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Muro (5 770 fadenoj)

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deniko deniko antaŭ 20 tagoj 2020-marto-16 09:37 link permalink

Will the new design for the sentences eventually replace the old design for everyone, or will the old design be kept as an option, as it is now?

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gillux gillux antaŭ 20 tagoj 2020-marto-16 11:04 link permalink

There will be a period of transition, but sooner or later we will get rid of the old design entirely.

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deniko deniko antaŭ 20 tagoj, modifita antaŭ 20 tagoj 2020-marto-16 11:06, modifita 2020-marto-16 11:07 link permalink

Thanks for replying. Sad news, I guess.

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gillux gillux antaŭ 20 tagoj 2020-marto-16 11:27 link permalink

Are you being melancholic?

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deniko deniko antaŭ 20 tagoj 2020-marto-16 11:31 link permalink

You can put it like this, if you wish. The new design is terrible and clumsy to use. I'd hate to have it, but, obviously, we won't have a choice, which I accept.

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Aiji Aiji antaŭ 20 tagoj 2020-marto-16 12:29 link permalink

Well, you could explain what is terrible and clumsy to use, and we could see how things can be improved, as a first step :)

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deniko deniko antaŭ 20 tagoj, modifita antaŭ 19 tagoj 2020-marto-16 14:06, modifita 2020-marto-16 16:10 link permalink

1. By default, some translations are hidden in the new design and I need to click "Show N more translations" every time in my search results:

https://i.imgur.com/YyBRn8s.png

It is very annoying and very counterproductive. I do understand why someone might have this preference, but can we make it optional? Create another checkbox - "Expand all the translations". By default, if the user doesn't bother to change it, the sentences will be displayed as they're displayed now, but some of us can make it more comfortable for us.

I am aware you can permanently limit yourself to just a bunch of languages in your profile, and this issue will become less important, but I'm going to do it because I enjoy being able to see all the translations.

EDIT: I'm also aware of this setting:

"Display a link to expand/collapse translations when there are too many translations"

But it seems to be working for the old format only. I guess if you make it work for the new and the old format, that would resolve this problem.

2. The second thing that bothers me A LOT are the words "Translations" and "Translations of Translations":

https://i.imgur.com/rZCd1yi.png

I understand why they are there - a lot of users, especially the non-regulars or the relatively new contributors are confused by the whole idea of "gray" links and report the indirect translations as wrong while they're not wrong, they're just translations of translations and they don't have to match the "original" exactly. But for more experienced folks who understand and embrace the concept of indirect translations those words are just a nuisance, completely unnecessary information in words that can be perfectly color-coded. Could we optionally remove those words, leaving them there by default?

3. A less important issue - the new format is just less compact than the old one. Compare (this is the same sentence with the same translations):

https://i.imgur.com/4yuO9YJ.png

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Aiji Aiji antaŭ 19 tagoj 2020-marto-17 00:55 link permalink

Thank you for your always useful feedback. :)

Well, I don't think there is so many terrible things there!
1. This setting needs improvement. Notice that the new design isn't complete yet so functionalities may be behave incorrectly or be missing. Even after the new design implementation, that might still be the case and we hope we can count on people's feedback to correct and improve them. As gillux mentioned, there will be a transition period, but the old design will only disappear when we will be absolutely sure that nothing's gone missing in the new design.

2. That's your personal opinion, so there isn't much to say. I can't say two. The first one is that of course, we can discuss that point. The second is that I'm not sure for how long you've been using the new design, but maybe after a while, you'll get used to it and those words won't bother you anymore. Once you're used to the new design, they might get easily ignored by your brain.
You also mentioned color-coded sentences. That's is also currently under discussion.

3. Yeah, I've noticed that too. Now, we need more scrolling. Not a really impacting issue, but it has been reported.

I hope I could answer your points clearly.

As a final, more general, note, change is always a difficult thing, and we expect a lot of complaints from a lot of people. However, if people could start by "here what I like and dislike now" before the "this crap is terrible", that would be appreciated and we would be able to discuss with a better set of mind. Thanks.

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deniko deniko antaŭ 19 tagoj 2020-marto-17 10:24 link permalink

Hi Aiji,

I really hope you're not part of the development team, or at least not a decision maker of what will be implemented or not.

Your smug, dismissive and passive-aggressive way of dealing with our concerns is not ideal.

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Aiji Aiji antaŭ 19 tagoj 2020-marto-17 12:22 link permalink

Your active-aggressive way of expressing your concerns wasn't ideal either.

Now, I hope I could give you an overview of what was currently being discussed on GitHub (mainly) and that a part of your concerns were already discussed or will be, and if my answer seemed too aggressive, I apologize. My thanks for your feedback were sincere, as I think you're one of those who very often gives precious information regarding how we could improve things.

AntonKhorev AntonKhorev antaŭ 20 tagoj 2020-marto-16 11:53 link permalink

How do I get specific languages to be above "show more"? Do I need now either to always click "show more" or to hide most of the languages completely?

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Aiji Aiji antaŭ 20 tagoj 2020-marto-16 12:33 link permalink

You can deactivate this link in your settings: https://tatoeba.org/eng/user/settings

If you want it activated but would appreciate it to behave differently, please elaborate on what you would like to have and *why*.

From the same settings page, you can also choose a list of languages to only display sentences in those languages (all others will be hidden).

