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Mur (7,183 edefyn)

Awgrymiadau

Cyn i chi ofyn cwestiwn, darllenwch y Cwestiynau Cyffredin.

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4 diwrnod yn ôl

blay_paul blay_paul 30 Medi 2010 30 Medi 2010 am 22:05:00 UTC flag Report link Permalink

Thursday WWWJDIC update summary

28 records deleted.
107 new records.

blay_paul blay_paul 30 Medi 2010 30 Medi 2010 am 15:15:51 UTC flag Report link Permalink

Broken links after duplicate removal script.

I thought this was fixed, but apparently not completely.

See
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/87121
which is shown linked to
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/316587
(but the latter no longer exists).

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sysko sysko 30 Medi 2010 30 Medi 2010 am 15:54:44 UTC flag Report link Permalink

I don't know for the second sentence you've pointed, but the first one has been merged during the last "buggy" script. The current one can't fix the broken link. But I will see to make a one shot script, which will solve the "broken" links the buggy script made.

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blay_paul blay_paul 30 Medi 2010 30 Medi 2010 am 16:22:48 UTC flag Report link Permalink

Sentence
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/147262
shown as linked to
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/267298
which doesn't exist.

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blay_paul blay_paul 30 Medi 2010 30 Medi 2010 am 18:20:28 UTC flag Report link Permalink

Sentence
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/214515
shown as linked to
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/51807
which doesn't exist anymore.

blay_paul blay_paul 30 Medi 2010 30 Medi 2010 am 16:05:27 UTC flag Report link Permalink

> the first one has been merged during the last "buggy" script.

That's rather odd - I check the Japanese/English links twice a week.

blay_paul blay_paul 30 Medi 2010 30 Medi 2010 am 15:29:26 UTC flag Report link Permalink

Same thing here.
Original sentence
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/104003
shown linked to
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/299689
which doesn't exist now.

CK CK 30 Medi 2010, edited 26 Hydref 2019 30 Medi 2010 am 02:33:32 UTC, edited 26 Hydref 2019 am 04:08:45 UTC flag Report link Permalink

[not needed anymore- removed by CK]

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blay_paul blay_paul 30 Medi 2010 30 Medi 2010 am 05:59:17 UTC flag Report link Permalink

My, somebody went to a lot of trouble. But the list got there first (and has 40 or so more sentences).
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences_lists/show/113/

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Demetrius Demetrius 30 Medi 2010 30 Medi 2010 am 08:08:29 UTC flag Report link Permalink

Furigana is not displayed on the list page, unlike CK’s tag page.

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blay_paul blay_paul 30 Medi 2010 30 Medi 2010 am 12:33:02 UTC flag Report link Permalink

It's certainly true that Tags have become way more popular than lists. There are still some things that tags don't do, though. There's no option to export sentences from tags, for example. *hint hint*

MUIRIEL MUIRIEL 14 Medi 2010 14 Medi 2010 am 21:31:31 UTC flag Report link Permalink

I spoke with Trang about translating the "how to be a good contributor" manual in other languages.

http://blog.tatoeba.org/2010/02...n-tatoeba.html

I think the reasons to do it are clear - to exclude less people from understanding the project, getting trusted_user etc.

The problem is clear too - it's much work. But maybe for some languages we can find more than one volunteer to divide the work. So I begin^^: Is there anyone who would help me translate the guide from English to German?

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sacredceltic sacredceltic 26 Medi 2010 26 Medi 2010 am 22:53:50 UTC flag Report link Permalink

Si elle n'existe pas déjà, je veux bien m'occuper de la version francophone. Pouvez-vous confirmer qu'elle n'existe pas déjà ?

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TRANG TRANG 26 Medi 2010 26 Medi 2010 am 23:06:19 UTC flag Report link Permalink

Je confirme qu'elle n'existe pas. Du moins pas à ma connaissance. Ce serait vraiment appréciable si vous pouviez vous en occuper !

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sacredceltic sacredceltic 27 Medi 2010 27 Medi 2010 am 15:31:29 UTC flag Report link Permalink

Donc voilà, la traduction française est terminée.
https://docs8.google.com/docume...YOPdQn4&hl=fr#

J'invite tous les francophones qui n'ont pas encore lu le guide du contributeur Tatoeba à le lire. c'est non seulement très instructif, mais c'est sympa, aussi et ça répond à plein de questions que vous vous posez déjà.

