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Cumle #1159848

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Cumleya şima nêamê îlawekerdene çunke cêrênî xora estê.
Cumle #{{vm.sentence.id}} – aîdê {{vm.sentence.user.username}} ya Cumle #{{vm.sentence.id}}
{{vm.sentence.furigana.info_message}} {{vm.sentence.text}}
star Na cumle aîdê qiseykerdoxêko/a ziwanê dayîke ya.
warning Na cumle muteber nîya.
content_copy Cumle kopya bike info Şo rîpelê cumle
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{{transcription.info_message}}
Açarnayîşî
Lînkê nê açarnayîşî wedarne link Bike açarnayîşo raşteraşt chevron_right
{{translation.furigana.info_message}} {{translation.text}} Cumleya mewcûde #{{::translation.id}} sey açarnayîşêk amê îlawekerdene.
edit Nê açarnayîşî pergal bike
warning Na cumle muteber nîya.
content_copy Cumle kopya bike info Şo rîpelê cumle
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{{transcription.info_message}}
Açarnayîşanê açarnayîşan
Lînkê nê açarnayîşî wedarne link Bike açarnayîşo raşteraşt chevron_right
{{translation.furigana.info_message}} {{translation.text}} Cumleya mewcûde #{{::translation.id}} sey açarnayîşêk amê îlawekerdene.
edit Nê açarnayîşî pergal bike
warning Na cumle muteber nîya.
content_copy Cumle kopya bike info Şo rîpelê cumle
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{{transcription.info_message}}
{{vm.expandableIcon}} {{vm.sentence.expandLabel}} Hîna tay açarnayîşî

Şiroveyî

jdmcowan jdmcowan February 11, 2013 February 11, 2013 at 2:59:08 AM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

There's no verb. It should be, <nuq 'oH SuwonmIy mon'e'?>

loghaD loghaD February 11, 2013 February 11, 2013 at 11:32:11 AM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

Your sentence actually doesn't contain any verbs, either; it contains two nouns and two {chuvmey} ;)

Basically, the words {nuq} and {'Iv} function similarly to the pronomial {chuvmey}, so they sometimes act like nouns and sometimes like verbs.

For example, some canonical sentences include {Dochvam nuq?} ("What is this?") and {Daqvam nuq?} ("What is this place?").

Elaboration by Marc Okrand:
Question words (in this case, nuq "what?") function the same way pronouns do in questions with "to be" in the English translations. Thus, the question yIH nuq? "What is a tribble?" is exactly parallel the statement yIH 'oH "It is a tribble" (where yIH is "tribble" and 'oH is "it").

Source: http://klingonska.org/canon/sea...txt&get=source

jdmcowan jdmcowan February 11, 2013 February 11, 2013 at 3:44:14 PM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

Thanks. I hadn't seen that and didn't realize that they could be used as verbs like other pronouns can be. However, in that response from Okrand, he explains that wording the question in this way would be asking for an explanation of what the term <SuwonmIy mon> means. Following his suggestion there, this sentence might better be worded as <SuwonmIy mon yIngu'.>

loghaD loghaD February 11, 2013 February 11, 2013 at 3:52:38 PM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

I think it depends on what you're asking, much as is the case in English. When asking "What is a tribble?", an explanation of what a tribble is the most sensible answer. If one can instead explain it simply by naming it, that would be a sensible answer.

I could go for {SuwomIy mon yIngu'!}, though, or possibly {SuwomIy mon yIper!}; not sure which is more appropriate.

jdmcowan jdmcowan February 11, 2013 February 11, 2013 at 4:40:01 PM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

I think the best English translation for <SuwomIy mon nuq?> would be, "What is a 'Finland's capital'?" I guess if I had been to Helsinki before, saying the name would be sufficient answer. Otherwise you would need to explain to me what that meant. Though I suppose as long as I know what <SuwomIy> is I could figure out that you were really asking me to identify the capital. But I still claim this is not the way a native speaker would ask it.

I've always understood <yIper> to mean, "give it a name," or, "find out about it," and <yIngu'> to mean, "tell/show me."

Vortarulo Vortarulo February 11, 2013 February 11, 2013 at 4:48:07 PM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

I agree with loghaD's analysis. I understand that "nuq" can mean both "what is a" and "what is (the)", scoping over definite and indefinite noun phrases. There are indeed canon examples for definite phrases:

nuq mI'lIj, tera'ngan?
What is your number, Terran?