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AntonKhorev AntonKhorev antaŭ 20 tagoj 2020-marto-16 15:52 link permalink

If I choose a list of languages, all other languages will be completely hidden. They won't be displayed if I click "show more". Here are my options if I don't hide languages completely:

Best option (not available) - show my preferred languages first; if there's a lot of translations, put everything else under "show more".

Worse (old design) - show everything; it's up to me to find sentences in my preferred languages among all others

Even worse (new design) - hide some translations no matter if they are in my preferred languages or not; I have to always click "show more" and then do everything I had to do in the previous option, so it's more work. Also, the list takes more space.

As noted above by deniko, it's impossible to disable "show more" in the new design. But even if it would have been possible, new design would still be worse for sentences with many translations.

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deniko deniko antaŭ 19 tagoj, modifita antaŭ 19 tagoj 2020-marto-16 16:15, modifita 2020-marto-16 16:21 link permalink

> Best option (not available) - show my preferred languages first; if there's a lot of translations, put everything else under "show more".

That would actually be a cool solution. Thanks for this idea.

I would still prefer to be able to expand the sentences by default without clicking, but if you can actually list the languages that you want to be displayed first that would really be awesome. And would be cool if you can specify the order in which they're displayed.

For example, if I specify

eng,spa,fra,ita

In my profile, I would see the translations in those languages in that order, and only after those 4 languages I'd see all the other translations in their default (alphabetical, according to the language code) order.

The existing solution of completely hiding all the other languages is just not satisfying at all, at least for me.

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marafon marafon antaŭ 19 tagoj 2020-marto-16 18:18 link permalink

I agree with Denis and Anton. The new design is extremely frustrating.

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TRANG TRANG antaŭ 19 tagoj 2020-marto-16 18:32 link permalink

Is it for the same reasons as them or do you have other reasons?

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marafon marafon antaŭ 19 tagoj 2020-marto-16 18:36 link permalink

The reasons are the same. They described them very well and I have nothing to add so far.

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TRANG TRANG antaŭ 19 tagoj 2020-marto-16 18:40 link permalink

Then please see my reply to deniko below.
https://tatoeba.org/eng/wall/sh...#message_34492

I have the same questions for you as I have for deniko.

Most importantly the last question:
> Could you provide a scenario of your activities in Tatoeba that can make
> us understand "Okay, indeed, if the translations were not expanded by
> default, it would be annoying"?

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marafon marafon antaŭ 18 tagoj, modifita antaŭ 18 tagoj 2020-marto-17 18:03, modifita 2020-marto-17 23:49 link permalink

When I see a sentence in a foreign language I know, first of all I look whether it has already been translated into Russian or not.
If yes, I proofread the existing Russian translation(s) (not only for translation accuracy but also for punctuation, spelling and grammar). Sometimes I add my own translation(s) as well.
If not, I add one or several Russian translations.
If I see that my newly added sentences can be linked to the existing translations in the other foreign languages I know, I do it right away or later from this page:
https://tatoeba.org/rus/activit...ces_of/marafon
Besides that, I check the indirect Russian translations and link them to the main sentence if they match.
I also check the indirect translations in the other languages. Sometimes it helps me find some linking errors like this one:
https://tatoeba.org/rus/sentenc...omment-1165179
Just looking at the indirect link here:
https://tatoeba.org/rus/sentences/show/5918489
helped me find this error.
I'm also interested in some languages that are not listed in my profile. For instance, I enjoy seeing the Ukrainian, Czech or Italian translations.

It's just one of my activities in Tatoeba. I'm not sure I described it well enough but I hope it helps you understand why I find the new design and particularly the button "Show more" so frustrating.

I used to love the random sentence on the main page. But not anymore.

p.s.
> Now it works super weird - I add
> 3 Ukrainian translations out of habit, only to realize 20 seconds later
> it already had Ukrainian translations, they were just hidden.

That was my experience, too.

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TRANG TRANG antaŭ 18 tagoj 2020-marto-17 20:13 link permalink

I created the following issue on GitHub:
https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/2210

If you were able to increase the limit of translations that you can see, what would be your limit? Would it be higher than 50?

On a side note, your description actually brings up other fundamental issues in the overall design of Tatoeba. It's a problem with the way Tatoeba is structured and organized. But addressing that problem is a whole other story so I won't delve into the details here.

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marafon marafon antaŭ 18 tagoj 2020-marto-17 20:19 link permalink

50 would be enough, I think.

marafon marafon antaŭ 18 tagoj, modifita antaŭ 18 tagoj 2020-marto-17 21:23, modifita 2020-marto-18 02:07 link permalink

Btw, now I don't see the way to link the indirect translations to the main sentence. That's what I used to do all the time.

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TRANG TRANG antaŭ 18 tagoj 2020-marto-17 21:30 link permalink

The linking feature has not been implemented yet in the new sentence design.

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marafon marafon antaŭ 18 tagoj 2020-marto-17 21:46 link permalink

OK

PaulP PaulP antaŭ 18 tagoj 2020-marto-18 11:26 link permalink

And also the feature of reviewing?

Here an example:

https://tatoeba.org/epo/sentences/show/8604386

This sentence has been corrected, so my review has to be changed from red to green. For doing this I need to switch back to the old design, no?

Sorry if that has been answered before. I didn’t see it.