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keklesurvivant keklesurvivant 28 Medi 2010 28 Medi 2010 am 00:25:16 UTC flag Report link Permalink

Pour une transcription directe, je la trouve plutôt pas mal. Mais bon, il y a quelques endroits qui me titillent un peu l'oreille comme "Le plus nous sommes" qu'il ne m'a pas semblé en voir des masses dans ce que je lis d'habitude, ou bien le "Faites connaître votre amour" qui me parait un peu pompeux (sans compter le sous-entendu bien sur).
Pour ce type de document, il faudrait aller au-delà d'une traduction directe, mais malheureusement je n'ai pas la prose de Trang.

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sacredceltic sacredceltic 28 Medi 2010 28 Medi 2010 am 09:55:47 UTC flag Report link Permalink

Ben tu peux la refaire...

sacredceltic sacredceltic 28 Medi 2010 28 Medi 2010 am 10:06:44 UTC flag Report link Permalink

et puis depuis 2 ans que tu es dans cette communauté, tu pourrais, pour commencer, montrer un peu de respect en appliquant la règle n°12...

sacredceltic sacredceltic 26 Medi 2010 26 Medi 2010 am 23:23:26 UTC flag Report link Permalink

Vendu !

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MUIRIEL MUIRIEL 27 Medi 2010 27 Medi 2010 am 13:32:20 UTC flag Report link Permalink

Thank you sacredceltic, brauliobezerra and Shishir - you're great :) !

brauliobezerra brauliobezerra 27 Medi 2010 27 Medi 2010 am 11:54:40 UTC flag Report link Permalink

I will do the Portuguese translation.

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Shishir Shishir 27 Medi 2010 27 Medi 2010 am 13:23:50 UTC flag Report link Permalink

And I can translate it into Spanish, if you want.

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Shishir Shishir 30 Medi 2010 30 Medi 2010 am 14:41:49 UTC flag Report link Permalink

I finished! Here is the Spanish version:

https://docs.google.com/documen...E&hl=en&pli=1#

zipangu zipangu 25 Medi 2010 25 Medi 2010 am 01:00:23 UTC flag Report link Permalink

I'm ready to do the job in Polish, we've got a lot of new contributors recently, just tell me how to do this (e-mail? google-docs?).

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TRANG TRANG 25 Medi 2010 25 Medi 2010 am 07:01:28 UTC flag Report link Permalink

Someday we will have a wiki, and it will be easier to manage this kind of content...

Until then, best solution (in my opinion) would be to use Google Docs, like GrizaLeono did. I will then add a link to your Google Doc. I will add it before the introduction in the original article.

Google Docs is practical because if you want to correct some mistakes in your translation, you can correct directly from your Google Doc, without having to send me your updated version and waiting for me to upload it :)
You can also share you Google document with other people, so that they can help you translate.

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zipangu zipangu 26 Medi 2010 26 Medi 2010 am 03:25:55 UTC flag Report link Permalink

OK, here goes Polish translation of the manual. I took the liberty to add in the end some remarks about specifically Polish language issues in translating sentences. Hope it helps.

https://docs.google.com/documen...3wpLF0yQ&hl=pl

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TRANG TRANG 26 Medi 2010 26 Medi 2010 am 21:49:59 UTC flag Report link Permalink

Thank you zipangu!! I added the link to your Google document :)

http://blog.tatoeba.org/2010/02...n-tatoeba.html

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zipangu zipangu 26 Medi 2010 26 Medi 2010 am 23:17:28 UTC flag Report link Permalink

Thank you, MUIRIEL & TRANG!

MUIRIEL MUIRIEL 26 Medi 2010 26 Medi 2010 am 11:10:31 UTC flag Report link Permalink

Oh, wow, thank you very much, zipangu!

You're all so quick and I still didn't finish the German translation, but I promise I will (maybe in a week).

blay_paul blay_paul 24 Medi 2010 24 Medi 2010 am 18:40:04 UTC flag Report link Permalink

> The problem is clear too - it's much work.

Yeah, I think the original is too wordy. There should probably be a version cut down to the essentials that is about 1/5 the size of the full version.

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GrizaLeono GrizaLeono 24 Medi 2010 24 Medi 2010 am 22:14:20 UTC flag Report link Permalink

Yes, the text is a bit long, but it explains quite well what contributors should do.

GrizaLeono GrizaLeono 24 Medi 2010 24 Medi 2010 am 11:54:06 UTC flag Report link Permalink

"how to be a good contributor" --> "Kiel esti bona kontribuanto"
Mi Esperantigis la anglan version kaj sendis la adreson al Muiriel.
I did translate the English version into Esperanto and I sent the address to Muiriel.

