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frpzzd
hace 2 días
EugeneGS
hace 2 días
frpzzd
hace 2 días
EugeneGS
hace 3 días
frpzzd
hace 3 días
gillux
hace 3 días
frpzzd
hace 5 días
sharptoothed
hace 6 días
marafon
hace 7 días
Pfirsichbaeumchen
hace 7 días
[not needed anymore- removed by CK]
Frohe Weihnachten!
Glædelig jul! God jul! Feliĉan Kristnaskon! Feliĉan julon!
¡Feliz Navidad!
Gajan Kristnaskon!
Joyeux Noël :)
Buon Natale!
(And for me, there is still 13 days left before the Christmas ^^)
In order to make linking easier for trusted users on Tatoeba, I've created a simple "bookmarklet":
javascript:location.href=location.href.replace("sentences/show","links/add")+"/"+window.prompt("Sentence ID","");
Add this as a bookmark in your browser. Then, when you are viewing a sentence, you can click on the bookmark and it will ask for a sentence ID number. Type it in or paste it and it will then create a link. You can create another bookmarklet and replace "add" with "delete" if you want to be able to unlink sentences too.
I created this in literally three minutes with no prior JavaScript experience, so it wouldn't surprise me if there are problems. However, it seemed to work okay in my limited testing.
Okay, I've updated the code. Here is the URL for adding links:
javascript:var a=window.prompt("Sentence ID","");if(a!=null&&location.href.search(/tatoeba\.org\/.+\/sentences\/show\//)!=-1&&a.match(/^[0-9]+$/)!=null)location.href=location.href.replace("sentences/show","links/add")+"/"+a;
And here is the one for removing them:
javascript:var a=window.prompt("Sentence ID","");if(a!=null&&location.href.search(/tatoeba\.org\/.+\/sentences\/show\//)!=-1&&a.match(/^[0-9]+$/)!=null)location.href=location.href.replace("sentences/show","links/add")+"/"+a;
It's a lot longer now, but it should be more correct. Now you won't have to worry about strange things happening if you're not viewing a sentence on Tatoeba, you enter something that's not a number, or you click cancel.
Again, I'm totally new to Javascript and have spent a total of 15 minutes creating this and 1 testing it, so I'm sure there are things I've forgotten. Please tell me if you notice anything weird happening and I will try to fix it ASAP.
Hopefully, someday this feature can be implemented directly in Tatoeba. ;-)
Sweet! This sure beats the crap out of my silly little form.
HELP!!!
I don't know what's wrong, but I can't add sentences any more... :'( I can write the sentence but when I click on "submit sentence" it's not recorded, it simply disappears.
I have no idea; it seems to work fine for me.
One possibility is that the team has made a small update to Tatoeba and your browser is using old cached Javascript files that don't work anymore. Several weeks ago I had a similar problem when they made an update. Clearing the browser cache fixed it. So maybe you can try that.
hmm and how do I do that? (I don't know much about computers...:$)
Oh... how weird... now it works fine again ... Thanks for the advise ^^ (although I didn't need to follow it :S )
One of my sentences disappeared also and I tried it twice, but when I went on the next sentence, everything was fine.
Not in my case... I've tried to add the same sentence 3 times, and then some diffeerent sentences, and in all the cases I've got the same result, my translations do not appear...
Uzbek transliteration working correctly at least!
Sysko, thank you for fixing it!
Boracasli, thank you for constant reminding about it. ^^
(It currently has no dictionary so it may be somewhat incorrect when hangling loanwords and personal names. If you see some inconsistency please don’t hesitate to write about it!)
Uyghur transliteration coming after the new year! ^^
Can I add parentheses in my sentences as a comment? Like:
Original: Én elmentem a vásárba fél pénzzel.
Comment with parentheses: (Én) (elmentem a vásárba) (fél pénzzel).
Little clarification: Something like (Subject) (verb of motion && destination) (instrumental). I think it can be valuable, but I do not want to waste your precious SQL database with my sentence analysis. So I would like to post comments to my already written sentences. (I saw something like this in arihato's comments, and maybe I can do the same). Is it allowed or not? oO
In the sentence commment yep, but not in the sentence text itself. Because as the data of tatoeba can be reuse for any purpose it is important to keep the sentence as pure as possible. But as I plan with one of my friends, to focus on tools for sentence analysis when we will have finished a first release of tatoeba, I think I will add a field somewhere to add such informations in a more specific place than the "all purpose" comments.