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Ricardo14 Ricardo14 antaŭ 18 tagoj 2020-marto-18 15:07 link permalink

That will be implemented later :)

TRANG TRANG antaŭ 19 tagoj 2020-marto-16 18:29 link permalink

> Best option (not available) - show my preferred languages first;

A similar idea has been mentioned before:
https://github.com/Tatoeba/tato...ment-505311261

Additionally there has been some debate regarding the order in which translations should be displayed:
https://github.com/Tatoeba/tato...ment-577132284

> And would be cool if you can specify the order in which they're displayed.

That's also my opinion.

Based on the various discussions on GitHub, it became quite clear that we need to provide a better way for users to define the languages they want to see in Tatoeba and what is the priority of each language.

I'm still wondering however what is your use case for preferring to have all translations displayed by default. Do you confirm that it is because most of the time, the translations you are interested in are not displayed at the top? Or is there another reason?

Also, which of your activities does it affect the most? Is it slowing you down for translating sentences? For linking sentences? For proofreading? For something else?

Could you provide a scenario of your activities in Tatoeba that can make us understand "Okay, indeed, if the translations were not expanded by default, it would be annoying"? Right now I must say I can't imagine this scenario.

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Thanuir Thanuir antaŭ 19 tagoj 2020-marto-17 05:53 link permalink

Joskus, yksinkertaisten lauseiden tapauksessa, löydän uusia kieliä joita voin linkittää. Esimerkiksi suomalais-ugrilaisten kielten numerot ovat hyvin samanlaisia, enkä tiennyt niistä kaikista ennen kuin selasin kielilistaa läpi sen lauseen kohdalla, joka listaa numerot ykkösestä kymmeneen.

Samoin olen joskus linkittänyt satunnaisen latinankielisen lauseen, vaikka en suuremmin latinaa osaakaan, jos olen sattunut tietämään mitä se tarkoittaa.

Usein selatessani Tatoebaa luen lauseita kielillä, joita en osaa tarkasti, saadakseni tuntumaa niihin ja kenties oppiakseni jotain. Tämä kattaa monet romaaniset ja germaaniset kielet, suomalais-ugrilaiset kielet ja latinan. En osaa kääntää näistä tai edes lukea näitä itsenäisesti ja näiden näkemin on huomattavasti vähemmän tärkeää kuin niiden kielten, joita osaan jonkin verran.

deniko deniko antaŭ 19 tagoj 2020-marto-17 10:09 link permalink

> Also, which of your activities does it affect the most? Is it slowing you down for translating sentences? For linking sentences? For proofreading? For something else?

Linking mostly, not proofreading.

When I link, just browse through Ukrainian sentence using the search feature to give me random sentences, and link them to all sentences they can be linked directly.

Also, when I stumble upon some interesting expression I really like searching for it here and check out translations to all languages I kind of understand, even those not listed in my profile just because I'm curious. I'd say that activity is very important for me.

Also, I used to enjoy having the random sentence on the main page. I don't know why, but I've always thought it to be a fascinating feature. I've stumbled upon some real gems there a few times, something I would have never found if I was trying to search for something. I would occasionally translate them. Now it works super weird - I add 3 Ukrainian translations out of habit, only to realize 20 seconds later it already had Ukrainian translations, they were just hidden. I turned on the random sentence because all this was very annoying.

So, in general, I understand why someone might prefer the new format, and I understand why you would prefer this to be the default format for the unregistered users and the default format for everyone else, but I kindly ask either to leave the old format for us, or at least add t those two features as optional features:

1. Expand them automatically, if my settings say so.
2. Remove the words "Translations" and "Translations of translations" as completely unnecessary and distracting (again, leave them there by default, but please allow us to get rid of them).

Everything else doesn't really bother me too much. Making the new format more compact or dense is nice, but not really a deal-breaker. Same about the feature mentioned by Anton - allow users to configure which translations to display first. That's a cool feature, I'd love to have it, but purely psychologically I feel like it's less important for me.

One thing to get a cool new feature - yeah, that's nice, but I understand why it's not there - another thing - taking a nicely functioning design and breaking it to something barely functional - that feels bad, like a giant step back.

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Thanuir Thanuir antaŭ 19 tagoj 2020-marto-17 10:36 link permalink

Olen samaa mieltä kohdan 1 ja motivaation kanssa.

Kohta 2 olisi myös minulle parempi, mutta toisaalta ylimääräisten sanojen aiheuttama harmi on hyvin pientä, ja liika valinnaisuus käyttäjillä aiheuttaa kasvavaa työtaakkaa ohjelmoijille. Niinpä ehdotan, että vaikka tiiviimpi käyttöliittymä olisi mukavampi, ei ehdotus kaksi luultavasti ole pitemmässä juoksussa toteuttamisen arvoinen.

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deniko deniko antaŭ 19 tagoj 2020-marto-17 10:49 link permalink

Thanks, Thanuir, you can be right about point 2, but I just feel they take space and they don't do anything useful for the experienced users. The direct and indirect links are already colorcoded by the color of the arrows (or > in the new design). It feels right to use words where they belong, for the important information - the sentences themselves - and icons and other mnemonics for technical information and actions.

All that feels consistent.

Now, using words to distinguish direct and indirect links just seems to be very inconsistent and it makes me uncomfortable. I will absolutely get used to the less compact design, but I just liked the consistency of everything else.

While this might be way less important for others, I still feel like it's something easy to implement and hopefully I won't be the only one who chooses to opt out from seeing the words "Translations" and "Translations of Translations".

