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CK CK 25 days ago January 27, 2024 at 8:49:45 AM UTC link Permalink

🍎 Tatoeba.org Native Speakers with Native Language Sentences

http://tatoeba.ueuo.com/stats-2024-01-27.html

Find native speakers of languages you are studying and get links to their native language sentences.

The link above is to a page that shows only the 3,999 contibutors with 20 or more native-speaker sentences.

These members have contributed 99.7% of the native-speaker sentences.

If you want to see all such contributors, try the following link.

There is a lot of data, so the page will be slower to load, and may possibly not work on some devices.

http://tatoeba.ueuo.com/stats-2024-01-27all.html

Updated: 2024-01-27

eeyinn eeyinn January 17, 2024 January 17, 2024 at 1:30:44 AM UTC link Permalink

Hello,
I would like to offer translations in 2 cousin languages i am studying, of which i seem to be the only speaker or student on Tatoeba (L2) and whose way of constructing sentences is so different from other language corpuses I've contributed to on Tatoeba that I'm not sure how to proceed.
In Muscogee and in Hitchiti, a sentence like "Tom had an idea" isn't a sentence. Sentences start and end with entire "scenes" like in a movie. In a paragraph-length text, you don't have many sentences back to back, each conjugated for person and tense and such. They are meant to start and end with the "scene" you are you describing, composed of many short thoughts stitched together, with barely conjugated verbs throughout a typically very long sentence, and fully conjugated verbs only appear at the very end of the sentence where the "scene" you're narrating finally concludes a paragraph or two later. So when I get a sentence like "Tom had a great idea", that is not a whole scene and so It doesn't actually feel right to conjugate it as, let's say "Tom-ke vkerrickv herēmahēn hayvtēs." (tom mad a very good idea, conjugated to be very long ago). But, if conjugate it as the "clause/fragment" that Muscogee would treat it as, it wouldn't be a complete sentence, and so it wouldn't really include the period at the end of the sentence, which are always at the end of Tatoeba sentences as a matter of policy.

So I guess, what I'm asking is, what should I do? Should I conjugate these short sentences as all occurring in the recent past and constituting a full story, against the language's actual syntax, or should I write them as the clauses that the language would make them into being in a fuller-fledged sentence, but not actually provide "sentence-bearing complete sentences" as Tatoeba makes all of its entries?

Thankful for the Tatoeba project. 🙏

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Objectivesea Objectivesea January 17, 2024 January 17, 2024 at 3:53:06 AM UTC link Permalink

By its nature, Tatoeba leans towards short, complete utterances, even though such short sentences are obviously removed, in most cases, from a larger context. It is possible to construct scenes by assembling Tatoeba sentences into a defined order, and there are sometimes paragraph-long Tatoeba entries consisting of ten or more sentences, but these are frowned on as being unlikely to ever be tackled for translation. Also in such cases, we can run into a limit on the number of characters to be represented, and this can make a Tatoeba translation into certain languages impossible.

As a practical matter, I like to think of Tatoeba as a tool for the language learner and not as a comprehensive multilingual encyclopædia of all possible utterances. For me, in such a tool, sentences should be as short as possible while still conveying some meaning.

For me, a minimal sentence has a noun and a verb. Then there are transitive sentences with a direct and/or indirect object. A few well-chosen adjectives and adverbs add some spice, and then coordinate and subordinate conjunctions link related thoughts together. This works well for most European languages. Different structures are likely necessary for agglutinative languages, and I understand that North American Indigenous languages make use of a fourth-person pronoun on occasion.

Your contributions in Muscogee and Hitchiti will be valuable to Tatoeba, as I think we are unlikely to find a native speaker, which would have been ideal. I would suggest that you begin with the simplest of sentences which can be unambiguously represented in those languages and which are grammatically correct, even though they may convey only a little of the flavour of an Indigenous Knowledge Keeper , Elder or Matriarch relating the oral history from his or her ancestors.

Thanuir Thanuir January 17, 2024, edited January 17, 2024 January 17, 2024 at 7:26:45 AM UTC, edited January 17, 2024 at 7:29:43 AM UTC link Permalink

With Kven, which I read but can not use fluently, I add simple sentences I am sufficiently certain of and then translate to Finnish, rather than trying to translate from other languages to Kven. Maybe this approach works for you, too - try to put in example sentences you have strong reasons to believe are correct, and then translate those to your native language(s).

