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Wall (6,291 threads)

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Before asking a question, make sure to read the FAQ.

We aim to maintain a healthy atmosphere for civilized discussions. Please read our rules against bad behavior.

Latest messages subdirectory_arrow_right

mraz

an hour ago

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GlossaMatik

8 hours ago

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Yorwba

11 hours ago

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mraz

14 hours ago

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GlossaMatik

19 hours ago

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Pfirsichbaeumchen

19 hours ago

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terrywallwork

21 hours ago

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DJ_Saidez

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sharptoothed

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lbdx

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mraz mraz 14 hours ago July 26, 2021 at 5:59:00 PM UTC link Permalink

Boldog születésnapot eszperantó!

1887. július 26-án jelent meg az eszperantó első tankönyve, így a mai napot tekintjük az "eszperantó nemzetközi nyelv" születésnapjának.

Sok örömet a nyelv minden ismerőjének és használójának!

Vivu la 26-a de Julio!

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mraz mraz an hour ago July 27, 2021 at 6:37:40 AM UTC link Permalink

Vivu la 26-a de Julio!

GlossaMatik GlossaMatik 19 hours ago July 26, 2021 at 1:03:30 PM UTC link Permalink

关于使用谐音书写:
我在书写吴语的时候碰到了这个问题,即每个人写的谐音可能是不一样的。在一种地区语言或方言没有正字法,或正字法没有被普及时,用不同的谐音字书写是否被允许?
我想听听大家的意见和看法。

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Yorwba Yorwba 11 hours ago July 26, 2021 at 8:40:59 PM UTC link Permalink

Tatoeba上很多语言,即便有正字法,也不一定只有一种正字法,同样会有不同的人用不同的方式来写同一个词的现象。这是被允许的。

我个人偏喜欢音义一致的写法。比如说,用“里向”来表达“里面”对我来说很好理解,因为“面向”本来是关联的词。(“里向”很可能是“里”+“向”的合成词吧?)当然,这主要是因为我完全不知道是什么发音,所以只能用词典和猜测来推理一个词的意思。

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GlossaMatik GlossaMatik 8 hours ago, edited 7 hours ago July 27, 2021 at 12:27:49 AM UTC, edited July 27, 2021 at 12:42:38 AM UTC link Permalink

谢谢Yorwba。语言的正字法的确不止一种,其他的谐音写法也不能被认为是错误。我会尽可能优先选用音义一致的写法,
比如说上海话中的“这”可以写成“格”或者“搿”,两种写法都会在上海话句子和教材中出现,不过后者可能更常用。

terrywallwork terrywallwork 21 hours ago July 26, 2021 at 11:15:33 AM UTC link Permalink

I am new to Tatoeba. I have read the Faq but I have a question about one of the interface icons.

On some Japanese sentence translations there is a red exclamation mark triangle. What is the meaning of this, and what is it for?

See google photo screenshot example :

https://photos.app.goo.gl/RgC7zH3rXszUEJA57

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Pfirsichbaeumchen Pfirsichbaeumchen 19 hours ago July 26, 2021 at 12:48:57 PM UTC link Permalink

It means that the reading aid (called 'furigana' in Japanese) has not been verified yet and could contain errors. Welcome to Tatoeba! 🙂

sharptoothed sharptoothed yesterday July 25, 2021 at 7:19:35 PM UTC link Permalink

* Tatoeba As A Graph *

Tatoeba internals represented as undirected graphs.

https://tatoeba.j-langtools.com/tgraph/

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DJ_Saidez DJ_Saidez yesterday July 25, 2021 at 11:09:43 PM UTC link Permalink

This is cool

AlanF_US AlanF_US 4 days ago July 22, 2021 at 4:09:23 PM UTC link Permalink

I said a few days ago that I wanted to respond to the thread about near-duplicates ( https://tatoeba.org/en/wall/sho...#message_37321 ), but I haven't had a chance to do it until now. Trang brought up many of the things that I would want to, but there are a few more things that I want to say.

(1) Diversity of sentences benefits everyone, beginners as well as advanced learners. Even simple sentences that are designed to demonstrate variation across a single dimension (such as substitution of a pronoun) are more valuable when they contain variety in multiple respects. We are humans, not machines, and we learn best when we're not bored.

(2) Even if an overabundance of near-duplicate sentences had a positive or neutral effect on beginning learners (which, as I say, I don't believe) but disadvantaged advanced learners, then we would need to take it seriously. This is true not only for what one might call ethical reasons (not wanting to frustrate advanced learners), but for practical ones as well (we want the contributions that advanced learners make; we want to serve the needs of a broad community so that people don't feel they need to leave Tatoeba once they achieve a certain level).

