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sharptoothed sharptoothed yesterday September 19, 2021 at 4:33:34 PM UTC link Permalink

** Stats & Graphs **

Tatoeba Stats, Graphs & Charts have been updated:
https://tatoeba.j-langtools.com/allstats/

Ricardo14 Ricardo14 yesterday September 19, 2021 at 3:33:24 PM UTC link Permalink

I'd like some help, please.

How can I find sentences in Portuguese with the prepositions "em", "no", "na", "nos", "nas", "de", "do", "da", "dos", and "das"? Thank you so much.

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ddnktr ddnktr yesterday September 19, 2021 at 3:56:04 PM UTC link Permalink

Do you mean by using the search function on Tatoeba? One way to do that is by putting each entry in parentheses with this symbol between each: |

So it would look like this:
("em"|"no"|"na"|"nos"|"nas"|"de"|"do"|"da"|"dos"|"das")

This link should probably work too:
https://tatoeba.org/en/sentence...rand_seed=5phM

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Ricardo14 Ricardo14 yesterday September 19, 2021 at 3:58:37 PM UTC link Permalink

Thank you so really much!!! // Grazie millie!!!

lbdx lbdx 2 days ago September 18, 2021 at 4:41:54 PM UTC link Permalink

** Tatominer **

Tatominer now supports 50 translation languages instead of 20!

Thanks to Johannes_S, AlanF_US, DaoSeng, carlosalberto, Seael, aldar, ddnktr, GrizaLeono, Pfirsichbaeumchen, Wezel, saverius, Polgar1, soliloquist, CK, Shishir, Esperantostern, Rovo, AmarMecheri, danepo and VOsakosa for their 71 contributions that helped move the project forward this week.

Check out the most searched words that lack sentences or translations in your language at https://tatominer.netlify.app.

sundown sundown 13 days ago September 6, 2021 at 10:02:46 PM UTC link Permalink

Are there any plans to allow more than one voice to be uploaded to a sentence? It's puzzling that this feature hasn't been implemented. Imagine what Tatoeba would be like if each sentence could have only one translation per language added to it. That is the situation at the moment with audio (though in fact there's more to say about it than that).

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CK CK 13 days ago September 7, 2021 at 1:18:13 AM UTC link Permalink

See...

https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/183
allow multiple audio files per sentence (issue opened Apr 8, 2014)

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sundown sundown 12 days ago September 7, 2021 at 9:45:02 PM UTC link Permalink

Thanks for the link, which I've read. The impression I get from it is that nothing, or almost nothing, has been done towards introducing the feature. Does anyone know if that's correct? Also, am I right in thinking that only one user is able to upload, edit or remove audio?

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TRANG TRANG 12 days ago September 8, 2021 at 12:28:01 PM UTC link Permalink

> The impression I get from it is that nothing, or almost nothing, has been
> done towards introducing the feature. Does anyone know if that's correct?

That's correct, in the sense that no one started to code something for this.

> Also, am I right in thinking that only one user is able to upload, edit
> or remove audio?

No, there's more than one user who can upload, edit or remove audio. But only one user (CK) is taking care of doing it.

gillux gillux 9 days ago September 11, 2021 at 1:15:14 AM UTC link Permalink

Well, some work has been done towards introducing that feature. When the issue was opened, in 2014, there were absolutely no information regarding audio recording on Tatoeba except "there is an audio for that sentence" (a boolean information for each sentence). Later on, in 2016, I worked on indicating contributors of audio: https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/pull/1378 (audio metadata for each sentence). Technically speaking this paved the way for multiple recordings per sentence, although nobody worked on that specifically afterwards. I understand however that from a user’s perspective it feels like very little changed.

Note that anyone is welcome to contribute code. If you have programming skills, or if you know somebody who does and can convince this person to help, more features could be added.

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sundown sundown 8 days ago September 11, 2021 at 9:14:42 PM UTC link Permalink

Thanks for replying, TRANG, and thanks gillux for that additional information. I realised that I might have missed any work done, which is why I asked.

I'm not a programmer, unfortunately. Still, I'd like to gauge how much interest there is in having the ability to have multiple voices per sentence, and whether people feel that the choice and diversity it would allow is important.

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jimkillock jimkillock 8 days ago September 12, 2021 at 11:13:30 AM UTC link Permalink

The big thing for me is the licencing. Most of the audio content is not open so cannot be reused on other projects. That is rather disappointing, and something that could be changed, or at least discouraged?

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TRANG TRANG 7 days ago September 12, 2021 at 8:45:55 PM UTC link Permalink

I'm wondering how you concluded that the audio content is not open. The majority of the audio content is under some Creative Commons license, so perhaps we are not communicating this properly.

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jimkillock jimkillock 7 days ago, edited 7 days ago September 12, 2021 at 8:49:37 PM UTC, edited September 12, 2021 at 8:49:43 PM UTC link Permalink

Perhaps it is just the audio I have searched for. All the Latin audio I have found is closed, for instance: https://tatoeba.org/en/sentences/show/912329

Presumably this was user choice. I haven't look at the signposting and options tho as I haven't tried adding any.

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gillux gillux 6 days ago September 14, 2021 at 1:21:45 AM UTC link Permalink

I confirm it is just the audio you have searched for.
It could be a user choice, or it could also be a lack of choice.
Audio recordings contributed by users who did not select a license default to "No license for offsite use".