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sacredceltic sacredceltic 24 Medi 2010 24 Medi 2010 am 15:17:28 UTC flag Report link Permalink

Koran dankon kaj gratulon Muiriel kaj GrizaLeono!

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MUIRIEL MUIRIEL 24 Medi 2010 24 Medi 2010 am 17:49:11 UTC flag Report link Permalink

Mi ne faris nenion! Ni ŝuldas dankon nur al GrizaLeono :) !

MUIRIEL MUIRIEL 24 Medi 2010 24 Medi 2010 am 12:06:47 UTC flag Report link Permalink

Se vi konsentas, mi plusentos vian tradukon al Trang por publicaĵo. Denove koran dankon por tiun laboron - estas fantasta :) !

(Cetere, mi ne ankoraŭ ricevis vian retpoŝton... mia retpoŝtadreso finiĝi kun "@googlemail.com" [ne ..@gmail.com!])

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MUIRIEL MUIRIEL 24 Medi 2010 24 Medi 2010 am 14:09:43 UTC flag Report link Permalink

*finiĝas

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GrizaLeono GrizaLeono 24 Medi 2010 24 Medi 2010 am 22:11:44 UTC flag Report link Permalink

Mi sendos al vi la adreson, kie vi povos trovi ĝin en interreto kaj mi ankaŭ sendos kopion de la tradukaĵo.

kroko kroko 24 Medi 2010 24 Medi 2010 am 13:57:58 UTC flag Report link Permalink

Koran dankon. Bona ideo estas!
Kompreni la Tatoeba ideon gravas.

MUIRIEL MUIRIEL 24 Medi 2010 24 Medi 2010 am 22:29:47 UTC flag Report link Permalink

Nun estas esperanta traduko de la gvidilo "Kiel bone kunlabori ĉe Tatoeba" (Trang metis la ligilon sur la reto), gratulon al GrizaLeono! La ligilo estas ĉi tie:
https://docs.google.com/documen...Y&hl=en&pli=1#
Disdonu la ĝoja mesaĝon :) !

There's now an esperanto version of the guide of the good contributor thanks to GrizaLeono:
https://docs.google.com/documen...Y&hl=en&pli=1#

MUIRIEL MUIRIEL 29 Medi 2010 29 Medi 2010 am 21:35:40 UTC flag Report link Permalink

Es gibt jetzt auch eine deutsche Version der Anleitung "Wie man ein guter Mitarbeiter wird.":
https://docs.google.com/documen...nEixs7UcNpC55Q

Ich kann nicht dafür garantieren, dass ich sprachlich immer die besten Lösungen gefunden habe - ich bin kein professioneller Übersetzer, aber inhaltlich könnt ihr euch darauf verlassen, da ich schon lange auf Tatoeba aktiv bin und die Regeln gut kenne.
Wenn ihr Fehler findet, könnt ihr mich gerne kontaktieren!

There is now a German version of the guide "How to be a good contributor.

fs fs 29 Medi 2010 29 Medi 2010 am 17:13:38 UTC flag Report link Permalink

(eo)Ofte okazas, ke ĝusta retradukaĵo el iu ĝusta tradukaĵo ne plu egalas al la komenca frazo, sed ja aperas, eble grize, sur ties paĝo.

Tion kaŭzas, interalie, ke diversaj lingvoj ne paralele distingas la alparolatojn. Ekzemple, la Esperanta "vi" aŭ la latina "tu" povas respondi al du formoj en la franca ("tu" kaj "vous"), al kvar en la Hispanuja hispana ("tú", "vosotros", "usted", "ustedes"), al kvar tre kutimaj kaj du pliaj en la hungara ("te", "ti", "maga", "maguk", "Ön", "Önök"), al nenombreble multaj en la vietnama kaj en aliaj lingvoj, en kiuj oni simile anstataŭ pronomojn uzas vortojn kun signifo "frato", "fratino", "frat(in)eto", "avo", "avino", "onklo", "onkleto", k. t. p. Ekzemple, "Li havas sep filojn" povas esti tradukata al la hispana per : "Tiene siete hijos", kiu povus esti tradukata al : "Ŝi havas sep filojn" aŭ al : "Vi havas sep filojn".

Ĉu ni jam havas ian rimedon por tion malhelpi aŭ korekti ? Oni, almenaŭe, devus povi forviŝi tion, kio, pro ŝoviĝo al alia paĝo, ĉesis esti ĝusta.

Simile oni devus povi fari tiam, kiam iu el ni korektis iun frazon sian, sed ne aŭtomate korektiĝis aŭ forviŝiĝis la tradukajhoj faritaj el tiu frazo antaŭ la korektado.


