मेनू

Malgré les rappels à l'ordre, voici ncore un nouvel exemple de modification de phrase non autorisée, par un gestionnaire du Corpus.
http://tatoeba.org/fre/sentences/show/557466
J'insiste sur le fait que ces modifications sauvages, sans discussion préalable, d'une phrase appartenant à quelqu'un d'autre, sont ni plus ni moins qu'une dictature et remettent en cause la confiance que tous les contributeurs placent dans Tatoeba.
J'exige que ça cesse immédiatement !
Je n'ai pas plus envie que les autres de devoir constamment contrôler que mes phrases ne sont pas modifiées dans mon dos par des apprentis dictateurs...
On va tuer Tatoeba, de cette manière.

Je suis tout à fait d'accord. C'est surtout un manque de respect et de considération envers l'auteur.
Ça doit cesser immédiatement !

The problem of the sentences of pliiganto is in fact even worse than the problem of orphan sentences.
The indicated name creates the illusion that there is an author in the background, who feels responsible for this sentence, where in fact there isn’t any such person any longer. There is a sentence added two years ago (ore even more) written by a man who ceased to contribute more than a year ago. Since then all attempts to contact him failed. Here comes some background information:
As I was told pliiganto was critizised during his active period, because he added a huge amount of monolingual esperanto-only sentences. Maybe his name pliiganto (meaning; somebody who makes the number raise ) is to be understood programmatic and his primary aim was to push the number of Esperanto sentences higher and higher as fast as possible.
Certainly a similar motivation is a driving force of some contributors in other languages too, and maybe in a certain extent of very many of us. I even believe the spirit of competition plays an important and positive role in the evolution of tatoeba. On the other hand it’s clear that numbers can’t substitute quality. In the end everybody has to ask himself how much effort and attention should be paid to quantity and how much to quality.
But to complete the picture I mention that, several other esperanto contributors expressed concern about the manner of adding huge amounts of sentences in only one language without any translation, especially if this language is esperanto. The idea behind this is that the foremost aim of applying esperanto at tatoeba shouldn’t be to run a publicity show about the greatness of this language. Their opinion is rather that the foremost task of esperanto should be to facilitate translations into as many languages and bind together languages unconnected until now. I can “subscribe” this intention and I’m convinced indeed: working in this direction esperanto -speakers make a modest but considerable contribution to the inherent aims of tatoeba.
By the way: I am grateful to Ludoviko, who recently expressed his concern about thousands of still untranslated sentences and urged to attack this problem.
Many of these sentences, of course, don’t present any problem. You translate them and can be glad to know that there are some (long time!) orphans less, the more if translations into further languages follow soon, as often happens.
Other sentences already at first look give you a clue why they still are untranslated though meanwhile one, two or three years has passed. To translate sentences with errors and/or without a meaning you can understand, is neither attractive nor possible and would make no sense.
I repeat: beneath the orphans are very good sentences (How nice to get them translated at last!), there are sentences who are quite good, yet not quite correct; but what presents a major problem is a third part. There are some sentences without any conceivable meaning at all. Sometimes you find even single words or two or three words who form as its best an fragment but not a sentence. There are other sentences, still confusing and enigmatic, but where you can try to guess what the author probably liked to be the meaning.
The usual procedure is to make a comment, to recommend changes or if necessary to ask for explanation. Only if there has passed a long time without a reaction a Corpus Maintainer is allowed to make necessary changes (s)he or another contributor had proposed. And this happens seldom, because in general the authors improves his sentence in one or another way or delivers an explanation.
In the case of the pliiganto sentences a general agreed exception is practiced. It makes no longer sence to write comments or messages to someone who is apparently inaccessible or prefers not to answer for more than a year while many attempts to contact him failed.

Either you're pretending not to understand the problem, either you just don't, but in both cases, you are PLAIN WRONG.
The problem is the following : the Corpus is NOT YOUR PERSONAL PROPERTY.
>The usual procedure is to make a comment, to recommend changes or if necessary to ask for explanation.
It is not the USUAL procedure. It is THE ONLY PROCEDURE and you constantly disregard it because you deem yourself to be above rules.
There is no excuse for your attitude and I request that you be stripped of your Corpus Maintainer status. Enough is enough ! You're just destroying the trust on Tatoeba and trust is KEY to collaborative projects such as this one.

[I've deleted some post there as it was starting to be irrelevant and outside of the topic itself]

Hello,
I do understand that you considered that this user was "inactiv" but I think for the sake of doing no exception to the rules, we should still stick to the rule, in the future (well I know i'm always saying 'in the future, but i've made really huge progress on the code, but it's all about the 'beside' so nothing yet showable but soon ...) I'll improve the tools for moderator to make it easier to follow this rule AND to not "lose trace" of this sentences.
I'm sure you've understood, and in the future we will all keep applying this rule in any case, though sometimes we may be tempted to do some exception for "good reason" (i.e improving faster the quality of the corpus etc.)