(3) Even if an overabundance of near-duplicate sentences had a positive or neutral effect on speakers of language X (which again, I don't believe in general) but disadvantaged English speakers, then we would need to take it seriously. Otherwise, we'd be simply substituting "X-centric" for "English-centric".

(4) There are many kinds of sets of near-duplicate sentences, and they exist on a continuum where the extent to which they reduce the quality of the corpus increases with:
(a) the number of sentences in a particular set
(b) the simplicity of the grammatical transformations required to produce one from another (so "drop-in" substitutions that leave the rest of the sentence untouched, like replacing "everyone" with "everybody", are less valuable than those that involve changing gender or tense)
(c) the lack of word-choice transformations required to produce one from another (where, for instance, changing a noun would also require changing the verb that is associated with it, as in "damage a building" -> "injure a person")
I believe Trang's point is that we should consider how to avoid adding the near-duplicates that are towards the wrong end of the scale of usefulness.

(5) By allowing us to write sentences virtually without restriction, Tatoeba already provides us a huge degree of self-expression. Ultimately, Trang is talking about how we can write sentences so that they achieve the most good. I feel like it's reasonable to ask ourselves that question, rather than reflexively jumping to a defense of what we've always done.

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lbdx lbdx 2 days ago, edited 2 days ago July 24, 2021 at 8:17:24 PM UTC, edited July 24, 2021 at 8:38:09 PM UTC link Permalink

I am also one of those who think that similar sentences generally bring more noise than value to Tatoeba's corpus.

In order to reduce the proportion of similar sentences, it might be useful to ask contributors for confirmation when they add an unlinked sentence whose originality is below a certain threshold.

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AlanF_US AlanF_US 2 days ago July 25, 2021 at 1:28:16 AM UTC link Permalink

> it might be useful to ask contributors for confirmation when they add an unlinked sentence whose originality is below a certain threshold.

That would be nice, but I'm sure it's beyond what we can do any time soon, given our limited number of developers and long backlog of requests. I think Trang's comment applies here as well:

"The reality about Tatoeba today is that it doesn't provide a full-fledged set of features for people to sort out what they possibly don't need. For all I know, it could take another ten years till we get there and during this time we cannot operate as if the necessary features were going to be rolled out tomorrow.

That being said, if someone wants to work on a technical solution to help users filter out near-duplicates, I have to remind that Tatoeba is an open source project and we're always more than happy to receive pull requests :)"

In the absence of such a feature, it comes down to contributors making an effort to write sentences that are less likely to be near-duplicates.

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lbdx lbdx yesterday, edited yesterday July 25, 2021 at 8:54:24 AM UTC, edited July 25, 2021 at 10:38:44 AM UTC link Permalink

> In the absence of such a feature, it comes down to contributors making an effort to write sentences that are less likely to be near-duplicates.

On the "Add sentences" page, we can read "Avoid using the same words, names, topics, or patterns over and over again." Yet some very large contributors have completely ignored this recommendation for years and continue to flood the corpus with low quality sentences.

I think it is now urgent to recognize that guidelines alone will not be sufficient and that it is necessary to introduce friction if we want to curb this phenomenon.

It is true that the feature I proposed in my previous post is difficult to implement in the short term. A simpler and more radical solution would be to cap the number of unlinked sentences a contributor can add in a given time period. Similarly, it might be useful to cap the total number of unlinked sentences that a user is allowed to own.

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Yorwba Yorwba yesterday July 25, 2021 at 11:51:13 AM UTC link Permalink

I don't think a cap on the number of unlinked sentences is going to work, because many near-duplicates get added by linking them to existing sentences.

E.g. #252252 was adopted by CC https://tatoeba.org/en/user/profile/CC , which helpfully states in the description that it's an account created specifically for "Sentences that I have either adopted or written that have a version with contractions." Then the version with contraction was added as a new sentence #10189287 and all sentences linked to #252252 were also linked to #10189287 , thus creating a near-duplicate with many links.

A cap on unlinked sentences wouldn't prevent this, and even a cap on all sentences would be easy to circumvent with multi-accounting.

I think this kind of behavior is caused by strict adherence to the rule that correct sentences shouldn't be changed, https://en.wiki.tatoeba.org/art...are-correct%2E so CK just adds his preferred variant to a whole lot of sentences. If we change the rule to allow changes to sentences you own or adopt, provided they don't change the meaning, we might get fewer of these kinds of near-duplicates.

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lbdx lbdx yesterday, edited yesterday July 25, 2021 at 12:45:04 PM UTC, edited July 25, 2021 at 12:46:00 PM UTC link Permalink

> many near-duplicates get added by linking them to existing sentences

We could also cap the number of links per language that a contributor can add to a sentence. This would avoid situations like #8558069 .

