to learn at school anyway.
The problem with contracts is, if their wordings are ambiguous, it makes them void. That is why, ambiguous words and spellings don't usually make it through to the official language. "email" is ambiguous, that is why all references recommend "e-mail"/"courriel"/"mél".
Of course, in informal language such as chat (which is also another ambiguity in French with cat), it is OK because the context is set. But it is bad habit for learners to study informal chat, because it won't help you at work when you need to write unambiguous reports and make speeches in front of audiences who are not part of your subculture.
Not being able to make yourself unambiguously understood by the largest number is a basic mistake, since language is about communication. Or what else ?

No, because youngsters don't make the language. There is an administration, Law, Courts, commercial contracts, etc...And these have more weight on the language, as history shows in the case of French.
Eventually, the French that becomes mainstreet is the French that will be acknowledged by authorities, whether you like or not. Sometimes, kids words make it through, but only when they are unambiguous and don't contradict the language pronunciation principles.

> Not that I think that's great, but it's the price of globalization. In a million years or so, there might only be a single major language.

I agree, and the natural selection rules dictates that this unique language will be the most efficient. Thus:

1) Everybody will be able to pronounce it naturally across the world.
2) it will be possible to write words unambiguously from hearing
3) It will be possible to pronounce words unambiguously from writing.
4) it will be possible for everybody to coin new non-ambiguous words from simple rules
5) it will be possible for everybody to decode new words naturally and unambiguously.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1spqX4sIDo

Well, maybe you're just too ignorant?
Yes, the excessive use of (usually bad) English and its ridiculous peppering in all other languages, regardless of theses languages own pronunciation rules or homophones, by people who find it cool to show off their English and subsequently forget the corresponding words in their own language, is called Globishisation. I live in Brussels, the EU Capital, and even the English call it that here. The euro-English that is spoken here is appalling and rejected with disdain by the English people themselves. As a matter of fact, since English has no official reference and is based on usage, English is transformed by globalisation with inconsistent influences of bad-English from all over the world, resulting in what the English themselves call "Globish". I learnt that very word from an English person myself. So in fact, the English have been entirely dispossessed of their own language. Former Prime Minister Gordon Brown declared that Great Britain (actually England, as he forgot that other languages exist in other parts of Great Britain...you're not alone to be ignorant, obviously, if it can be of any help...) "granted" this wonderful creation to the world. Well thank you, but, now that even English people don't make this mess out anymore...
I think it is a high level Scandinavian minister who ridiculed herself the most, despite probably 20 years of English-education, when she declared to journalists that she was "at the start of her period" when she meant her "mandate". Globish is indeed ridicule.

You can just dream about it. In 20 or 30 years, rules of pronunciation of the French language will not have changed.

maybe because I'm the only French speaking English and above 40...

> If Tatoeba is to be practical, it needs to have Globish. It's not crap. It's evolution.

Yes, it's called Globish. Why call it "French"?

I understood that already, and replied: It should be in italic. I was addressing the broader problem. Not only yours.

>I never suggested to not write it on the cover.
But that is how it is sold now. If you are a young Japanese student and you want to learn French using Tatoeba, for the moment, you can't distinguish it from crap.

2) "j'envoie un email" => is franco-english. It is not French. It shouldn't be under a French language flag.
So either you put an English flag (maybe blay_paul wants it...) or you create a "Globish" flag and you put it there with all the international crap that we read and hear all the time nowadays from people who think they correctly speak a language when they don't...

I'm not denying that these words surface. That doesn't make the language. Maybe it will, maybe not. "alunir" is a good example of why experts are needed. I discovered recently this debate, and I actually disagree with the argument of the Académie. But I bow to the Academie's conclusion because I support the idea that French should be as unambiguous as possible. "anime" makes it more ambiguous.
No, not all new entries in references come from usage in French. Far from it! Most words in French have been coined by scholars, since French is almost entirely an artificial creation, based on Latin and Greek roots that most laymen ignore (just think of all the words in Theology, Philosophy, Literature, Medicine, Geography, History, and all the sciences...)
Closer from us, the Académie coined "balladeur" to translate "walkman" and in my generation most kids used the English word. Now most use "baladeur" because it's a pretty noun that sounds more natural in French and is as self-descriptive.
As for Tatoeba, as for every internet tool, it is not only a service, it is also a window. That means that many people take what they see for granted. What would you think if German books were suddenly available in different editions: Normal german, kids German, baby German, Turko-German, Anglo-German and you wouldn't be able to know which version you buy based on the cover ? You would certainly complain it is unacceptable. Well, so here it is the same.
If some languages like English don't have any reference, that is its speakers' problem, but not all languages operate this way. Yes, there is usage, and usage is made of plenty of different forms. I know French kids who use words form French, Arabic, English, Wolof, Toucouleur, Romanian, ...plus Verlants (reversed) versions of all these words and all combinations of these different registers. That doesn't define French. If you want to create phrases in a new language that you call "kid language that I heard in Paris in september 2010", please do, but don't call it French. Because there is a 90% chance it isn't.
Actually, I know linguists are studying the birth of a new language in North East Paris. But it isn't French. It is a new language, mixing French, Arabic, Berber and Woiof elements with its own syntax and grammar.
Anglo-French creoles also exist in different parts of the world, but they're not French either. Nor English. They're Creoles.
I am not opposed to featuring phrases with "new" words in Tatoeba under 2 conditions:
1) these phrases must look like they're not in standard French (so I suggest italic) - so "anime" would fall in that category
2) these phrases must not be in Globish, because then it is not French, so either you define the language as "English"(if purists accept that) or create a new "Globish" language to pour the rejected crap (under what rules ??)