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Objectivesea Objectivesea 6 days ago, edited 6 days ago September 14, 2021 at 3:21:15 AM UTC, edited September 14, 2021 at 3:33:42 AM UTC link Permalink

When I contributed a few audio recording files a few years back, CK very helpfully sent me some directions for most effectively using the free Audacity recording software, which can be downloaded in your choice of Linux, Macintosh and Windows versions. He also indicated that it would be best to make a mention on one's Tatoeba user page that all of her/his recordings are CC-released.

Here is a helpful page about contributing audio files to Tatoeba:
https://en.wiki.tatoeba.org/art...tribute-audio2

This includes the helpful suggestion that you initially record only a few sentences so that Tatoeba admins can confirm the quality is sufficiently good.

Some specific information for using Audacity:
http://www.manythings.org/tatoeba/audacity.html

jimkillock jimkillock 6 days ago September 14, 2021 at 7:50:07 PM UTC link Permalink

That could be something to think about; defaulting the licence to something open?

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gillux gillux 5 days ago September 14, 2021 at 11:29:17 PM UTC link Permalink

You are right. We chose to default the license to "no offsite use" at the time we were gathering information about past audio contributions. In the early days of the project, audio used to contributed without thinking about the licenses and without even properly attributing contributors. Around 2016, we worked on adding audio metadata and proper attribution. We contacted past audio contributors and searched through the history of the project. For some audio recordings though we weren’t able to find attribution (or the contributor just didn’t choose a license), that’s why the juridically safe default "no offsite use" was set. However, later on, on the 20th of January 2019, we introduced new Terms of Use (see the link in the footer) that explicitly default audio contributions to CC-BY. Consequently, we should also update the default audio license for all users who accepted these latest terms. @TRANG Can you confirm?

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TRANG TRANG 3 days ago September 17, 2021 at 4:22:23 PM UTC link Permalink

What I can confirm is that we can have CC BY as the default audio_license value for new registered users. I created a ticket in that regard: https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/2848

But for those who currently have their audio license set to "No license for offsite use", even if they agreed with the new Terms of Use, we need to contact them to change the license.

The Terms of Use do not say that contributors must use a Creative Commons license and we cannot know for sure if they have "No license for offsite use" because they just didn't realize it was set with this value, or if they actually didn't want their audio to be under a Creative Commons license.

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CK CK 2 days ago, edited 2 days ago September 18, 2021 at 1:19:40 AM UTC, edited September 18, 2021 at 1:30:41 AM UTC link Permalink

I send the following message to all new audio contributors and have also sent it to a number of the older contributors. I think I have actually sent this message to all audio contributors who had not yet chosen a license, but there is a chance that I missed a couple.



Perhaps you would consider offering your audio files for offsite use, too, with a Creative Commons License.

https://en.wiki.tatoeba.org/art...-audio-license

There is no hurry, so you can take your time and think about it.
Some members don't choose a license.

TRANG TRANG 12 days ago September 8, 2021 at 1:40:28 PM UTC link Permalink

** Tatominer **

I'm planning to add links to Tatominer on the "Add sentences" and "Translate sentences" pages of Tatoeba.

You can test the current implementation on the dev website:
- https://dev.tatoeba.org/en/sentences/add
- https://dev.tatoeba.org/en/acti...late_sentences

Please let me know if the workflow between Tatoeba and Tatominer is intuitive enough or if we should adjust things a bit.

Thank you!

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DJ_Saidez DJ_Saidez 12 days ago, edited 12 days ago September 8, 2021 at 2:20:06 PM UTC, edited September 8, 2021 at 2:21:56 PM UTC link Permalink

I like the layout, it's just missing translations
I'll work on a Spanish one

Edit: Don't see them on Transifex

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TRANG TRANG 11 days ago September 9, 2021 at 1:56:05 PM UTC link Permalink

The new strings have not been uploaded to Transifex yet, since they could still change anytime.

AlanF_US AlanF_US 11 days ago September 9, 2021 at 1:42:47 AM UTC link Permalink

Currently, the lists on Tatominer are only updated once a week. Given that Tatominer and Tatoeba are now going to be more tightly integrated, is there a plan to have the list of words updated more frequently?

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CK CK 11 days ago September 9, 2021 at 2:00:57 AM UTC link Permalink

Are these the most-searched words from just the preceding week, or for all time?

Or, is Tatominer based on the most-searched words from some time in the past and only the translation numbers are updated every week?

lbdx lbdx 11 days ago September 9, 2021 at 7:49:46 AM UTC link Permalink

For now, I run the Tatominer script every week on my laptop. The next step will be to run the script automatically in the cloud and release the results as data files that can be fetched by tatoeba.org.

Then I would like to process the corpus with the same tool as Tatoeba (Manticore) instead of my home-made indexer.

Finally, Tatominer is still analyzing the same yearly search log (https://downloads.tatoeba.org/s...eries.csv.bz2) which dates back to last year. It would be nice to update this one from time to time.

Once all these steps are done, I think we will be able to consider the real-time integration of Tatominer if the community wishes it.

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TRANG TRANG 11 days ago September 9, 2021 at 2:37:17 PM UTC link Permalink

Do you happen to have the command line has been used to convert the manticore search logs into this queries.csv file?

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lbdx lbdx 11 days ago, edited 11 days ago September 9, 2021 at 3:09:36 PM UTC, edited September 9, 2021 at 3:10:46 PM UTC link Permalink

No, sorry. It was gillux who generated this file at the time: https://tatoeba.org/en/wall/sho...#message_34714

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gillux gillux 9 days ago September 11, 2021 at 1:55:19 PM UTC link Permalink

I updated the queries.csv file today. You can download the same file again to get the updated version.