** Tag cleanup III **
There are a couple of translations in this next batch so I'd like you to have a quick look at these. Again, all original titles are kept for later.
See:
http://martin.swift.is/tatoeba/...l_renames.html
Most of these are just for standardising the capitalisation of tags, but there are some renames and translations towards the end of the file. Some are simple "Ad" -> "advertisement" but another renames "family" as "relatives" as the topic of the sentences isn't family, but the relatives.
My search gave me the term "preterite" as the translation for the Italian "passato remoto" but please correct me if I'm wrong.
These and other rename proposals are marked with little arrows on
http://martin.swift.is/tatoeba/tags.html
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/passato_remoto
Oh eventually I can quote Wiktionary. I feel free.
That page defines “passato remoto” as “past historic tense”. The latter term's page[1] links to the Wikipedia page for the term which redirects to the article on “preterite”[2], the discussion page of which claims that the terms are identical in at least one language.[3]
Just to be sure, is it better to use “past historic tense” than “preterite”?
[1] http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/past_historic_tense
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Past_historical
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ta...erger_proposal
Well, I didn't quoted it to contradict you ^^
Anyway, I don't really agree with this translation. I would never call a "passé simple" (French) with the term "passato remoto", even if they are perfectly identical (for my Northern usage).
The difference between English/Italian increases a lot in usage, therefore an English preterite could be translated in two different ways in Italian, and always one of them isn't a preterite. The same thing happens for Spanish/Italian pairs. I don't really know how to resolve this :/
Oh, by the way, does anyone have any input on what the “passé simple” should be called? “Passé simple”, “simple past”, “preterite”, “passé défini”, definite past or something else entirely?
Just to avoid a misunderstanding (not the least on my side), this isn't a question of finding corresponding sentences, but the term which would be used for the original sentence.
So, if there was a sentence in French that was in what the French would call the passé simple, the tag shouldn't say which tense the English sentence would be in, but rather which tense English linguists would use to describe the French sentence. While some translations would all use the same tag (e.g. topical tags), grammatical tags would differ with translations of each other.
Once we get the translation feature, that sentence would then say “passé simple” in the French interface. The question is what the English interface should say.
I will ask my English (well she's Italian) teacher about it tomorrow. I perfectly see your point, but I imagine we need a linguist or something more expert. Ohoh, maybe my teacher is. (>Pharamp doubts it<)
Reading foreigners talking about the classification of french tenses with english tags could be hilarious. It is just sad, alas...
This is the very reason I stopped contributing to Tatoeba: Anglophone kids deciding, in English, what French is. Already with English, they have enough problems...
Have fun!
I guess the English interface should say 'French "passé simple"'. If it is impossible or misleading to translate, don't translate.
I agree ^^
Imperfect tense?
No, in French there are the "passé composé" (il a marché), the imperfect (l'imparfait, il marchait) and the "passé simple" (il marcha). And as fas as I know, preterite means that something happened in the past, so it doesn't work either because it can refer to any of them... In this case I'd choose to keep the French term, "passé simple" to avoid misunderstandings.
Preterite is a verb form found in some languages. The "passé simple" translates to "simple past" so that's what I would use.
But I think that would lead to misunderstandings because the people learning French maybe would think that this is the equivalent to the English "simple past", and this is not true.
Technically there is no "simple past" in English. Beginners to learning a foreign language or people who don't know much about English might have trouble with it, but simple past =/= preterite.
Wow... I had always been taught that the English past tense (e.g. he broke, she looked...) was the "simple past" [1]...
Then what's the name of the English past tense? preterite?
[1] http://www2.gsu.edu/~wwwesl/egw/verbs.htm
http://www.usingenglish.com/ref...regular-verbs/
Yeah, I've always heard it called "simple past" or just "past". (Of course, this is high school English in America. They don't wan't to scare people with big scary linguistic terms like "preterite". :P)
I've never heard anyone use the word "preterite" not in reference to tenses in foreign languages.