I wonder whether I can join the development team just for this single task? I'm a software developer by profession, after all, although I do lack any web-development experience.

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TRANG TRANG antaŭ 19 tagoj 2020-marto-17 12:28 link permalink

> I wonder whether I can join the development team just for this single
> task? I'm a software developer by profession, after all, although I do lack
> any web-development experience.

Tatoeba is open source. You (and anyone) can make a pull request on GitHub.

Please see our guide for people who want to contribute as developers:
https://github.com/Tatoeba/tato...as-a-developer

TRANG TRANG antaŭ 19 tagoj 2020-marto-17 13:42 link permalink

You can by the way use the Stylish add-on to make some readjustment of the UI to better suit your personal needs.

https://userstyles.org/

You would need to know CSS, but hiding certain elements or making the UI more compact would be totally possible with Stylish.

You can find various styles that people already created for Tatoeba in the Stylish website, by searching "tatoeba":
https://userstyles.org/styles/b...eba&type=false

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deniko deniko antaŭ 19 tagoj, modifita antaŭ 19 tagoj 2020-marto-17 14:44, modifita 2020-marto-17 14:48 link permalink

> You can by the way use the Stylish add-on to make some readjustment of the UI to better suit your personal needs.

Thanks, that actually sounds cool. CK also mentioned Stylish to me today, so I guess I'll give it a whirl.

TRANG TRANG antaŭ 19 tagoj 2020-marto-17 12:24 link permalink

Just to be clear, I was not asking you those questions in defense for keeping the new design as it is. We will always try our best to provide the best possible user experience for everyone. But to do so, we need to understand how people use Tatoeba.

Users tend to go straight off saying "I would like things to be this way" or "Is is possible to implement this", but that is not helpful to us. We don't make changes just because someone prefers things to be a certain way.

Unless you are a trained UX/UI designer, you will not necessarily think of the best possible solution for a UI problem. You will suggest solutions based on your own habits and your own biases and the things you suggest may have a negative impacts on others without you realizing it.

The best thing you can do to help us provide you, and everyone, the best possible user experience, is to describe how you use Tatoeba, a little like you are telling a story. You can always provide a solution, but without the story behind it, it doesn't help us figure out the best course of action. That's what my questions were aimed to do: to extract this story.

Now more concretely, you shared this bit of story:

> I've stumbled upon some real gems there a few times, something
> I would have never found if I was trying to search for something.
> I would occasionally translate them. Now it works super weird - I add
> 3 Ukrainian translations out of habit, only to realize 20 seconds later
> it already had Ukrainian translations, they were just hidden.

So this is useful information to me. It is a lot more useful than hearing you say you want to be able to have all translations expanded by default.

It explains why you prefer to have the translations expanded and it also explains why you prefer to have a more compact design. And it helps me understand where precisely are the problems.

Now what I can say is that having the translations expanded by default isn't great if you have tons of translations. The more translations, the more effort for you to spot the existing Ukrainian translations.

For that specific problem that you described, a better solution, in my opinion, would be that whenever you select the translation language, it displays the existing translations in that language.

Having all translations expanded does solve that problem but it is not a solution that will scale in the long run. It works only because at the moment, most sentences don't have more than 10 translations.

But one day, if Tatoeba continues to grow (which I hope it will), we may have 100+ translations on the majority of the sentences, and displaying them all is not exactly usable. There's still time until we get to that point, which means if expanding all translations is the cheapest solution, we can still go for that solution. But that shouldn't stop us from trying to figure out better ones.

For instance we could make an option to allow users to choose how many translations are displayed by default. We chose 5 arbitrarily, but some people like you may need this limit to be higher, perhaps up to 20 or 50 even. We have a similar option for the number of sentences per page (we chose to have 10 by default, but users are able to increase it up to 100). I think that would be longer-term solution than keeping the "expand all translations" option.

CK CK antaŭ 18 tagoj 2020-marto-18 04:05 link permalink

These have all been updated using last Saturday's exported data.

Bilingual Sentence Pairs
http://www.manythings.org/bilingual/

Tab-delimited Bilingual Sentence Pairs
http://www.manythings.org/anki/

Audio Sentence Player
http://www.manythings.org/sentences/audioplayer/


Thanks to everyone who has helped by translating sentences on List 907 into your own native languages.

About List 907
http://tatoeba.ueuo.com/about907.html

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Pandaa Pandaa antaŭ 18 tagoj 2020-marto-18 07:06 link permalink

Why 907? What's its meaning?

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Ricardo14 Ricardo14 antaŭ 18 tagoj 2020-marto-18 08:53 link permalink

It's the number of the list.

All the lists has an unique ID (just note the last part of them which you'll find some numbers). That list's ID is 907.

gillux gillux antaŭ 20 tagoj, modifita antaŭ 20 tagoj 2020-marto-16 11:18, modifita 2020-marto-16 11:24 link permalink

What’s New on Tatoeba? - Your weekly recap #8


UPDATES

The highlight of this update is about the new design. What we call the "new design" is an ongoing project that aims to make Tatoeba usable on mobile, generally more attractive and to solve a number of bugs inherent to the current design. We thought this new design is getting mature enough to be used by a broader audience, and we’d like to gather more real-life feedback from our community. That’s why this update introduces a message over the random sentence block to more proactively suggest trying it out.