By the way, if you'd like I can also include the number of results each query returned at the time it was run.

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CK CK 6 days ago, edited 6 days ago September 13, 2021 at 11:28:56 PM UTC, edited September 13, 2021 at 11:49:04 PM UTC link Permalink

When counting the number of queries, I suppose that the same query appearing consecutively in the file should only be counted once, since it is very, very likely the same person each time.

Here is an excerpt from the file.

8 May 2019,epo,konsisti|konsistas|konsistis|konsistos|konsistus|konsistant*|konsistat*|konsistint*|konsistit*|konsistont*|konsistot*
8 May 2019,epo,konsisti|konsistas|konsistis|konsistos|konsistus|konsistant*|konsistat*|konsistint*|konsistit*|konsistont*|konsistot*
8 May 2019,epo,konsisto|konsiston|konsistoj|konsistojn
8 May 2019,epo,konsisto|konsiston|konsistoj|konsistojn
8 May 2019,epo,konsista|konsistan|konsistaj|konsistajn
8 May 2019,epo,konsista|konsistan|konsistaj|konsistajn
8 May 2019,epo,konsistaĵo|konsistaĵon|konsistaĵoj|konsistaĵojn
8 May 2019,epo,konsistaĵo|konsistaĵon|konsistaĵoj|konsistaĵojn
8 May 2019,epo,konsistigi|konsistigas|konsistigis|konsistigos|konsistigus|konsistigant*|konsistigat*|konsistigint*|konsistigit*|konsistigont*|konsistigot*
8 May 2019,epo,konsistigi|konsistigas|konsistigis|konsistigos|konsistigus|konsistigant*|konsistigat*|konsistigint*|konsistigit*|konsistigont*|konsistigot*
8 May 2019,eng,we flew back to our house
8 May 2019,eng,we flew back to our house

I did a quick count of consecutive duplicate lines in the file. Here are the top 20 with the counts.

21 Jan 2020,eng,workers of the world unite (215)
20 May 2019,eng,"baked potato" (196)
28 May 2019,eng,"in progress" (143)
21 Jan 2020,eng,workers of the world unite (135)
28 May 2019,eng,"in progress" (114)
21 Jan 2020,eng,workers of the world unite (94)
6 May 2020,deu,drauf (78)
28 Aug 2020,und,skDB (77)
11 Aug 2020,und,akBk (74)
1 Feb 2020,eng,door (74)
20 May 2019,eng,"baked potato" (72)
7 Oct 2019,deu,Geschäftsführer (68)
23 Feb 2020,und,Verwirrung (64)
28 Aug 2020,und,skDB (62)
23 Feb 2020,und,Verwirrung (62)
18 Feb 2020,eng,be (60)
6 Oct 2019,epo,Geschäftsführer (52)
28 Aug 2019,eng,above (50)
14 May 2019,ber,aselmad|uselmad (50)
28 May 2019,eng,"in progress" (48)

Note a few items appear on this top 20 list a number of times, since there were searches not matching those items that interrupted the consecutive run.

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gillux gillux 6 days ago September 13, 2021 at 11:30:23 PM UTC link Permalink

Note that for technical reasons each query is reported twice, so you want to divide numbers by two.

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CK CK 6 days ago September 13, 2021 at 11:51:03 PM UTC link Permalink

That doesn't always seem to be the case.

These are the last few lines of the file.

11 Sep 2021,fra,la joie
11 Sep 2021,spa,chocolate
11 Sep 2021,jpn,„Åì„Åæ„ÇÅ
11 Sep 2021,und,在Tatoeba,你必须总是倾听
11 Sep 2021,eng,suffer
11 Sep 2021,eng,to presage
11 Sep 2021,cmn,校花
11 Sep 2021,jpn,怪力
11 Sep 2021,fra,clôture
11 Sep 2021,spa,Disculpe
11 Sep 2021,eng,sane
11 Sep 2021,eng,Hang
11 Sep 2021,fra,y'a quoi
11 Sep 2021,und,听得十分厌烦
11 Sep 2021,und,but

CK CK 6 days ago September 13, 2021 at 11:56:52 PM UTC link Permalink

There are a number of lines that look similar to these.

[Sun Apr 7 15:05:16.106 2019] 0.002 sec 0.002 sec [ext2/3/ext 0 (0,10)] [deu_main_index,deu_delta_index] verb¸rgen

[Sun Feb 23 19:48:28.190 2020] 0.001 sec 0.001 sec [ext2/3/ext 0 (0,10)] [deu_main_index,deu_delta_index] Erˆffnung

Most say "deu_main_index", but there are also "cmn_main_index" and "bre_main_index".

What do these mean?

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gillux gillux 6 days ago September 14, 2021 at 1:18:57 AM UTC link Permalink

These were erroneous lines. I fixed the problem. Thanks!

CK CK 6 days ago September 14, 2021 at 12:13:30 AM UTC link Permalink

For those who might be interested, I counted the queries.

Here are the top 10. The first number on each line is the count.

891 und,передай мне пожалуйста масло
853 deu,Zug
835 eng,spelling
731 eng,flour
728 eng,Hi
701 eng,Bye
691 jpn,の
679 ita,Arrivederci
678 fra,Au revoir
677 eng,hello

If you want to see them all, you can download this file.

https://tatoeba.ueuo.com/temp/queries_counted.zip (24MB)

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CK CK 6 days ago September 14, 2021 at 1:25:28 AM UTC link Permalink

Searching for English Sentences - Based on the most frequent searches

http://tatoeba.ueuo.com/most-searched-eng.html

I used the queries.csv.bz2 file to create this, just for fun.