Here is a list of what I would call all the English tenses:
He will walk -> future
He will be walking -> future progressive
He will have walked -> future perfect
He walks -> present
He is walking -> present progressive
He has walked -> present perfect
He walked -> (simple) past
He was walking -> past progressive
He had walked -> past perfect (pluperfect)
Technically, there are only two tenses in English: present and past
simple, progressive, and perfect are aspects
I was talking about the French simple past doesn't equal what in English is known as the "simple past". They were afraid of people confusing the French simple past and the English "simple past" when they're not the same thing. The actual term for it in English is the preterite.
No, I believe that the imperfect tense is something else entirely.
I would say preterite. At least that's what the corresponding Spanish tense (el pretérito) is usually called in English.
The corresponding English tense (e.g. "he walked") is usually just called "past", since there are no imperfect or other past tenses.
Well "he walked" is the preterite in English technically. German has the imperfect which equates to the English preterite. But I just found out there's a difference between imperfect and the simple past in French.
I would go with simple past or keep the French phrase, because it's kind of specific to French unless it applies to another language.
I believe the French "passé simple" exists in many Romance languages (and probably other Indo-European languages as well). I know it exists in Spanish.
The only difference is that it is rarely used in French, while it is very common in Spanish.
I'm pretty sure that the English past tense (e.g. "he walked") is from the same origin as the Spanish preterite and French passé simple. English has no real imperfect tense. Obviously, the perfect tenses in all three languages are related. (e.g. "He has walked" vs. "Él ha caminado")
Two comments: first, in Spanish we don't have any tense called "past simple", we have "indefinite praeteritum" & "imperfect praeteritum", and they do NOT match with the use of the French passé simple. In Italian I guess the pasato remoto is used more or less in the same situations as the passé simple, but that's it.
And taking your own example, if you say in French "il a marché", you can translate it to English as "he has walked" and "he walked"; and to Spanish as "él ha caminado" and "él caminó". There's no true equivalent in Spanish to the passé simple. French people use the passé simple (as far as I know) only in formal contexts, and mainly in literature and newspapers, that's why I'd rather have it clearly tagged so that learners (like me) can actually see that this is not the usual tense and not simply think that this is the equivalent of Spanish "pretérito indefinido" or English "simple past". Maybe they all came from the same thing, but they are no longer used in the same contexts or situations.
Yes, the simple past forms (passé simple in French, pretérito indefinido in Spanish, pretérito perfeito in Portuguese) have the same origin, i.e., the Latin perfect form. As you might know, the original Latin did not have composed forms, only simple forms. Later, composed forms (j'ai fait, yo he hecho, eu tem feito) became common, but it took some time for them to "travel" from Rome, where new fashions where created, to the periphery. Therefore, in French, the passé simple is not use any more in spoken language. In Spanish, the simple and composed forms are used in parallel, but for expressing different situation (although in South American Spanish, the simple form is also used for cases where in Spain the composed form is used). In Portuguese (I do only know well the Portuguese of Brasil) the simple form is the most common, whereas you do not really have to use the composed form (interesting also that Portuguese uses "ter" = Latin "tenere" instead of "haver" = Latin "habere" to form the composed forms, as the other Romanic languages do: French "avoir", Spanish "haber"). Also, Portuguese is the only Romanic language that has preserved a simple form for the past perfect ("fizera", also "tinha feito"). This has been replaced by the composed forms in the other Romanic languages ("avais fait", "había hecho"). I don't know enough Italian to say, but following the theory of fashions originating from Rome, I suppose that the simple form might have even less importance than in French or might have disappeared at all.
The expressions "perfect" and "imperfect" refer, as far as I know, to the usage of the corresponding past tenses (praeteritum = passed by (= German vorübergegangen)) in Latin: "perfect" means "terminated", i.e., the praeteritum perfectum was used for actions that started and ended in the past, whereas the praeteritum imperfectum ("not terminated") for actions that started in the past and persisted till the present.
That means, there exist different denominations for the tenses, some originating from its grammatical structure (passé simple), some from its usage ("perfect", "imperfect"). As the usage of the tenses differes considerably between the languages, it is very difficult to find good translations, or even impossible. I would stick to the original expressions of the individual language.
Due to the different usage of the tenses in the different languages, it is very difficult to translate the tenses in sentences correctly, as a single sentence rarely deliveres the context...
>in French, the passé simple is not use any more in spoken language.
I beg to differ. The french passé simple is a narrative tense, along with the passé antérieur and they are used to tell stories, irrelevant of whether they're written OR SPOKEN.
