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I saw that this sentence:
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/33015
had a "@needs native check" tag, so I looked at it. I agreed with the previous commenter that it was a sentence fragment, so I adopted it and made it into a full sentence. After that, I wanted to tag it "OK". But I got this message: "Tag 'OK' already exists for sentence #33015, or cannot be added".
I find this message rather unhelpful. First of all, the code should be able to distinguish between those two cases. But more importantly, it would be good to explain WHY the tag can't be added. Even better would be if the tag COULD be added, since I don't see a reason why it shouldn't be allowed. Perhaps there's a policy that one can't mark one's own sentence OK? I would disagree with that policy, but if it is in place, there ought to be another way that one can signal that the requested native check was supplied.
> Perhaps there's a policy that one can't mark one's own sentence OK?
Yes, there is. You could have added the tag before you adopted the sentence.
It seems a little problematic to me (especially because it makes following the logs confusing) that you need to mark the sentence "OK" before it actually is OK. But if this needs to be the case, I would argue that the message should say "You cannot mark your own sentence OK." This would be more informative.
It is standard policy that authors can't OK tag their own sentences. Otherwise, OK tags would lose their point...
Yes, I think that's evident. This tag doesn't mean "I (the owner of the sentence) think this sentence is OK" (We can take this for granted, can't we?). It means that at least a second person (and this one necessarily has to be a native speaker) confirms that the sentence is OK.
I basically agree with your point, but
> I adopted it and made it into a full sentence.
you shouldn't have done this, since the sentence had already Japanese and Turkish translations that are clearly not talking about Picasso.
You can change an orphan sentence only when you're sure that it'll match all the translations or when you don't change the meaning, like when you only correct the punctuation.
I'm not sure whether this is the shared policy, but at least this is what I believe.
Sorry. I wasn't set up to see Japanese and Turkish sentences, so I didn't realize they were there. I've changed my settings so that I now see all languages.
I think it is okay to change the meaning of an orphan sentence (provided it's only a fragment or is otherwise problematic) as long as you unlink it from other sentences. Is that correct, administrators? I really hope it is, since many bad orphan sentences attract at least one translation, and some of these sentences are fragments or don't have a clear meaning to start with.
I personally prefer to leave a comment in the sentences linked to it (maybe the whole set of sentences are just fragments or have the same kind of problem as the orphan one) and not unlinking unless they have already some translation and I'm sure they don't match, in order to give the owner the chance to correct their sentence if they want to.
C'est une question extrêmement délicate, sans doute la plus délicate de Tatoeba.
Question de contexte...
On peut être persuadé que deux phrases ne correspondent pas, bien qu'étant "expert" dans les deux et, pourtant, avoir tort parce qu'on ne se place pas dans le bon contexte. Certaines phrases sont tellement vagues qu'elles peuvent être traduites dans des dizaines de sens différents alors qu'à priori, on n'en voit qu'un qui soit évident...erreur grossière !
Je considère que délier des phrases subtilement liées, contre l'évidence, constitue le plus grand crime contre Tatoeba.
Moi, je parlais d'un contexte comme le suivant:
On a une phrase anglaise incorrecte (on peut bien prendre la phrase dont Alan parlait "I think it's very like."), qui a été traduite au turque avec le signifié "je crois que c'est très similaire" mais alors la phrase en anglais change car elle n'était pas correcte et Alan n'a pas vu la phrase turque; après le changement fait qui a ajouté quelques mots parmi lesquels on trouve le nom "Picasso", il n'y a aucune possibilité que ces deux phrases soient similaires ou doivent être liées. C'est dans ce cas extrême où il n'y a aucune possibilité d'en être tort et où on peut délier (surtout si la phrase turque a été traduite).
C'est bien pour les raisons dont tu parles que j'ai écrit dans mon commentaire "and I'm sure they don't match", dans mon cas, si je ne suis pas absolument sûre (et j'ai toujours constance de mon ignorance sur toutes les langues, la mienne incluse, alors il me faut des phrases comme celles dont je parlais dans le paragraphe précédent pour en être sûre), je ne vais pas délier. Si je crois que ça peut être le cas, je laisserai un commentaire sous la phrase qui me semble ne pas être une bonne traduction et attendrai une réponse avant délier.
Ben il ne faut pas traduire les phrases anglaises incorrectes...
I think the best would be
1 - correct / complete
2 - unlink
3 - put a comment on the unlinked sentence, so that the other can correct and reask for linking (I think we have enough advanced contributors / moderators so that "ling again" shouldn't be a big deal)
the advatange is that if the linked sentence owner does not anwer, we don't finish with sentences linked though they shouldn't be
That makes sense. I will think about writing this information somewhere on the wiki. This fits into a category of questions that aren't exactly FAQ (because they're not asked frequently), but come up often enough to be addressed.