Selena777 Selena777 6 days ago September 14, 2021 at 6:38:40 PM UTC link Permalink

Which language is "und"? Actually, the line is in Russian. It's a whole sentence, but it lacks capitalization and has wrong punctuation.

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lbdx lbdx 6 days ago September 14, 2021 at 8:04:02 PM UTC link Permalink

"und' is a special ISO 639-3 code for "undetermined" language.

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Selena777 Selena777 5 days ago September 15, 2021 at 5:29:54 PM UTC link Permalink

I see. Then, the code should be changed to "rus".

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AlanF_US AlanF_US 5 days ago September 15, 2021 at 5:51:31 PM UTC link Permalink

These are searches. Presumably "und" means that the user didn't specify a "From" language.

gillux gillux 9 days ago September 11, 2021 at 2:02:44 PM UTC link Permalink

I lost the command line I used at that time. I did it again today and I uploaded the command to the repository. This is just a quick and dirty sed one-liner. We could possibly have Manticore produce the logs directly in a format usable by Tatominer, that would make things easier.

By the way, this new command does not produce records with empty queries, unlike before.

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lbdx lbdx 9 days ago September 11, 2021 at 3:14:29 PM UTC link Permalink

Thank you for your quick response.This format suits Tatominer well. I will be able to improve the relevance of the results with the help of this additional data.

Would you consider automatically scheduling this task monthly or even annually?

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gillux gillux 6 days ago September 13, 2021 at 11:11:50 PM UTC link Permalink

Yes, it would be better to automatically schedule this task. Please open an issue on Github so that we don’t forget to do it.

sabretou sabretou 6 days ago September 14, 2021 at 4:52:44 AM UTC link Permalink

I think it's worth mentioning in the string that Tatominer only supports some languages on Tatoeba, not all.

I haven't used or delved into Tatominer much, so pardon me if I'm wrong!

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lbdx lbdx 6 days ago September 14, 2021 at 6:23:59 AM UTC link Permalink

You are right, Tatominer only supports the top 20 most searched languages on Tatoeba so far.

But I think I will be able to support at least 150 source languages over time. Following the request of a Berber contributor, I also plan to add new target languages (including Marathi) very soon.

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sabretou sabretou 6 days ago September 14, 2021 at 6:32:20 AM UTC link Permalink

Okay! Thank you!

jimkillock jimkillock 9 days ago, edited 7 days ago September 11, 2021 at 3:46:18 PM UTC, edited September 13, 2021 at 7:31:06 AM UTC link Permalink

** Collaborative project idea**

Hi all, I have an idea for a collaborative project with Wikiversity, if you are interested.

The idea is to produce a set of stories and dialogues in various languages, featuring sentences graded at levels based on the European Framework, ie A1, A2, B1 in particular.

Because sentence production is your strength, I thought we could collaborate to write stories with sentences that could be easily translated here. These could preferably be tagged, for ease of finding them.

I've put up a demonstration page on Wikiversity to show the way the navigation would work (it could be prettier, but content must come first I think).

https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Easy_Readers

Tatoeba lists:

https://tatoeba.org/en/sentence...&direction=asc At the Cinema

https://tatoeba.org/en/sentence...&direction=asc A day at school

https://tatoeba.org/en/sentence...&direction=asc At the Baker's

Why not write your own stories too?

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jimkillock jimkillock 8 days ago September 12, 2021 at 1:34:29 AM UTC link Permalink

I've posted a demonstration story here: https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki...ders/A1-Cinema and also posted the sentence set to Tatoeba so you can see what I mean!

If someone translates the sentence set, then we can post the whole dialogue to Wikiversity in that language.

This could be a great way to develop dialogues and Tatoeba content :)

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Shishir Shishir 8 days ago September 12, 2021 at 8:18:49 AM UTC link Permalink

I don't know if this is possible because of the copyright licences: Wikiversity has a CC BY-SA 3.0 licence, while Tatoeba has CC BY 2.0 or CC0 licence. Maybe someone who knows more than I do about this kind of stuff could tell us.

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jimkillock jimkillock 8 days ago September 12, 2021 at 8:20:37 AM UTC link Permalink

Those licences are designed to be compatible (cc-by-sa); CC-By and CC-0 permit usage on cc-by-sa platforms. The crucial thing is attribution, which to be fair is a bit difficult when adding to Tatoeba, but easy when adding to WM projects.

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Shishir Shishir 8 days ago September 12, 2021 at 8:34:21 AM UTC link Permalink

I think it's a bit more complicated than that because Tatoeba sentences are not only used in Tatoeba and then in Wikiverse, but in lots of other projects that will just make a general attribution to Tatoeba and that's it... If some sentences in Tatoeba are copyrighted under the CC BY SA 3 but in Tatoeba they appear as CC BY 2 and in other websites they're also treated as CC BY 2 where Tatoeba is the original author I don't know how well we'll comply with Wikiverse's copyright.

Since we are not allowed to add content from Wikipedia because of this, I wonder if and why texts from Wikiverse would be any different. But as I said I'm no expert, I would just like this to be cleared up before these sentences get lots of translations.

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jimkillock jimkillock 8 days ago, edited 8 days ago September 12, 2021 at 8:39:27 AM UTC, edited September 12, 2021 at 8:42:45 AM UTC link Permalink

The reason you can't use Wikiverse content on Tatoeba is more than likely because Tatoeba does not have a means to explain “attribution” – that is, you cannot say where the sentence is from. Not including attribution information breaks the licence for any of these and means you infringe copyright.