Over the last months, Trang has been working very hard on porting features from the old design to the new design, including the "Add a translation" and "Add to list" sentence buttons, and individual lists pages. Thanks to her for the implementation, to gillux and rumpelstilzchen for code reviewing, to everyone who have been testing and sending us feedback, and to Mozilla for financing us. Constructive feedback about the new design is very welcome.

Other than that:

• Every wall post now have a "Send message" button to easily send a private message to the poster. Thanks to Aiji for the suggestion and implementation.

• The default sort order of the "View all tags" page has been fixed. Thanks to CK for reporting the problem and gillux for fixing it.

• A bug that prevented guests from playing audio on indirect translations has been discovered and fixed by gillux.

• rumpelstilzchen and gillux did some cleanup in the code base. This maintenance work is invisible to users, but it always feels nice for current and future developers to work in a clean place, doesn’t it?


ON THE WALL

• CK started a discussion about translations in the same language as original, which turned into a debate about corpus diversity: https://tatoeba.org/fra/wall/show_message/34400

• Thanuir posted a proposal about reviewing sentences in a way that would allow regular members to better contribute to the proofreading effort: https://tatoeba.org/fra/wall/show_message/34378


CONTRIBUTIONS AND LANGUAGES

• 12,207 sentences have been contributed last week.

• A new language was added: Jewish Babylonian Aramaic. This brings the number of supported languages to 351! Thanks to shekitten for requesting the language and providing the flag, gillux for reviewing and Ricardo14 for coordinating.

• Some of our members helped translating the website (crediting using Transifex usernames):
• In Swedish: ajje
• In Norwegian: vikvaering
• In Kirundi: dorée
• In French: Rockaround, RyckRichards, gillux and sacredceltic
• In Spanish: arh
• In Gronings: MarijnKp
• In Portuguese: RyckRichards
• In Russian: fjay69 and sharptoothed
• In Turkish: Gulo_Luscus
• In German: Pfirsichbäumchen
• In Breton: Iriep
• In Esperanto: PaulP
• In Finnish: Silja and Thanuir
• In Italian: Guybrush88
• In Dutch: 58karel and michel.smts2
• In Interligua: shekitten
• In Hungarian: Wydy99
• In Marathi: sabretou
• In Japanese: small_snow

Thank you very much everybody! You too can help us translate the website to your language by joining us on Transifex: https://www.transifex.com/tatoe...ite/dashboard/ and check this article on the wiki https://en.wiki.tatoeba.org/art...ce-translation

If you’re especially happy with something, don’t hesitate to personally thank people who participated in this update. Most of us are working in the shadow but we are always glad to hear your feedback.

-------------

Fun fact: if we compress the history of the universe (from the big bang to now) into one year, the History as we know it spans for less than 30 seconds: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_Calendar

Last week recap: https://tatoeba.org/fra/wall/show_message/34374
See this recap on the blog: https://blog.tatoeba.org/2020/0...ecap-8_16.html

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Ricardo14 Ricardo14 antaŭ 19 tagoj, modifita antaŭ 19 tagoj 2020-marto-17 04:21, modifita 2020-marto-17 10:21 link permalink

As a side note, I'd like to *thank everyone* who joined us on Transifex and everyone who have been translating Tatoeba UI already!

Aiji Aiji antaŭ 19 tagoj 2020-marto-17 06:59 link permalink

Thanks for the recap !

Some interesting info in there :)

CK CK antaŭ 19 tagoj 2020-marto-17 02:04 link permalink

* A Suggested Improvement to the Advanced Search **

Currently, "has audio" has 3 options--any, no, yes

I think it would be useful to add another option to show sentences with audio first (if any), followed by those that don't.

Do other members think this might be a good idea?

If so, I'll add this as a GitHub issue.


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Aiji Aiji antaŭ 19 tagoj 2020-marto-17 04:23 link permalink

I think you already opened a ticket https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/1014

More generally, this reasoning can be applied to other yes / no options as well.

Thanuir Thanuir antaŭ 19 tagoj 2020-marto-17 05:58 link permalink

Tämä olisi hyödyllistä (myös kaikkien muiden laatuehtojen tapauksessa).

Hybrid Hybrid antaŭ 20 tagoj, modifita antaŭ 20 tagoj 2020-marto-15 17:18, modifita 2020-marto-15 17:30 link permalink

Hi,

In the new design, could we get an option to add a tag? This tag would not disappear after adding the sentence, so I could add many sentences with the same tag.

Thank you,
Hybrid

Also, it would be even better if we could have a checkbox on the right when looking at our list of sentences (https://tatoeba.org/eng/activit...es_of/Hybrid). This checkbox could be used to add tags to many sentences, or to move many of them to a list. There should also be a "select all" button at the top. Gmail has this feature.

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TRANG TRANG antaŭ 20 tagoj 2020-marto-15 21:13 link permalink

Could you give examples tags that you want to apply on a sentence upon creation and tags you want to apply from the page listing your sentences?

The request to be able to tag more easily isn't new but it helps to have a more concrete idea of what you are using tags for.

Some related GitHub issues:
https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/1962
https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/1923

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Hybrid Hybrid antaŭ 20 tagoj 2020-marto-15 22:23 link permalink

Thank you for replying. For example, I want to add tags like: "by VOAnews", "by Arthur Conan Doyle", "by NASA" or "by Lucy Maud Montgomery". These are the tags I want to add in both cases. Right now it takes longer to tag sentences from VOAnews than to add them, so I've stopped tagging them.