As such, passé simple has ALWAYS been used to tell stories, no less now than before.
It is true that passé composé tends to replace passé simple and plus-que-parfait the passé antérieur, in the spoken narrative of uneducated people, but not everybody is uneducated or speaks a broken French. I use passé simple to tell stories, and I love it because it is so much more beautiful.
Actually, passé simple is familiar to people whose parents read or told them stories as they were children. Hence the charm that is ascribed to it, which is also the reason why it sounds unfamiliar to uneducated or poorly educated people, or people who never read stories.
As people who don't read - or are not being read to - greatly outnumber those who do, especially in the younger generation, the perception that passé simple "is disappearing" or "is outdated" is dominant, although it is plain wrong, as any educated story-teller will prove.
"Il se marièrent et eurent beaucoup d'enfants...analphabètes." Voilà !
Sorry, I should have been more clear. I was referring to the linguistic origins of the tenses, not their usage (which is obviously very different in all three languages).
Also, in English, I've always heard the Spanish tenses referred to like this:
caminó -> preterite
caminaba -> imperfect
ha caminado -> (present) perfect
Maybe it's just some oddity of my school's Spanish curriculum, but I've never heard "preterite" refer to any of the tenses except for the first one above.
I agree that it's probably best to use a special tag for the French tense since it's so rare and doesn't correspond well in usage to any tense in any other language.
Just a little annotation (not directly for you, Zifre ;) )
Standard Italian usage is exactly the same as French.
In (Deep) Southern Italy you can easily listen to old people using the "passato remoto" exactly as the Spanish "preterite"/caminó, but it's not correct or standardised at all for what I know.
Moreover, sentences here in Tatoeba are mainly written by me and Guybrush88: as we are both from the same region in the Centre-North, we can be quite sure that we still haven't any Italian sentence using the "passato remoto" like in Spanish.
All this because! I would like a special tag for Italian too :P
As I said; just to be sure. I wasn't sure since there were conflicting information and you didn't appear to have written the Wiktionary page. I'll change the term to “past historic tense”. Thanks for clearing this up.
Olá, eu comecei a traduzir o guia do colaborador para português. Porém, estou sem tempo e estou traduzindo bem aos poucos. Quem quiser ajudar, é só me avisar que eu dou permissão de edição. Segue o link:
https://docs.google.com/documen...icR9267fVh-YOA
Now the pinyin, script detection / script conversion for sentences is made by a homebrew software, it should fix all the problems of strange conversion (trash characters etc.).
As said, as it's "homebrew", if you find a non-accurate transcription/segmentation or a bug, please report it here :)
Where should one report bugs in the Cantonese romanization? For example, in this sentence (http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/676270), the characters are:
我次次聽呢首歌都會聽到喊。
Currently, this is generated:
ngo⁵ ci³ ci³ ting³ ne¹ sau² go¹ dou¹ wui⁶ ting³ dou³ ham⁶ .
However, some of the words are incorrectly romanized. It should be:
ngo⁵ ci³ ci³ ting¹ ni¹ sau² go¹ dou¹ wui⁶ ting¹ dou³ haam³.
You can give the sentence an “incorrect transcription” tag, or maybe leave a comment to point out the mistakes, too.
Actually, I’m currently in the process of proofreading all the Cantonese sentences and making a list of pronunciations of my own. After I’m finished with the list and the list is imported into the database, most of the wrong romanizations should be fixed. :-)
(By the way, the “wui⁶” in the romanization of the sentence is wrong too. It should be “wui⁵.” Also, 聽 is only pronounced as “ting¹” when it’s combined with other characters like 日, 朝 and 晚 to mean “tomorrow”. When meaning “to listen”, it’s usually pronounced “teng¹.” Therefore, the correct romanization of the sentence “我次次聽呢首歌都會聽到喊” would be: “ngo⁵ ci³ ci³ teng¹ ni¹ sau² go¹ dou¹ wui⁵ teng¹ dou³ haam³.”)
for those interested I will try to clean up the code, add some docs, and release it as a free software.