However, when a Tatoeba sentence is imported into Wikimedia projects, the accreditation and attribution can be preserved by means of a simple link in the edit information, meaning that the licence is abided by. This can get fiddly but can be done. For these stories it is not too bad, and with a bit of extra work like tagging, it could be possible to find the content on Tatoeba easily too.

CC licences are designed to be compatible with each other over time, or we would be in a terrible mess (the one you are speculating might exist!) More on how that works can be found here, which explains how newer CC licences are compatible with older ones: https://creativecommons.org/sha...ible-licenses/

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Shishir Shishir 8 days ago September 12, 2021 at 8:43:39 AM UTC link Permalink

well that's the thing, the sentences you added were orginally in Wikiverse, and from there they were added here, so they have that CC BY SA 3 licence. If it was the other way and they were originally in Tatoeba there would be no problem.

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jimkillock jimkillock 8 days ago, edited 8 days ago September 12, 2021 at 8:50:28 AM UTC, edited September 12, 2021 at 8:55:39 AM UTC link Permalink

OK, but I wrote them and I can do what I like with them :)

I am hoping that people on Tatoeba write the translations, and we put them on Wikiversity. Even if the licence issues are adjusted so tatoeba offers cc-by-sa 3.0, the authors need to write the sentences themslves when posting at Tatoeba, because Tatoeba does not offer an attribution field at submisison.

You are right that the original story author will need to write and post to both, which is a bit awkward. After all I don't want to write all of the stories, that would be a bit boring!

Thanuir Thanuir 7 days ago September 13, 2021 at 4:40:01 PM UTC link Permalink

The author can have the same work under different licenses in different places. This can also be done with explicit author permission.

jimkillock jimkillock 8 days ago September 12, 2021 at 11:04:22 AM UTC link Permalink

Here is a first one done! Translated by Seael – who noticed it was a dialogue, of course :) https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki...s/A1-Cinema/es

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Seael Seael 8 days ago, edited 8 days ago September 12, 2021 at 11:19:41 AM UTC, edited September 12, 2021 at 11:27:51 AM UTC link Permalink

Yes. I gave it a go. :)

I've just left links to the whole lot in the comment section of the title in Spanish: #10291054

Actually, leaving indexes like that in the comment sections of the different parts of the dialogue can be helpful. If you hover the cursor over every link, you can read the content of each sentence without having to get to the page itself.

I also left a few comments on some of the translations in case they help. Kind regards.

PS: Even though I like pinnipeds and olden message paraphernalia, it's Seael, not Seal! :D

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Yorwba Yorwba 8 days ago September 12, 2021 at 11:56:11 AM UTC link Permalink

Regarding indices, I think that would be a good use case for public lists, which are automatically linked on the page of each sentence that's part of the list, so you don't need to post a whole bunch of comments to help people find the other sentences.

For demonstration purposes, I made one for the English sentences of the A1-Cinema story: https://tatoeba.org/zh-cn/sente...&direction=asc It's a bit of a problem that lists are displayed in inverse chronological order by default, so I had to explicitly specify a different sort order for the link.

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jimkillock jimkillock 8 days ago, edited 8 days ago September 12, 2021 at 1:09:28 PM UTC, edited September 12, 2021 at 2:01:42 PM UTC link Permalink

Thank you very much, again very useful! I will link to that from the Wikiversity page

Here is another dialogue: https://tatoeba.org/en/sentence...&direction=asc

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jimkillock jimkillock 7 days ago September 13, 2021 at 7:30:29 AM UTC link Permalink

Here are all three dialogues now

https://tatoeba.org/en/sentence...&direction=asc At the Cinema

https://tatoeba.org/en/sentence...&direction=asc A day at school

https://tatoeba.org/en/sentence...&direction=asc At the Baker's

I would love it if people wrote some themselves as well!

Selena777 Selena777 7 days ago September 13, 2021 at 5:07:04 PM UTC link Permalink

Hi, I can't translate "drink at the back". It's certanly not A1 level. Is it an idiom? Please tell me its meaning.

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jimkillock jimkillock 7 days ago, edited 7 days ago September 13, 2021 at 5:27:30 PM UTC, edited September 13, 2021 at 5:27:50 PM UTC link Permalink

Hi Selena, thank you for doing this. I mean, "to drink" (to have a drink), "at the back", meaning "at the back of the cinema". It is only idiomatic in that people do naughty things at the back of cinemas where they cannot be seen.

I will change the levels on advice of course.

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Selena777 Selena777 7 days ago September 13, 2021 at 6:40:32 PM UTC link Permalink

Thanks for the answer, do you mean "the back row of seats in the cinema"? Unfortunately, I can't give an advice about proper level of the dialog, cause I'm not a language teacher nor an expert in this field.

I would like to participate in this project. I suppose your English sentences use simple A-level words and grammar, so there is a question: if you would like their translations be also A-level without using colloquial words? In Russian the issue also touches the order of words, unlike English.

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jimkillock jimkillock 7 days ago, edited 7 days ago September 13, 2021 at 6:44:15 PM UTC, edited September 13, 2021 at 6:44:55 PM UTC link Permalink

yes, the back row, or the back rows. For the dialogues, I tried to use simple constructions and everyday language, and to stick rigidly to the present tense, avoiding anything that uses future, past or subjunctive-like tenses. However the English is quite colloquial or conversational in each. The idea being that they are reasonably natural and not too forced despite being basic.

jimkillock jimkillock 8 days ago, edited 8 days ago September 12, 2021 at 5:35:16 PM UTC, edited September 12, 2021 at 5:36:02 PM UTC link Permalink

Hi there,

With the story project I've got going, I have hit a couple of problems which are not fatal but make life a bit difficult in relation to the short story project I mentioned here so I though I would ask if there is any chance of resolving them in the medium term?