Thank you,
Hybrid

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Aiji Aiji antaŭ 20 tagoj 2020-marto-16 04:07 link permalink

As a side note, you could use a list to keep track of sentences you want to tag later, when a more convenient way will be available. The roles of tags and lists are quite different but it's easier to add sentences to list for now. Once a new way of adding tags will be implemented, you could massively tag your list and delete it.

gillux gillux antaŭ 20 tagoj 2020-marto-16 11:33 link permalink

What if we had a page similar to the current "add sentences to a list" but for tags? I mean a page that allows you to choose one or more tags, and then create as many sentences as you want. The sentences created from that page would automatically be tagged upon creation.

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Ricardo14 Ricardo14 antaŭ 20 tagoj 2020-marto-16 11:56 link permalink

It would help a loooot!

Hybrid Hybrid antaŭ 19 tagoj 2020-marto-17 00:14 link permalink

Hi gillux,

That's very similar to what I proposed. It would help.

Ricardo14 Ricardo14 antaŭ 24 tagoj 2020-marto-12 01:17 link permalink

Note to the UI translators:

New strings have been added on Transifex and are available to be translated.
In order to do so, please follow this link: https://www.transifex.com/tatoe...ite/dashboard/

In case you never translated the UI (user interface) and would like to help, please leave me a private message - https://tatoeba.org/eng/private...rite/Ricardo14

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Ricardo14 Ricardo14 antaŭ 22 tagoj, modifita antaŭ 21 tagoj 2020-marto-13 19:32, modifita 2020-marto-14 16:26 link permalink

The following languages got the language "ready for use" status (got all the strings translated) as for today (March 13, 2020):

✔️ Breton
✔️ Dutch
✔️ Esperanto
✔️ German
✔️ Portuguese
✔️ Turkish

Update: The following languages got the "ready for use" status as for today (March 14, 2020):

✔️ Russian
✔️ Spanish

Source: https://www.transifex.com/tatoe...ite/dashboard/

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Ricardo14 Ricardo14 antaŭ 21 tagoj 2020-marto-15 09:33 link permalink

Update (March 15, 2020 6:30 a.m. BRT (GMT -3))

The following language got the "ready for use status":

✔️ Finnish

:D

Ricardo14 Ricardo14 antaŭ 20 tagoj 2020-marto-16 13:00 link permalink

Update (March 16, 2020 10:00 a.m. BRT (GMT -3))

The following languages got the "ready for use status":

✔️ French
✔️ Italian

:D

PaulP PaulP antaŭ 22 tagoj 2020-marto-14 15:17 link permalink

Ricardo, you are aware that UI translators automatically get a message from Transifex when sentences have been added, no?

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Thanuir Thanuir antaŭ 22 tagoj, modifita antaŭ 22 tagoj 2020-marto-14 15:42, modifita 2020-marto-14 15:42 link permalink

Tämä lienee valinnaista, koska minä en saa viestejä sieltä. (En niitä kaipaakaan.)

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PaulP PaulP antaŭ 22 tagoj 2020-marto-14 15:46 link permalink

Tio estas ebla. Tion mi ne sciis. Pardonu.

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TRANG TRANG antaŭ 21 tagoj 2020-marto-14 16:04 link permalink

You have a point though. Anyone who is a translator on Transifex could make sure to have the proper notifications enabled in Transifex, if they want to be informed whenever new strings are uploaded.

There would then be no real need to make such announcements on the Wall.

ajje ajje antaŭ 21 tagoj 2020-marto-14 21:24 link permalink

How come there is no support for spell-check in the "Add new sentences" field?

When I supply translations to the sentence (or writing this text), it is possible to have the spellchecker on but not when adding sentences. I think adding this feature would help tremendously with raising the standard of the contributions.

By the way, I use Firefox, don't know if that has anything to do with it.

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AlanF_US AlanF_US antaŭ 21 tagoj, modifita antaŭ 21 tagoj 2020-marto-14 23:22, modifita 2020-marto-14 23:29 link permalink

Apparently, Firefox's spellchecker only executes for text fields that are more than one line long. This would explain the behavior you're seeing.

https://support.mozilla.org/en-...-spell-checker

I'm not sure whether it's feasible for us to make the "Add new sentences" field more than one line long. You could try using a spellchecker add-on rather than the default one that comes with Firefox. Or you could try using a different web browser. Or you could try both. Maybe those add-on tools don't limit spellchecking to fields that are more than one line long.

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ajje ajje antaŭ 21 tagoj 2020-marto-14 23:35 link permalink

Yeah, I tried now with Safari and it works fine. I might actually switch to Safari as my Tatoeba browser since it detects the language automatically so there's less hassle when changing input language.

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AlanF_US AlanF_US antaŭ 21 tagoj 2020-marto-15 00:21 link permalink

That's good.

soliloquist soliloquist antaŭ 21 tagoj 2020-marto-15 12:21 link permalink

> How come there is no support for spell-check in the "Add new sentences" field?

I couldn't reproduce it. Both English and Turkish spellcheckers seem to work fine on Firefox 74.

https://streamable.com/7ov6p

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ajje ajje antaŭ 21 tagoj 2020-marto-15 14:59 link permalink

Wow, you're right. For some reason the "Check Spelling" was deactivated by default.