As a bonus, you are likely to increase the diversity of the corpus by getting culture-specific sentences and not getting Tom everywhere.

brauchinet brauchinet January 19, 2024, edited January 19, 2024 January 19, 2024 at 9:53:33 AM UTC, edited January 19, 2024 at 9:56:32 AM UTC link Permalink

Very interesting.
I think you are the best person to decide how to do it, and there isn’t much to be done wrong.
Tatoeba states that sentences should be natural sounding. If you feel that a "sentence" would be natural sounding within a specific context, it might be okay to add it that way even when the verb isn’t conjugated und the context isn’t known. If it sounds like „…have an idea and …“ and people would react „huh – and what?“, it would not be a suitable sentence.
The definition of sentence will vary between languages. If grammar requires that you always conjugate verbs, utterances without such a verb might not be considered full sentences. I unconjugated verbs are just normal, such a definition doesn’t make much sense. It’s true that Tatoeba sentences require a full stop, mostly because most languages require a full stop at the end of sentences. So for the sake of consistency and to avoid comments and questions, couldn’t you simply add full stops? I wonder if there is really a Muscogee rule saying you mustn’t use a full stop.

Sometimes one has to “make up” some extra information in the target language that is in the source language. For example, I heard some languages require that speakers choose between different verb forms indicating the degree of certainty. Since this information isn’t in an English sentence you need to decide yourself when translating.
So in your case, you could also add more than one possible translation and annotate it in the comment section, one as whole scene in the distant past and one as part of an (imaginary) scene.

jlake jlake January 17, 2024 January 17, 2024 at 3:25:09 AM UTC link Permalink

old style was way better , i mean vertically

hectorM hectorM December 26, 2023 December 26, 2023 at 10:23:49 AM UTC link Permalink

Hello,
I'm useing Tatoeba on FireFox. The Css is broken. Try it ! Sign in and have a look at the menu.
Thx
hector

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AlanF_US AlanF_US December 26, 2023, edited December 26, 2023 December 26, 2023 at 12:58:32 PM UTC, edited December 26, 2023 at 12:59:05 PM UTC link Permalink

It looks fine to me. Which menu are you looking at, and what are the problems you're seeing? Did you try clearing cookies for the site? Did you try another browser?

deniko deniko December 29, 2023 December 29, 2023 at 3:03:47 PM UTC link Permalink

I've been using Tatoeba mostly on Firefox myself for years, and I'm using Firefox right now.

It's always been working well. Can you share some screenshots of your issues?

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hectorM hectorM January 7, 2024 January 7, 2024 at 9:16:53 PM UTC link Permalink

I'm on Ubuntu 22, Firefox 121. Je suis en Français.
How can I add a screenshot here ?

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Cangarejo Cangarejo January 7, 2024, edited January 8, 2024 January 7, 2024 at 9:45:47 PM UTC, edited January 8, 2024 at 6:37:07 PM UTC link Permalink

You upload it to somewhere else and post the link here.

https://www.google.com/search?q=upload+images

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hectorM hectorM January 13, 2024, edited January 13, 2024 January 13, 2024 at 3:09:08 PM UTC, edited January 13, 2024 at 3:09:31 PM UTC link Permalink

here is a screenshot of the advanced search
https://imgur.com/a/v7H2MwL
hector

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Cangarejo Cangarejo January 14, 2024 January 14, 2024 at 6:23:07 PM UTC link Permalink

https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/3096

Yorwba Yorwba January 14, 2024 January 14, 2024 at 6:41:38 PM UTC link Permalink

Here's what it looks like in my Firefox 121 on NixOS 23.11: https://i.imgur.com/3f7NUao.png

If you make the browser window narrower, does it switch to a different layout?

If you restart Firefox in Troubleshoot Mode (in the menu bar under Help > Troubleshoot Mode) does the problem go away?

thoni56 thoni56 January 11, 2024 January 11, 2024 at 4:48:11 PM UTC link Permalink

I came here from learning Italian using Tatoeba translations. When translating sentences like "Did you work yesterday?" you get "Lei ha lavorato ieri?" which is not what you would have thought from the English text since the Italian uses the formal "You" (Lei) rather than the informal "you" (tu).

I know tatoeba is community-driven so there are no "policies", but would you agree that in many languages this distinction is important and should be reflected as much as possible in the translations?

If so what can I do to help? Start entering alternative translations in the formal tone?

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Thanuir Thanuir January 11, 2024 January 11, 2024 at 5:58:34 PM UTC link Permalink

Is the Italian distinction similar to French «vous» and «tu»?

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Guybrush88 Guybrush88 January 11, 2024 January 11, 2024 at 6:07:35 PM UTC link Permalink

> Is the Italian distinction similar to French «vous» and «tu»?

yes, it's the same distinction. Along with this, Italian has a distinction also with the plural "you" (the plural "vous" in French)

Thanuir Thanuir January 11, 2024 January 11, 2024 at 6:37:14 PM UTC link Permalink

In English «you» is both polite and informal, as well as both singular and plural. A lot of sentences get translated into sentences with «you», and those tend to have many translations to other languages.