(1) Migrating to CC-By-SA 3.0 or 4.0 - this is technically possible for you so why not do it? It would allow more content to be cross posted here; and

(2) There is no way to use a more sophisticated attribution, such as a link back to a Wikimedia credits page, to allow content appropriately licenced to be posted here

On point (2) I can see this could be a right pain if every user was given this ability - you would have a much bigger copyright policing issue to deal with - but couldn't you consider for certain users, with prior agreement for a particular use case?

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TRANG TRANG 7 days ago September 12, 2021 at 8:34:43 PM UTC link Permalink

Hi jimkillock,

(1) We can't really "migrate" in the sense of just getting rid of CC BY and CC0 and have everything under CC BY SA. What we would have to do is introduce CC BY SA as a new available license, and allow people to choose which license they want to contribute in.
While it is technically possible, it is not a simple task and Tatoeba is a volunteer-run project, not an organization with a dedicated team of developers, hence why it will be difficult to do it.

(2) There are ways to provide more sophisticated attribution, it's just not very straightforward.
- Adding a comment on the sentence would be one way to do it.
- Another way would be to create a public list put the attribution in the title of the list.
- One more way would be to create a special account for all sentences coming from a certain source and use the profile description.

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jimkillock jimkillock 7 days ago, edited 7 days ago September 12, 2021 at 8:41:58 PM UTC, edited September 12, 2021 at 8:42:27 PM UTC link Permalink

Hi there,

(1) No that is not quite right. If you have a cc-by-sa-20.0 grant, this is forward compatible to cc-by-sa-3.0 or beyond, so you can simply reassign it to either.

See https://creativecommons.org/sha...ble-licenses/:

"Version 2.0 and 2.5

Your contributions to adaptations of BY-SA 2.0 or 2.5 materials may only be licensed under:

The license used for the original work, or a later version of that BY-SA license."

However, the licenses are *not backwards compatible* and that is causing the conflict. I cannot move content from Wikipedia to here, as a cc-by-sa 3.0 licence cannot be changed to 2.0

On (2) For sure, but it would be nice to do this in a way that could structure into data and not give misleading information. (I am not the author of the sentence, but the data probably says I am).

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TRANG TRANG 7 days ago September 12, 2021 at 9:13:17 PM UTC link Permalink

(1) The issue is not about compatibility between the licenses. It's is that we have contributors who want to be able to contribute specifically with CC BY, and some want to be able to contribute specifically with CC0.
That's why we can't get rid of them. Well, technically we can, but that would not be a nice thing to do...

(2) By default, you would be indeed considered author of the sentence you add if there's no indication otherwise in comments/tags/lists/profile. And I agree, it's far from perfect. We've already identified that it can be misleading ( cf. https://tatoeba.org/en/wall/sho...#message_37243 ). But it's not something that we can easily fix in the short/medium term though, again, because of our lack of resources.

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jimkillock jimkillock 7 days ago, edited 7 days ago September 12, 2021 at 9:18:23 PM UTC, edited September 12, 2021 at 9:21:06 PM UTC link Permalink

Hi Trang,

Sorry I was not clear on (1). I don't care about what licenses are here or chosen, especially not cc-by and cc-0, they are permissive and that is all good.

The issue is with using cc-by-sa 2.0, and not moving to cc-by-sa-3.0 or 4.0

Basically you should move everything on cc-by-sa-2.0 to cc-by-sa-3.0 at this stage. This should be a simple "find everything using cc-by-sa-2.0 and change it to cc-by-sa-3.0" Nobody will care as it has the same properties. And you are allowed to move forward with cc licences, but not backwards.

*As a result* it means that if I have a Wikipedia sentence, with a 3.0 licence, I can then move it here, only if you are allowing me to use a 3.0 licence. While you stick with 2.0, i cannot do this under the terms of the Wikipedia 3.0 licence.

Thanks for your answer on (2)

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TRANG TRANG 7 days ago September 12, 2021 at 9:43:32 PM UTC link Permalink

Ah, I read too fast and didn't notice you were talking about *ShareAlike* 2.0.

Well, to my knowledge we don't have anything under ShareAlike 2.0 so there's nothing we can move from cc-by-sa-2.0 to cc-by-sa-3.0 :)

We are using CC BY, without the SA: https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.0/fr/

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jimkillock jimkillock 7 days ago, edited 7 days ago September 12, 2021 at 9:48:11 PM UTC, edited September 12, 2021 at 9:48:30 PM UTC link Permalink

Ah blimey I am blind. You are quite. So the problem still exists - WM content is incompatible with yours, but yours can move to WM. But there is little that can be done about that.

fjay69 fjay69 15 days ago September 5, 2021 at 9:17:41 AM UTC link Permalink

Some english sentences contain zero width space (https://unicode-table.com/en/200B/). For example, #8189817, #6687278. This can cause a problem to programs, who work with Tatoeba database exports. Can we fix this somehow?

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AlanF_US AlanF_US 15 days ago September 5, 2021 at 5:20:32 PM UTC link Permalink

Can you please give us an idea of how many such sentences there are? Also, could you leave comments on at least a few of the sentences and indicate where such spaces are?