(fr) Il arrive souvent qu'une traduction correcte d'une traduction correcte ne corresponde plus à la phrase de départ, mais apparaisse néanmoins, peut-être en gris, sous celle-ci.

Cela est dû, notamment, à ce que des langues différentes ne distinguent pas d'une façon parallèle les personnes auxquelles on s'adresse. Par exemple, le "vi" de l'espéranto ou le "tu" du latin peuvent correspondre à deux formes du français "tu" ou "vous", à quatre de l'espagnol d'Espagne ("tú", "vosotros", "usted", "ustedes"), à quatre très courantes et à deux autres du hongrois ("te", "ti", "maga", "maguk", "Ön", "Önök"), à d'innombrables mots du vietnamien et d'autres lngues dans lesquelles on emploie semblablement en guise de pronoms des mots signifiant "frère", "sœur", "petit frère ou petite sœur", "grand-père", "grand-mère", "oncle", "petit oncle", etc. Par exemple, "Il a sept fils" peut être traduit en espagnol notamment par : "Tiene siete hijos", qui peut à son tour être traduit par : "Elle a sept fils" ou par : "Vous avez sept fils".

Disposons-nous déjà d'un moyen pour empêcher ou corriger cela ? On devrait au moins pouvoir effacer ce qui, en changeant de page, a cessé d'être exact.

On devrait pouvoir faire de même lorsque, l'un d'entre nous ayant modifié l'une des phrases dont il est le "propriétaire", les traductions faites avant cette correction ne sont pas automatiquement corrigées ou effacées.

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sacredceltic sacredceltic 29 Medi 2010 29 Medi 2010 am 17:31:49 UTC flag Report link Permalink

Dans la structure de Tatoeba, les phrases ne doivent correspondre que 2 à 2 et plusieurs traductions d'une phrase dans la même langue sont admises.
Donc lorsque vous traduisez une phrase, vous ne devez pas tenir compte des autres traductions. Cela ne sert à rien parce que ça n'est pas la structure de Tatoeba, qui permet justement des relations multiples et diverses entre les phrases.
Les liens apparaissant en gris sont des traductions indirectes de la phrase située en tête. Il est normal qu'elles puissent diverger totalement de la phrase de tête, justement par les mécanismes que vous décrivez.
Tout ceci est expliqué en détail dans le guide du contributeur que je vous invite à consulter https://docs8.google.com/docume...YOPdQn4&hl=fr#

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais 27 Medi 2010 27 Medi 2010 am 02:20:18 UTC flag Report link Permalink

Another potentially bad idea...

How about giving contribution points for making links?

Okay, okay, there ARE major drawbacks:

- Careless linking
- Trusted users only
- "Why do we want to encourage contribution points? We're here because we want to contribute, and not because we want to be ranked high on the chart."

But... I do think people care about their contribution points, which is why the ladder exists. Some care more than others. Perhaps if you got 0.1 contribution points for linking a sentence, it would give users greater incentives to spend more time linking and less time creating new sentences.

Anyway, I warned you that this might be a bad idea, but there it is.

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Demetrius Demetrius 29 Medi 2010 29 Medi 2010 am 07:43:56 UTC flag Report link Permalink

IMHO we should pay much more attention to links in general.

There is no information when someone deletes a link, there is no “Recent (Un)linking” page to see them… And no way to see the number of links to the sentences in certain language (it can be a way to motivate people to create new links to promote their language, not create endless duplicates).

IMHO, links are also very important.

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sysko sysko 29 Medi 2010 29 Medi 2010 am 09:53:03 UTC flag Report link Permalink

that's the reason why they're limited to trusted users only, once we will implement all what you've said (and I agree that we need them), the feature will be open to everyone. But you know no time blablabla ... ^^

samueldora samueldora 28 Medi 2010 28 Medi 2010 am 22:52:45 UTC flag Report link Permalink

"Quo vadis?" was automatically identified as polish. Great! This software seems to know Sinkiewicz.

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Pharamp Pharamp 28 Medi 2010 28 Medi 2010 am 23:01:06 UTC flag Report link Permalink

Ahahahah, it's so funny! We spoke about this book at school exactly this morning. You should make a sentence on this funny event ^^

Demetrius Demetrius 29 Medi 2010 29 Medi 2010 am 07:30:40 UTC flag Report link Permalink

“This software” is Google language API. :)

If nothing has changed, Tatoeba uses it for language detection.