Writing it with a capital letter, as in «You», to signal politeness is not standard. See https://english.stackexchange.c...orm-of-writing .

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thoni56 thoni56 January 11, 2024, edited January 11, 2024 January 11, 2024 at 8:06:29 PM UTC, edited January 11, 2024 at 8:10:45 PM UTC link Permalink

It is probably not standard. I come from a learning perspective where this would be very helpful. Hence my suggestion.

Is there any other way the difference in politeness could be made visible in Tatoeba?

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AlanF_US AlanF_US January 12, 2024 January 12, 2024 at 3:42:34 AM UTC link Permalink

Tatoeba is a collection of (1) sentences that are meant to look and sound natural but are not necessarily limited to a particular situation and (2) links between two sentences that can match in at least one situation, but are not guaranteed to match in every respect. Once a translation is added to a sentence, the translation and the original sentence are equally important. The translation is meant to be able to stand on its own; it is not as though its only purpose is to tell you what the original sentence means. Therefore, it also has to be natural.

The English sentence "Did you work yesterday?" could be either formal or informal. There's not enough context to decide. Capitalizing "you" would violate the "look natural" requirement, especially because a capitalized pronoun is generally reserved for a deity in a monotheistic religion (as is mentioned on the linked page in Thanuir's comment). Similarly, adding "(formal)" to the text of the sentence would also make it look unnatural, and is against the site's guidelines.

The Italian sentence "Lei ha lavorato ieri?" matches at least one situation in which "Did you work yesterday?" could be used, namely to address someone formally. So they are valid translations of each other in the Tatoeba world. If someone wants to copy the pair to a place outside Tatoeba and manipulate one or both of the sentences in some way (add tags, colors, or explanatory notes) so that learners could know that they're supposed to provide the formal "Lei" where English has the formal or informal "you", they are free to do it there. But doing it inside Tatoeba would violate the way the site works.

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morbrorper morbrorper January 12, 2024 January 12, 2024 at 9:46:50 AM UTC link Permalink

It would be helpful if we could annotate "translations" on Tatoeba, i.e., the links between sentences. Annotating sentences with tags and comments is not a good substitute for this.

Re the Italian sentence in question, it could be translated back to English as "Did she work yesterday?", if I'm not mistaken.

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Guybrush88 Guybrush88 January 12, 2024 January 12, 2024 at 10:43:59 AM UTC link Permalink

> Re the Italian sentence in question, it could be translated back to English as "Did she work yesterday?", if I'm not mistaken.

Yes, it's a possible translation

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thoni56 thoni56 January 14, 2024 January 14, 2024 at 2:47:04 PM UTC link Permalink

I agree with @morbrorper that adding some metadata indicating "flavours" or "tones" (and perhaps other information) as an inherent part of Tatoeba to distinguish between the various (possible) translations would be very helpful.

I realise this would require not only work but also substantial analysis of language differences, so consider it just a request ;-)

sharptoothed sharptoothed January 14, 2024 January 14, 2024 at 10:24:03 AM UTC link Permalink

✹✹ Stats & Graphs ✹✹

Tatoeba Stats, Graphs & Charts have been updated:
https://tatoeba.j-langtools.com/allstats/

sharptoothed sharptoothed December 31, 2023, edited December 31, 2023 December 31, 2023 at 9:22:58 AM UTC, edited December 31, 2023 at 9:23:06 AM UTC link Permalink

✹✹ Tatoeba Year 2023 Graphs ✹✹

https://tatoeba.j-langtools.com...23/graphs.html

Previous years:
https://tatoeba.j-langtools.com...22/graphs.html
https://tatoeba.j-langtools.com...21/graphs.html
https://tatoeba.j-langtools.com...20/graphs.html
https://tatoeba.j-langtools.com...19/graphs.html
https://tatoeba.j-langtools.com...18/graphs.html
https://tatoeba.j-langtools.com...17/graphs.html
https://tatoeba.j-langtools.com...16/graphs.html

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Chitra150 Chitra150 January 12, 2024 January 12, 2024 at 9:43:15 AM UTC link Permalink

Thanks for sharing this.

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sharptoothed sharptoothed January 12, 2024 January 12, 2024 at 2:23:42 PM UTC link Permalink

My pleasure! :-)

Chitra150 Chitra150 January 12, 2024 January 12, 2024 at 9:44:56 AM UTC link Permalink

Hello Everyone,
Happy new year to all!
I am new to this community. I want to learn French. So here I want to learn some tips for learning French.

January 10, 2024 January 10, 2024 at 3:56:05 AM UTC link Permalink
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January 10, 2024 January 10, 2024 at 3:52:29 AM UTC link Permalink
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