My initial reaction is that a zero-width space is not actually wrong, so it's really up to the programs to do the cleaning. But we already do some automatic cleaning regarding spaces (trimming leading and trailing spaces, converting sequences of multiple spaces into single spaces), so it's possible that we could do this as well.

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fjay69 fjay69 15 days ago September 5, 2021 at 5:48:34 PM UTC link Permalink

I've opened eng_sentences.tsv in Notepad++ and looked for \u200B (search mode: extended). There are 56 matches. Some sentences contain more than one zero-width space.

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AlanF_US AlanF_US 15 days ago September 5, 2021 at 7:15:30 PM UTC link Permalink

It looks like most of those sentences do contain more than one such space. Editing 30-40 sentences is something I can do manually. But I'm not eager to do this for sentences other than English, in part because some languages may want to treat zero-width spaces differently. I'm not sure about that, though, so it will be interesting to see what others say.

Note that one way to make the characters visible in Notepad++ is to choose Plugins->MIME Tools->Quoted-printable Encode.

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CK CK 14 days ago, edited 14 days ago September 5, 2021 at 11:49:13 PM UTC, edited September 5, 2021 at 11:50:18 PM UTC link Permalink

Here are the English sentences with \x{200B}.
I marked them with " * ".
Note that some of them have 2 consecutive ones.
I already changed 3 of my own.


[#5699178] Stop crying and get your act together * . (\N)

[#3120690] Without the idea of * * God there is no clever answer to the question about the reason for the existence of the universe. (\N)

[#6146303] * I haven't gone to the doctor in over ten years. (al_ex_an_der)

[#1699577] So let's be friends and enjoy our very cooperative community as well as the richness and diversity of languages * * and their cultures! (al_ex_an_der)

[#1866845] The 26th of September is the European Day of Languages. The Council of Europe wants to draw attention to the multilingual heritage of Europe, to foster the evolution of multilingualism in society and to encourage citizens to learn languages * * . Tatoeba, as an easy-to-use learning tool and an active community, promotes the study and appreciation of languages in a very practical way. (al_ex_an_der)

[#3300092] The form of language * * changes over time. (AlanF_US)

[#9767038] It was Pope Gelasius I who had the idea of * * establishing Valentine's Day, the feast of lovers (every February 14). (AmarMecheri)

[#7034894] Berber is a family of languages * * spoken in North Africa. (Amazigh_Bedar)

[#7034893] Tamazight is a family of languages * * spoken in North Africa. (Amazigh_Bedar)

[#1442465] Seven thousand languages are spoken all over the world, * * and taken together, they comprise the largest collection of human knowledge that has ever existed. (Balamax)

[#8189817] Berber as a family contains several languages * * including: Kabyle, Shawi, Mozabit, Rifain, Zennati, Tergi and Chleuh. (belkacem77)

[#8354940] I am sad that many languages * * will disappear. (belkacem77)

[#8354923] Nature has created so many languages * * that no human could possibly learn them all. (belkacem77)

[#9776973] Hanako's favorite anime is "Night on the Galactic Railroad * ". (DJ_Saidez)

[#9776972] Inuktitut * is a difficult language. (DJ_Saidez)

[#6687278] Our grandfather learned five languages * * as a child. (Eccles17)

[#6687277] Our grandfather learned five languages * when he was growing up. (Eccles17)

[#9120554] North Korea * is located near Japan. (fluffyUser)

[#6990507] * Demander can also mean “to wonder” in French, if you put the word me in front of it. So, for example, the expression “Je me demande quand le film commence” means, “I wonder when the movie begins.” (Hybrid)

[#8604717] High volumes of patients needing hospitalization at the same time can overwhelm health care services, leading to a shortage of beds or attending staff. The end result can be inadequate treatment and more deaths. * (Hybrid)

[#8604704] Public health officials say that while the health care system is holding up, it is under extraordinary strain that will likely worsen if drastic containment measures announced Sunday by Prime Minister Giuseppe Conte don't start having an effect. * * (Hybrid)

[#8626727] Why do women paint their nails? * (Hybrid)

[#2915493] This ticket is made * * out of paper. (j0rd4nkzf)

[#8209929] I want to learn languages * * faster. (josivangoncalves)

[#8199656] My 7 favorite languages * * are English, French, Spanish, German, Japanese, Chinese, Portuguese. (josivangoncalves)

[#3366838] All History shows: idioms of dominant states often lead to the disappearance of the languages of the dominated states. Greek engulfed the Phrygian. Latin killed the Iberian and Gallic. Currently, 25 languages * * are disappearing every year! Understand one thing: I'm not fighting against English, I fight for diversity. An Armenian proverb wonderfully summarizes my thought: "The more languages you know, the more you are a person." (Malape)

[#3416377] Americans wanted to impose the idea that a book or a movie should be considered the same as any commercial object. For they understood that besides the army, diplomacy and trade there is also a cultural war. It's a battle they intend to win both for noble reasons -- the United States has always felt that its values * * are universal -- and less noble ones: the education of minds is the best way to sell American products. Consider that cinema represents their most important export, ahead of weapons, aerospace or computers! Hence their desire to impose English as a global language. Even if we can observe for the last two decades a decline in their influence. (Malape)

[#3366841] The more languages * * you know, that many times you're a person. (Malape)

[#6477717] * I left out the last question because it was too difficult. (nickyeow)

[#3553386] All students have to learn both national languages * * in mainland Finland. (Objectivesea)

[#10071322] After getting a taste from selling old clothes at a high price on the flea market * , she finally set up her recycling shop. (tsp_2)

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DJ_Saidez DJ_Saidez 14 days ago September 6, 2021 at 1:44:51 AM UTC link Permalink

Fixed mine
I wonder how that space got into these sentences

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AlanF_US AlanF_US 14 days ago September 6, 2021 at 3:11:10 PM UTC link Permalink

I fixed mine as well. However, now I think things are in an undefined state, where people have fixed some instances, but not others, and it's hard to tell which are which. Searching eng_sentences_detailed.tsv won't help anymore because it is only produced once a week.