I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask, but as for the Cantonese romanization, are there anything I can do to help? Like compiling a list of words with the corresponding pronunciations?
what a coincidence, I was speaking with Demetrius last time and he showed me a list of cantonese words with romanization, so I'm adapting "sinoparser" (let's call this software this way, except if someone has an idea for a better name) to support Cantonese with jyutping :)
It's great to hear that the Cantonese sentences are going to have romanizations soon ;-) ! But since a lot of the Chinese characters have multiple pronunciations in Cantonese, I think we also need to make the romanizations editable.
For example, 咪,
when meaning "microphone," is pronounced "mai1"
when meaning "don't," is pronounced "mai5"
when meaning "as a result", is pronounced "mai6"
It would be difficult for computers to decide which pronunciation to use...
ok I've finished it, now I just need to integrate it. It will produce maybe less accurate result, and will maybe often cut it character by character as the data file I use for the cantonese has "only" 45000 entries (which is low if you count all the entry for every single sinogram, there is no so much "words") , and the one for mandarin, more than 200 000. But I will try to find other "open source" dictionnaries to have a better word segmentation with a pronounciation generated from the current data file, and after with the help of tatoeba we will able to raffine this step by step
@nickyeow for the problem you're talking about is it like in Mandarin for 的 which can be "de" or "di" but that we can guess 95% of the time automatically because alone it's "de" and by having the entry "的确" => "dique" we can handle this '(i.e if you are able to segment correctly the sentence then you can guess 99% of the time which romanization it is)
or is it much more like Japanese, where even if you're able to segment the sentence into "words" the pronounciation differ depending on the meaning of the words (i.e you need to understand the sentence to guess which one to choose)
?
if it's the first case, then it can be solve by adding more data (which mean I can continue to use the same algorithm for generating the romanization of Cantonese)
otherwise it will need a new layer on my software, add a grammar analyser to the current lexical parser.
I think Cantonese is more similar to Mandarin in this regard, and a large part (90%, perhaps?) of the problem could be solved simply by adding more data.
For the more complicated cases, grammar analyzers might have to be used. For example, since the 咪 as I mentioned above is almost always used with 囉 when meaning "as a result," we can create a simple script that can recognize the sentence pattern "咪…囉" and make the pronunciation of 咪 "mai6" whenever such a sentence pattern is detected.
The final particles can be a bit tricky too — some final particles have different pronunciations to indicate different moods, and the wrong pronunciation of a final particle can make a sentence sound completely ridiculous. Unfortunately, I can't think of ways to deal with them other than manually proofreading all the sentences (but of course, I'll be glad to help with that :-).
ok I've added (finally found that crappy bug, a stupid mistake from mine in the code) romanization for Cantonese, but now I see that in fact there's seems to not have so many "words" outside single character transcription.
Anyway this afternoon I've checked the web and it seems that the world is missing a "open source" list of cantonese words (there's one free, but as free beer not free speech, which is cantodict, but as the leader of this project doesn't plan to release the data ...)
so maybe we can start making such a list :)
Thanks a LOT, sysko! It must have been such a frustrating experience to find out that bug... :-/
Anyway, I've started to proofread the sentences, and while a lot of them are romanized perfectly, there is still a number of them that contain mistakes. Fortunately, most of these mistakes could be fixed by adding more data, so I'm trying to jot down all the errors I come across and make a list of pronunciations of my own.
And I have a question: how should the format of the list be like, so that it can be conveniently imported into the database?
thanks to you too, I think you've spent more time adding all the Cantonese sentences (in addition to all the Mandarin sentences) than me coding this software :)
for the list, a .txt file with the following format would be perfect
word[tab]jyutping
word2[tab]jyutping2
:)
Okay! I'll start working on the list now. Hopefully I'll finish proofreading all the Cantonese sentences within a month or two.
I’m glad to see it’s done. :)
BTW can you display tones in superscript, like in CantoDict? E.g. not ngo5 but ngo⁵? IMHO it’s more readable.
ok glad to hear that :)
btw I've finished to code it and also integrated it, but I'm facing with a bug (the software starts to take all the CPU ressource) which occurs only when I try to put in the real website Oo, weird. I will try to see why tomorow (in fact the problem does not come from the cantonese itself, because I've adapated the entire code of Sinoparser to be more flexible if we had support for other Chinese language (such as Shanghainese))
Projects using Tatoeba
I'm gathering links here:
http://blog.tatoeba.org/2010/12...g-tatoeba.html
If you know any other, let me know :)