Either way, I think I'll still stick to Safari. As I mentioned earlier it automatically detects the language so I don't have to manually switch back and forth between languages. Thank you for shedding light on this matter!

deniko deniko antaŭ 22 tagoj, modifita antaŭ 22 tagoj 2020-marto-13 17:16, modifita 2020-marto-13 17:16 link permalink

I wonder whether this account has been hacked.

vikvaering

Their today's English sentences are very weird, nothing like they used to add in the past.

https://tatoeba.org/eng/activit..._of/vikvaering

They all call certain people fascists, if you google those people's names they seem to be related to Algeria/Kabyle, and this looks like an attempt to push some agenda and not to contribute to the tatoeba's corpus - like to associate certain people with the term "fascist" in the search engines.

A few people do something like that here, I believe, but this case seems to be isolated because the person has no connections with Algeria and that's why I believe the account has been hacked.

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deniko deniko antaŭ 22 tagoj 2020-marto-13 17:19 link permalink

I forgot to tag @vikvaering just in case I'm wrong and they have really added those sentences themselves.

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vikvaering vikvaering antaŭ 22 tagoj 2020-marto-13 19:21 link permalink

I added those sentences.

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shekitten shekitten antaŭ 22 tagoj 2020-marto-14 10:51 link permalink

So, what was the intention? To make the word "fascist" positive?

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vikvaering vikvaering antaŭ 22 tagoj 2020-marto-14 11:41 link permalink

Nope.

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Silja Silja antaŭ 22 tagoj 2020-marto-14 12:18 link permalink

So, please then enlighten us and tell us what is your purpose.

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vikvaering vikvaering antaŭ 22 tagoj 2020-marto-14 14:05 link permalink

I felt like it.

Aiji Aiji antaŭ 22 tagoj, modifita antaŭ 22 tagoj 2020-marto-14 14:12, modifita 2020-marto-14 14:12 link permalink

My guess is that's just a mix of answering what happened there #8603765, and people being selfish pri... I mean, enjoying their freedom :) Nothing new under the sun, off we go.

Thanuir Thanuir antaŭ 27 tagoj 2020-marto-09 12:43 link permalink

*Ehdotus eli unelma joustavammasta Tatoebasta*

Tällä hetkellä Tatoeban käyttö perustuu oikeuksiin ja luotettavuuteen. Kun joku on osoittanut ymmärtävänsä verkkosivua ja sen yhteisöä tarpeeksi hyvin, hän saa lisää oikeuksia (tunnisteiden lisäys ja omien poisto, linkkien lisäys ja poisto, jne.). Toisaalta, kun joku käyttää oikeuksiaan, muut eivät saa siitä mitään ilmoituksia.

Asiaa voi ajatella niinkin, että oikeudet ovat ehdottomia – kun pystyt tekemään jotain, sinun oletetaan käyttävän valtaasi hyvin.

Toinen mahdollinen lähestymistapa olisi mahdollistaa ehdotukset järjestelmän sisällä tai puitteissa. Tällä hetkellä ehdotukset tapahtuvat vapaamuotoisten keskusteluiden ja kommenttien kautta, ja mikäli lauseen omistaja ei toimi, joku enemmän oikeuksia omaava saattaa toimia hänen sijastaan. Tämä toimii, kunhan aktiivisten oikeuksia omaavien käyttäjien määrä on riittävä suhteessa keskuteluiden ja uusien lauseiden määrään, mikä ei välttämättä ole totta pienten kielten tai englannin tapauksessa.

Entäpä jos ihmiset saisivat automaattisesti (lisättyään tietyn määrän lauseita, jotka ovat saaneet hyväksynnän jonkun mittarin mukaisesti, esimerkiksi) tai pyynnöstä oikeuden ehdottaa muutoksia? Muutokset menisivät sitten jonoon, jossa lauseen/linkin/tunnisteen omistaja tai korkeamman asteen käyttäjä voisi ne hyväksyä tai hylätä. Jos riittävän moni käyttäjä ehdottaisi samaa muutosta, voisi se tapahtua automaattisesti. Tai jos omistaja ei kahden viikon kuluessa toimisi, voisi muutos tapahtua automaattisesti. Yksityiskohtaisia malleja on monia.

Kommentteja ja keskusteluita voisi edelleen käyttää kuten aiemmin – jos et ole varma muutosehdotuksestasi, tai jos mielestäsi pätevä ehdotus hylätään, tms.

----

Esimerkkejä:

Huomaat lauseessa kirjoitusvirheen. Ehdotat korjausta. Lauseen omistaja ei ole enää aktiivisena, mutta toinen käyttäjä huomaa ehdotuksesi ja tukee sitä. Kahden viikon kuluessa ei ole tapahtunut mitään muuta, joten muutos tapahtuu.

Huomaat linkit kahden lauseen välillä, mutta lauseet tarkoittavat eri asioita. Ehdotat linkin poistoa. Linkin omistaja (lisännyt henkilö) on eri mieltä, ja kieltää ehdotuksen. Linkki pysyy paikoillaan, mutta saat viestin siitä, että ehdotuksesi hylättiin. Viestin takia aloitat keskustelun linkin luoneen henkilön kanssa.