Swift Swift 28 Medi 2010 28 Medi 2010 am 11:47:07 UTC flag Report link Permalink

The romaji tool-tip on Japanese sentences ends with "click to learn more" but the link has been removed.

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais 5 Awst 2010 5 Awst 2010 am 12:22:14 UTC flag Report link Permalink

General Question:

What's Tatoeba's official policy on a user's behavior? Specifically, if a user flat out uses insulting names to refer to other users (i.e. calling them dogs), derides them (i.e. by creating a caricature and building on it), and makes fun of them in a way that an immature high schooler would, do the moderators take action or is the user allowed to continue? I don't think this has been addressed at all since the problem hasn't really come up much (if at all) before, but as it has now, it would be nice to hear the official stance on this.

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TRANG TRANG 28 Medi 2010 28 Medi 2010 am 03:46:41 UTC flag Report link Permalink

You can consider this as the official policies:

http://blog.tatoeba.org/2010/09...espectful.html

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MUIRIEL MUIRIEL 28 Medi 2010 28 Medi 2010 am 10:06:19 UTC flag Report link Permalink

Great work, Trang!

keklesurvivant keklesurvivant 28 Medi 2010 28 Medi 2010 am 23:43:05 UTC flag Report link Permalink

Approved :)

blay_paul blay_paul 5 Awst 2010 5 Awst 2010 am 13:06:35 UTC flag Report link Permalink

I don't think there is much official policy yet, but if a user is disruptive _and_ useless I'm sure action would be taken in short order. Otherwise you have to weigh up their contributions against the risk that the feel of the Tatoeba community will be affected enough to discourage other people from taking part.

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sacredceltic sacredceltic 5 Awst 2010 5 Awst 2010 am 15:29:05 UTC flag Report link Permalink

A cheval donné on ne regarde pas la bride !

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blay_paul blay_paul 5 Awst 2010 5 Awst 2010 am 16:58:55 UTC flag Report link Permalink

ただより高いものはない。

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sacredceltic sacredceltic 5 Awst 2010 5 Awst 2010 am 17:03:39 UTC flag Report link Permalink

I pay the fair price...

sacredceltic sacredceltic 5 Awst 2010 5 Awst 2010 am 12:42:17 UTC flag Report link Permalink

and what about the chirpings ?

TRANG TRANG 5 Awst 2010 5 Awst 2010 am 20:11:27 UTC flag Report link Permalink

My current position is that Tatoeba should not get involved in personal conflicts. Unfortunately, we cannot prevent them from happening, but all we can do is to remind people that this is not a warzone, this is not high school, and everyone has to make an effort to behave as a civilized human being.

A few good practices to remember are:
1) To NEVER reply to provocation with more provocation, even if it's tempting.
2) To ALWAYS solve personal conflicts in private, not in public.

We also have to understand that whenever tensions appear, everyone who is part of the conflict has their own responsibility for it. It really makes it easier to solve conflicts when people can, for once, forget about their ego, stop looking at others flaws and instead, look at their own mistakes and admit them.

At any rate, I don't want to threaten people with censorship or punishment, because this is not the solution. Tensions originate first of all from misunderstandings, so the only real solution is to lift up these misunderstandings... which requires an effort of communication.

The best thing moderators can do is point out to rule #14 of the contributors' guide (which I will reformulate to include more thoughts on good behavior).

If despite of everything, someone wants to continue insulting other members, well... Technically they can. But socially, they can't. Because by doing so, they will generate a terrible image of themselves, they will lose everyone's respect and they will be completely ignored since no one will want to waste time talking to them. I don't think anyone in their right mind would want to end up like that...

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais 27 Medi 2010 27 Medi 2010 am 16:00:23 UTC flag Report link Permalink

Has anyone else seen this?

http://www.dailymotion.com/vide...oject-bug_tech

I laughed.

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blay_paul blay_paul 27 Medi 2010 27 Medi 2010 am 18:06:07 UTC flag Report link Permalink

You. Are. Never. Alone.

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FeuDRenais FeuDRenais 27 Medi 2010 27 Medi 2010 am 18:08:34 UTC flag Report link Permalink

On an unrelated note, we now know that he DOES read all of his messages (even though he doesn't reply :-)

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Demetrius Demetrius 28 Medi 2010 28 Medi 2010 am 18:03:22 UTC flag Report link Permalink

boracasli put it there to show sysko on the IRC a week or two ago.

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FeuDRenais FeuDRenais 28 Medi 2010 28 Medi 2010 am 18:45:48 UTC flag Report link Permalink

The dramatic music is a nice touch though.