Well, actually, "anime" pronounced "animé" is baby-talk in French. It is a shorthand for "personnage de dessin animé" and it has been intoduced only recently (I would say in the last 20 years) after the japanese manga cartoons have surfaced in France in the 80s.
Why a noun was needed for those and not for the characters of former western cartoons is a mystery to me. The fact is that, at one point, it sounded "cool" to French kids to use that adjective as a shorthand.
To a person who doesn't know about the manga subculture, however, using the adjective "animé" as a noun sounds weird. We hear "animé" as being the opposite of "inanimé", so one wonders if the person using the word means it as opposed to deceased people/animals...So because of this ambiguity (that most kids probably don't perceive) I am suspicious that this noun, as such will ever make it in the larger public...
Kids don't make the language, or rarely so, because to coin a word, you have to know the other words of the language, so as to avoid duplicates/ambiguities, etc...
The same goes with "email" which not only is a plain English word, but also conflicts with the French "émail" and contradicts every pronunciation rules in French and this is why references recommend "e-mail", "mél" or "courriel" (which Larousse curiously says is a Canadian use, although public French authorities use it as well and so do I...)
We'll see what the future will tell, but I doubt words that introduce confusion, especially when they are foreign and must be pronounced according to nondescript foreign principles (which most people ignore. This is the case of "anime" since nobody can't see why it should be pronouced "animé"...), will make it through the times...
Anyway, you can't expect adults and authorities, law, ... to adapt to kids talk as soon as it pops up. Kids words come and go and often die out with the next generation. I, for one, won't miss that ridiculous word when it goes...

Well, good news, but:

1) References are written by experts. Experts need to make a living. So most of the time, their work is not free online. So we should not shun an authority because it is not free & online. An authority can perfectly exist on paper only.

2) It is necessary to devise a mechanism to "stamp" a phrase as correct according to this reference.

3) it is necessary to devise a visual mechanism through which a "stamped" phrase is showed in a different way from the way an un-stamped one is (like un-stamped in italic, for instance)

4) Moderators must apply the references.

PS: "email" is not in Larousse :)

Well, we have to agree on the definition of what "crap" is. And I am not sure I will agree, especially when it come to anglicisms...

>Well, what concerns non-standard phrases, I believe that tags should be keep track of these.
>If some word is a new coinage, or colloquial, it should be tagged as such, so that people who want to re-use Tatoeba data will be able to filter such sentences if they want to stick to the established word usage.
>Additional tags can be created for some languages. For example, in Ukrainian we have tag “Russism” for those who don’t want to use the language constructions influenced by Russian.

Well, that is the other current major failure of Tatoeba, in my view: The lack of reference and authority. We end up not knowing what a language is anymore. If I was to trust Tatoeba, I would doubt my own native language.
Sure, tags are a fine feature, but most people can just ignore them, and moreover, tags don't show up when you view translations of a sentence, so if there is one proper translation and others that are dubious/slang/alternative, and you're a learner, you have no direct way to know which is the "correct" translation.
To me, this ruins entirely the educative purpose of Tatoeba: If one doesn't know right from wrong, then the entire stuff is considered unreliable crap.
Funnily enough, this is inconsistent according to languages:
For instance, since all moderators are anglophones (when a majority of the world's polyglots are not...), English language is "protected" and treasured by them like if it was a golden icon (although modern English has no official reference but usage, so in theory, as long as a phrase is used by a single person in the world, it should be considered correct), but when it comes to French (which, unlike English, has official references), abuses of orthography is let loose in Tatoeba, with or without appropriate tags, in the name of "usage" (although this is not defined).
It is very nice to aim at picturing the various faces of languages, but you cannot allow this anarchy, otherwise it discredits entirely the work of contributors who want to produce "clean" translations. References must be aknowledged, and referenced content should not appear along with unreferenced one without proper markers to differentiate them (like italic font or something...)
Tags are definitely not sufficient for that purpose.