Dujvetlh 'oH nuq? [sic]
What ship is that?

So "nuq" can ask for a definition as well as the name of a thing.

jdmcowan jdmcowan February 11, 2013 February 11, 2013 at 6:41:16 PM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

I obviously need to work on my understanding of <nuq>. I agree that whether the article is definite or indefinite is not the important thing here. There is no significant difference in Klingon or English between the questions, "What is a tribble," and, "What is the tribble?" But there is a big difference between, "Explain to me what the capital of Finland is," and, "Tell me which city is the capital of Finland," which I think is the difference here.

I'll go do some more research and discussions on how <nuq> is used and come back to let you know if I've changed my mind. Can you tell me where that second example sentence is from and who marked it "[sic]" and why?

Vortarulo Vortarulo February 11, 2013 February 11, 2013 at 6:59:41 PM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

I marked it with [sic] because it contains the pronoun/copula as well. Some of the sentences I have in my collection, do. I am using a dictionary software for my private version of the Klingon Dictionary and I also collect cannon phrases. Unfortunately I have added the sources only to lexemes but not to the sentences themselves. So I unfortunately don't know where this particular sentence is from.
Here are all my sentences that contain "nuq":

Duj ghoStaH nuq? «What is coming toward the ship?»
nuq legh yaS? «What does the officer see?»
nuq Dalegh? «What do you see?»
Dochvam nuq? «What is this?»
nuq mI'lIj, tera'ngan? «What is your number, Terran?»
Sojvetlh 'oH nuq'e'? «What is this food?»
nuq DaneH? «What do you want?»
DaH nuq ta'pu' Day joH? «What has Lady Di done now?»
yIH nuq? «What is a tribble?»
nuq DaDab? «Where do you live? / What do you inhabit?»
Dujvetlh 'oH nuq? «What ship is that?»
nuq Datlhutlh DaneH? «What would you like to drink?»

About the difference in the two readings of "nuq": I think, the word might be as ambiguous/vague as the English word is. English "What is X?" can mean "Please define X!" and "Please name X!" (and some others). Examples for these two readings would be "What is a capital?" and "What is the capital of Finland?" in these cases. English uses the same construction in both cases (Lojban probably doesn't)... even though Klingon works quite different from Klingon, maybe it's similar in this respect.

I'm looking forward to what you find. I'd like to know, too.

loghaD loghaD February 11, 2013 February 11, 2013 at 7:25:15 PM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

The reason it has a [sic] is likely because it's an example of the Morskan dialect, which tends to leave out the -'e' in sentences such as {Dujvetlh 'oH nuq['e']?}

Uhura's reply to that was "We are the freighter Ursva." Whether or not that was a correct reply is, of course, up for question.

---------------------------

With regards to {ngu'}/{per}: I suspect both would work, but here's an interesting note on {per}:

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This [rep yIper] is literally "Label the hour!" (<rep> "hour"; <yIper> "label [it]!," consisting of the imperative prefix <yI-> plus <per> "label"). Though the verb <per> "label" is usually used in the sense of "attach or assign a name to," it can also be used for such notions as "ascertain, specify, pin down."

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So, possibly, {SuwomIy mon yIper!} would be more appropriate if you had a list of city names and you wanted to know which one was Finland's capital, and {ngu'} would be more appropriate if you had no such indication.

jdmcowan jdmcowan February 12, 2013 February 12, 2013 at 4:36:46 PM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

After further consideration I am not convinced that this is correct, but I am convinced that I do not have a strong argument to make. I think it is safest to use <nuq> as a verb only when you are asking for a definition or an explanation and use <ngu'> or <per> when you want something to be identified or named. But I can't say that you are wrong.

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License: CC BY 2.0 FR

Dekewtişî

Na cumle verî sey açarnayîşê cumleya #622390Was ist die Hauptstadt von Finnland? amê îlawekerdene.

SuwomIy mon nuq?

hetê Vortarulora ame îlawekerdene, October 7, 2011

hetê Vortarulo ra ame girêdayene, October 7, 2011

SuwomIy mon nuq?

hetê loghaDra ame îlawekerdene, February 10, 2013

hetê loghaD ra ame girêdayene, February 10, 2013