> even a cap on all sentences would be easy to circumvent with multi-accounting

The goal is to set clear and sufficiently deterrent limits. Those who still choose to circumvent the rules will have to work harder.

ddnktr ddnktr 2 days ago July 24, 2021 at 3:17:03 PM UTC link Permalink

Does the list of "Vocabulary that needs sentences" (https://tatoeba.org/en/vocabula...sentences/eng) update as new sentences are added for those phrases? I like this page a lot and decided to use it to add English sentences a while ago, and I noticed that even when a given vocabulary request already has 9 sentences, the number doesn't change (and the entry doesn't disappear) after I add new sentences.

I noticed while looking around that other requests seem "frozen" based on the time they were added. "Spot on" is on page 24 of the English vocabulary requests (https://tatoeba.org/en/vocabula...s/eng?page=24) with "1 sentence," but when you click on the link to show the existing sentences, there are actually 24 sentences (https://tatoeba.org/en/sentence...&unapproved=). This is similar for a lot of other entries ("spouse" on page 25 doesn't have 1 sentence as is written, but 63). Maybe it would be more useful if the list periodically updated to reflect the number of existing sentences in the corpus. I don't know if someone has brought this up before.

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lbdx lbdx 2 days ago July 24, 2021 at 5:14:39 PM UTC link Permalink

I think this bug has already been reported: https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/2239

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ddnktr ddnktr 2 days ago July 24, 2021 at 6:00:22 PM UTC link Permalink

I wasn't aware. Thanks!

sharptoothed sharptoothed 2 days ago July 24, 2021 at 10:40:40 AM UTC link Permalink

** Stats & Graphs **

Tatoeba Stats, Graphs & Charts have been updated:
https://tatoeba.j-langtools.com/allstats/

lbdx lbdx 2 days ago July 24, 2021 at 8:31:18 AM UTC link Permalink

** Tatominer **

Thanks to Yorwba, Walentinio, marafon, Objectivesea, AlanF_US, Polgar1, cojiluc, shekitten, ddnktr, small_snow, maaster, Rafik, glavsaltulo, iiujik, Jeigmz, Shishir, aldar, megamanenm and giuliopaci for their 112 contributions that helped move the project forward this week.

Check out the most searched words that lack sentences or translations in your language at https://tatominer.netlify.app.

Elin Elin 8 days ago July 18, 2021 at 2:17:09 PM UTC link Permalink

Hello, I am new here and I have a question: how does one report incorrect sentences? I can see no flag option.

I left a comment containing the correct translation a week ago, but no-one has responded or corrected the sentence.

Thank you for the help: I am looking at the wiki as well but it is not obvious where to find this information.

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AlanF_US AlanF_US 8 days ago July 18, 2021 at 3:57:49 PM UTC link Permalink

Welcome to Tatoeba, Elin!

You did the right thing by adding a comment. If you stay around for a while, you will gain the ability to add tags (such as "@check" and "@change") that are periodically checked.

Unfortunately, if you look at this page:

https://tatoeba.org/en/stats/native_speakers

you'll see that Welsh has no admins, corpus maintainers, or advanced contributors, and in fact it has only three contributors in total. This makes you all the more valuable to us :) but it explains why no one has responded to you yet.

Admins and corpus maintainers can modify or delete sentences from languages that they don't know as long as they are given clear, reliable information. So now that we know that you're adding comments, we can periodically look at them.

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Elin Elin 8 days ago July 18, 2021 at 6:10:09 PM UTC link Permalink

Thank you Alan - a really helpful reply.

I have been learning Welsh (as an adult) for 6 years and am happy to help with sentences at the beginner's (Mynediad/Sylfaen) end of the spectrum. I learn De Cymraeg (South Walian) but at the Uwch 2 level I have just completed, more and more North Walian is being introduced - which will necessitate more pseudo-duplicate sentences!!

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maaster maaster 7 days ago July 20, 2021 at 5:55:57 AM UTC link Permalink

You can only add tags at least as an advanced contributor.
If you write a comment into the comment field, you can use the @-sign; e.g.: @AlanF_US and in this case Alan gets a massage.

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Elin Elin 6 days ago July 20, 2021 at 6:21:59 PM UTC link Permalink

Thank you :o)

mraz mraz 7 days ago July 20, 2021 at 6:10:12 AM UTC link Permalink
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mraz mraz 6 days ago, edited 6 days ago July 20, 2021 at 1:30:15 PM UTC, edited July 20, 2021 at 2:22:40 PM UTC link Permalink
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