De toutes façons, je pense que la règle n'est pas bonne pour les raisons suivantes :
Dans certains pays comme l'Iran, - pliiganto est Iranien - la Chine ou la Biélorussie, Internet n'est pas libre, et contribuer à des sites comme Tatoeba, potentiellement considéré comme subversif pour certaines phrases, peut-être retenu contre leurs auteurs. Aussi je pense qu'il est normal pour ces auteurs de ne pas laisser leur coordonnées sur le site. En Chine, par exemple, défendre certaines langues locales comme l'Ouïghour ou le Tibétain et en faire la promotion peut contribuer à placer l'auteur en situation de suspact de subversion.
Par conséquent, on ne peut considérer que la non réponse vaut consentement.
Par ailleurs, qui a dit qu'un gestionnaire du Corpus était plus qualifié qu'un contributeur qui ne répond pas ?
Dans la cas de pliiganto, il est vrai qu'il a inséré de nombreuses phrases, en fait un de ses ouvrages en espéranto. Oui, son espéranto semble bizarre à certains occidentaux ou européens, mais l'espéranto n'appartient pas aux occidentaux ou aux européens. C'est une langue mondiale, et je vois de nombreuses corrections par des gestionnaires, concernant l'ordre du sujet, du verbe et du complément ou bien concernant la ponctuation, qui n'ont aucun lieu d'être, car l'espéranto tolère tous les ordres syntaxiques et toutes les ponctuations, sans exception.
Je pense donc que l'altération de phrases sans le consentement explicite de son auteur devrait faire l'objet d'une procédure d'exception beaucoup plus collégiale, qui doit refléter, dans le cas des langues mondiales, comme l'espéranto, l''anglais, le portugais ou le français, l'ensemble des avis des représentants des différentes populations du monde qui emploient ces phrases.
Il ne serait en effet pas normal, par exemple, que si je meurs demain, ma collection d'expressions wallones soit altérée sous prétexte que des gestionnaires francophones ne les connaissent pas et que je ne réponds plus aux courriels de Tatoeba pour pouvoir les défendre.

This makes good sense to me. The evil we should avoid is presenting bad sentences and translations as if they were good ones. A single comment: "This is not a good sentence" (or translation)--in some relevant language--is sufficient warning. Discussion increases the value of the warning (and may even suggest new sentences). Recommendations for deletions or changes ought always to be in order. Intentions to delete or modify sentences not your own should be announced--and not acted on for a good while--to leave time for additional opinions.
(Threatened sentences might be routinely added to a list, allowing oversight by interested parties.)
Other warnings related to "This is a bad sentence" are also appropriate. If you think a sentence does not accurately reflect modern usage or is in some way far-fetched, by all means say so.
If you think a French-flag sentence is not standard French, say so; and if the response is that it's Canadian or Walloon, then we all stand to benefit from that exchange.

"...l'espéranto n'appartient pas aux occidentaux ou aux européens. C'est une langue mondiale, et je vois de nombreuses corrections par des gestionnaires, concernant l'ordre du sujet, du verbe et du complément ou bien concernant la ponctuation, qui n'ont aucun lieu d'être, car l'espéranto tolère tous les ordres syntaxiques et toutes les ponctuations, sans exception."
Simplement superbe. I wish everyone thought like you.

"In the case of the pliiganto sentences a general agreed exception is practiced. It makes no longer sence to write comments or messages to someone who is apparently inaccessible or prefers not to answer for more than a year while many attempts to contact him failed."
I understand what you're saying, but I think that it's still important to write a comment. Other Esperanto users might read that comment and disagree with your correction. By writing a comment, you're making your change public. We can scroll through comments, but not through the list of modified sentences. So if you don't write a comment, your correction is essentially invisible to other users.

Thank you for your advice. Since yesterday I'm proceeding in this way.

Et voici d'autres, découverts par Shishir :
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentence...57278#comments
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentence...56850#comments
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentence...39056#comments
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentence...41807#comments

On sait tous que Tatorique, l'auteur de ces phrases, n'est plus ici, mais ce qui me dérange est qu'on parle de l'Espagnol de l'Espagne et Marcelo n'a pas laissé de commentaires dans ces phrases...
Moi, j'admets que j'ai changé immédiatement une ou deux phrases de Tatorique, Pharamp ou de Boracasli, mais juste après avoir laissé un commentaire où j'indiquais le changement fait pour savoir si quelqu'un avait quelque problème avec ce changement pour pouvoir le changer à l'originel si c'était nécessaire (et toujours c'étaient des changements d'orthographie, des choses qui étaient incorrectes selon l’académie de la langue espagnole).
Mais si vous me dites que je dois attendre deux semaines, peu importe si c'est un membre inactif ou pas, je le ferai.

Bon je vais embaucher des gardes du corps pour mes phrases...Bonjour l'atmosphère !

Je crois que c'est un bon exemple qui montre pourquoi on devrait toujours commenter avant de modifier une phrase.
I'm sure that Alexander and Marcelo both meant well, but sometimes we make mistakes when correcting sentences and so it's important to make the process as transparent as possible. I think that we have to remember that sentences are owned by the owner of the sentence and not by the CMs. It doesn't take much time to just write a quick comment when correcting a sentence. Changing a sentence without writing a comment means that the user will get no notification at all.
I think that we should also wait two weeks before making the correction. It helps contributors learn to fix their own mistakes and gives them time to answer if they don't agree.
In some special cases, it might be OK not to wait for two weeks if the user is inactive. But I think that we need to always write a comment. The only exception might be for users like Boracasli who submit hundreds of incorrect sentences.

SacredCeltic's repeated complaints are protests against tyranny. When you who have the power to alter and delete sentences not your own do so with no basis but your own judgment--no matter what notification you give or how long you wait--you act as tyrants.
Of course you intend to serve the community. Who doubts it? But who decides whether your actions serve the community? If the answer is you alone, then you are a tyrant, however benign.
Another model is possible. You need not execute the entire judicial function alone. You need not serve your own judgment. You can instead choose to take no privileged action unless support for that action has been expressed by others (and if a vigilante clique develops, you can choose to require support from outside the clique).
Say what you think should be done. Try to drum up support for it. Wait for support to appear. What's the hurry? Every day, bad sentences slip further into the background of the ever growing corpus of good sentences. Besides, when you add a comment to a sentence ("Dreck here"), you achieve most of what is achieved by deletion; and if you add a same-language translation, you achieve most of what is achieved by alteration. If final action is delayed, even long delayed, small harm results.