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CK CK 13 days ago, edited 13 days ago September 7, 2021 at 1:26:36 AM UTC, edited September 7, 2021 at 1:35:33 AM UTC link Permalink

I would assume that someone with direct access to the database could do a find-and-replace, finding \x{200B} and replacing it with a space and then finding all multiple consecutive spaces and replacing them with 1 space.

Maybe, TRANG could do that for us.

Maybe something similar to this could also be done for all future edits or contributions in real time.

LimeGreenTeknii LimeGreenTeknii 15 days ago September 5, 2021 at 7:07:11 PM UTC link Permalink

This explains an issue I've been having with Anki! I'd type in the exact correct answer, and it would say some of my spaces were different from the answer.

If this is the culprit, then it's not exclusive to the English sentences; they appear in some of the Spanish sentences too.

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CK CK 14 days ago, edited 14 days ago September 6, 2021 at 12:01:43 AM UTC, edited September 6, 2021 at 4:24:17 AM UTC link Permalink

1,021 such sentences in last Saturday's exported data.

Here they all are for anyone who is interested.

Sentences with \x{200B}
http://tatoeba.ueuo.com/temp/200B.zip

TRANG TRANG 12 days ago September 8, 2021 at 12:41:42 PM UTC link Permalink

I've opened a ticket on GitHub for this: https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/2840

Is there any situation where a zero-width space would be necessary in a sentence in Tatoeba? If not, then we can automatically remove before saving the sentence in the database.

And for the existing sentences, we can do a mass-replace.

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Yorwba Yorwba 9 days ago September 11, 2021 at 2:55:38 PM UTC link Permalink

> Is there any situation where a zero-width space would be necessary in a sentence in Tatoeba?

Zero-width spaces exist because there are languages that do not traditionally space out individual words, but where adding a line break at the end of a word is preferred. Zero-width spaces allow marking those word boundaries.

For languages that do use spaces as word separators, soft hyphens work similarly, except they become visible if a line break is inserted at that position. We also have a number of sentences using soft hyphens on Tatoeba, and they're likely to cause all the same issues with invisible differences between otherwise identical sentences.

The language with the most sentences using zero-width spaces on Tatoeba is Khmer. Although the majority of Khmer sentences does not make use of them, some people apparently care enough about zero-width spaces to patch Wordpress specifically so they could use them: https://sbbic.org/2016/08/24/fi...sue-wordpress/

So I think completely removing them wouldn't be a good idea.

lbdx lbdx 9 days ago September 11, 2021 at 7:51:07 AM UTC link Permalink

** Tatominer **

Thanks to Guybrush88, Silja, Polgar1, Seael, Ricardo14, Objectivesea, Pfirsichbaeumchen, AlanF_US, DaoSeng, LimeGreenTeknii, carlosalberto, Selena777, Yorwba, DJ_Saidez and small_snow for their 169 contributions that helped move the project forward this week.

Check out the most searched words that lack sentences or translations in your language at https://tatominer.netlify.app.

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small_snow small_snow 9 days ago September 11, 2021 at 8:01:38 AM UTC link Permalink

To be honest, I'm always happy to see my name here. Thank you, too.

lbdx lbdx 16 days ago September 4, 2021 at 7:43:38 AM UTC link Permalink

** Tatominer **

Thanks to Johannes_S, Seael, shekitten, Yorwba, bekindtoall, AlanF_US, Metsis, DaoSeng, LimeGreenTeknii, neco, Pfirsichbaeumchen, maaster and Polgar1 for their 168 contributions that helped move the project forward this week.

Check out the most searched words that lack sentences or translations in your language at https://tatominer.netlify.app.

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Ricardo14 Ricardo14 12 days ago September 8, 2021 at 7:37:27 PM UTC link Permalink

According to https://tatominer.netlify.app/por.html, it says that there are no sentences for "ciume". However, this word doesn't exist. It should be spelled "ciúme". (ú)

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lbdx lbdx 11 days ago September 8, 2021 at 9:05:57 PM UTC link Permalink

Thank you for reporting this. Despite my efforts, some spelling mistakes may fall through the cracks. When you spot errors, please feel free to send me a message so I can correct them from one week to the next.

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Yagurten Yagurten 11 days ago September 9, 2021 at 11:02:43 AM UTC link Permalink

How can one contribute?

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DJ_Saidez DJ_Saidez 11 days ago, edited 11 days ago September 9, 2021 at 3:42:26 PM UTC, edited September 9, 2021 at 3:42:46 PM UTC link Permalink

You'd use the website to see either words in a native language that are missing sentences, that you could make sentences using that word in Tatoeba sentences, or words in a target language that are missing translations in a native language, and then with links from the site you could translate sentences with those words

Both of them are basically contributing to Tatoeba, just using words recommended by Tatominer

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Yagurten Yagurten 10 days ago September 10, 2021 at 11:22:28 AM UTC link Permalink

Thank you, sir.