----

Toimiakseen tämä vaatisi paljon ohjelmointityötä. Ilmeisten käyttöliittymäseikkojen lisäksi vaadittaisiin sisäinen lista ehdotuksista. Kenties sähköpostiin voisi tulla viikottainen tai päivittäinen tiivistelmä, joka kertoisi, että sinulla on niin ja niin monta muutosehdotusta lauseisiin, niin ja niin monta ehdotettua poistettavaa tunnistetta, jne. Kenties sama viesti listaisi, että omista ehdotuksistasi tietty määrä on hyväksytty ja tietty määrä hylätty.

Lisäksi pitäisi päättää tarkasti, kuinka monta ääntä tarvittaisiin muutoksiin, otettaisiinko henkilön profiilista löytyvä kielitaito huomioon, mitä tapahtuisi kahden viikon päästä, jne.

Toki näitä muutoksia voisi tehdä vähän kerrallaan.

* Ilmoitus muutoksesta linkkiin (kuten sacredceltic toisaalla ehdotti) tai tunnisteeseen tai ilmoitus muokatusta lauseesta.
* Tatoeban sisäinen tapa seurata keskusteluita seinällä ja lauseissa (ja lopulta muita tässä esitettyjä seikkoja).
* Muutosehdotus lauseeseen siten, että muokkausoikeuden omaava voisi hyväksyä tai hylätä sen yhdellä painalluksella. Myöhemmin vastaava ehdotusmahdollisuus tunnisteiden poistamiseksi tai lisäämiseksi ja linkkien poistamiseksi tai lisäämiseksi.

Noiden päälle voisi sitten harkita automatisoituja piirteitä, kuten muutosehdotusten puoltamista tai vastustamista ja automaattisesti tapahtuvia muutoksia, kun aikaa tai puoltoja on kertynyt riittävästi.

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Oletan, että tämänkaltainen järjestelmä johtaisi suurempaan selkeyteen siitä, mitä kukin pitää sopivana käännöksenä, tunnisteena ja lauseena. Myös tietokannan laadun luulisi parantuvan, kun useampi henkilö voisi tehdä ehdotuksia ja toisaalta niitä voitaisiin myös hylätä. Muutokset tapahtuisivat nopeammin ja joustavammin kuin tällä hetkellä.

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Aiji Aiji antaŭ 27 tagoj 2020-marto-09 13:50 link permalink

Nous savons que la maintenance du corpus est très loin d'être parfaite mais nous savons également qu'elle pose des défis de taille. Merci d'avoir pris le temps de mettre par écrit vos idées pour proposer votre vision et vos idées !

Il serait difficile de répondre à tout donc je ne soulèverai qu'un seul point, qui est qu'il n'est pas toujours bon de s'en tenir à l'avis de la masse. Même à un contre dix, celui qui est seul peut avoir raison. S'il est inactif, alors il aura forcément tort. Avoir des personnes en charge de la maintenance du corpus permet d'éviter cette situation car ces personnes sont supposées avoir une plus grande expérience de Tatoeba et une vision assez large et flexible de la langue dont ils se chargent pour ne pas nécessairement donner tort aux absents.

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gillux gillux antaŭ 26 tagoj 2020-marto-10 05:45 link permalink

Merci. Je suis globalement d’accord, le système actuel de sérieuses limites car des tas de suggestions proposées sous forme de commentaire finissent perdues dans la masse.

Peut-être pourrait-on commencer avec un système simple de signalement : lorsque je commente une phrase, je peux cocher une case genre "Je crois qu’il y a un problème avec cette phrase." Cela aurait pour effet de mettre une révision "pas sûr" (orange) même si l’on a le paramètre des révisions désactivé. Puis, on crée une autre page "relecture" qui permet de lister toutes les phrases "pas sûr" pour une langue donnée.

À part ça, je suis d’accord avec Aiji sur le fait qu’un système de vote n’est pas adapté, car je pense que la qualité ne s’obtient pas en alignant des chiffres, mais en discutant et en apprenant. Je pense qu’on pourrait plutôt s’inspirer de la manière dont fonctionne Wikipédia, le consensus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W...for_discussion

Thanuir Thanuir antaŭ 24 tagoj 2020-marto-11 16:27 link permalink

Ajattelin enemmän laajemalle joukolle käyttäjiä mahdollisuutta tehdä ehdotuksia, ja näiden automaattista toteutumista, kun ehdotuksia kertyy tarpeeksi (tai aikaa kuluu tarpeeksi, miten vain parhaaksi nähdään).

Jos ehdotus kiistetään, ei ole mitään syytä toteuttaa sitä ilman keskustelua ja yhteisymmärryksen hakemista.

TRANG TRANG antaŭ 26 tagoj 2020-marto-09 18:35 link permalink

**Copy-paste feature in new design**

Since we have moved the copy-paste feature out of beta this week, and it's now displayed by default for everyone in the old sentence design, I have implemented it as well in the new sentence design.

It is deployed on the dev website: https://dev.tatoeba.org/eng/

In theory it should work on the same browsers and devices as the copy-paste feature in the old sentence design. But please test it if you have time, especially on phones and tablets.

Thank you!

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AlanF_US AlanF_US antaŭ 26 tagoj 2020-marto-10 10:46 link permalink

It works fine for me on an Android tablet in Chrome.

CK CK antaŭ 25 tagoj, modifita antaŭ 6 horoj 2020-marto-11 08:30, modifita 2020-aprilo-05 09:33 link permalink

[not needed anymore- removed by CK]

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gillux gillux antaŭ 25 tagoj 2020-marto-11 08:53 link permalink

Noted, I’m going to fix this soon.