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Wall (7128 threads)

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Ooneykcall Ooneykcall May 21, 2025 May 21, 2025 at 1:02:19 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

I'm posting this message on the Wall to ask you all a language-related non-Tatoeba question, which may seem a bit out of place for being unrelated to Tatoeba, but as it is language-related I think there's no harm done, particularly since I don't think one can find a satisfactory answer to it online and this is possibly the best place to ask, given the presence of many educated native speakers of various languages here. The question is:

What is the oldest text in your native language[s] that felt sufficiently modern that you were able to read it without particular difficulty? That is, you didn't need to look up old grammar or inflection forms to understand, and there were relatively few words that you had to look up because they've grown obsolete or changed their meanings since then, so overall you were able to read it with little more difficulty than you read modern texts. [Spelling is not considered, assume modernised spelling for old texts like we do in Russian where all modern reprints of pre-1918 texts use current orthography.]

For Russian, I can say that modern Russian ['modern' in a generic sense, not linguistically whereby '[modern] Russian' emerges as a development of Old Russian / Old East Slavic circa XV century, but XV century Russian is very much not easily understandable yet] is generally considered to have begun under Peter the Great [early XVIII century] who directed radical reforms and opened Russian society to Western influence, which naturally caused rapid and significant language change to match the changing times, but of course it didn't happen overnight and the texts of the time are quite variable in terms of style and register with plenty of archaic forms and excessive foreign borrowings that didn't survive, as the 'general modern language style' was slowly being developed. 'Modern-style' texts gradually emerge in the latter half of XVIII century, the first well-known 'modern' text being Denis Fonvizin's Недоросль [Minor/Ignoramus], a play satirizing human vices published in 1783; it's the earliest work of Russian literature studied fully in our schools [earlier XVIII century works are only skimmed over in excerpts]. Nikolay Karamzin's story Бедная Лиза [Poor Lisa], published in 1792 - a short sentimental story about failed love that leads to suicide, deliberately written in a then-vernacular style fitting its motif - is completely understandable to a modern speaker without consulting a dictionary once, I think; obviously, you can tell that it is not modern by usage of certain words and word forms, but none of them present any difficulty since they are easily inferred from currently used forms. So this completes the answer.

I am now quite interested to hear what other people's experiences in this respect are in their native languages, so any and all answers are more than welcome; I hope many of you shall also find this question interesting and will enjoy reading what others have to say about it.

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Thanuir Thanuir May 21, 2025 May 21, 2025 at 1:24:11 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

Kalevala (alunperin 1835) on haastava, mutta se on eeppistä runoutta.

Seitsemän veljestä (alunperin 1870) on pääosin ymmärretävä, mutta erityisesti maalaisyhteiskuntaan liittyvistä sanoista osa on outoja ja kieli, vaikkakin ymmärrettävää, on selkeän vanhankantaista. Luen fraktuuroilla kirjoitettua laitosta, mikä vaati vähän aikaa totuttelua.

Katsoin vuoden 1548 Raamattua, ja ymmärsin vaivalloisesti, mutta toisaalta kohdan sisältö oli tuttu.

Alunperin suomalainen kirjallisuus ei ole kovin vanhaa.

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Ooneykcall Ooneykcall May 21, 2025 May 21, 2025 at 7:24:05 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

It was nice learning something new from your comment. I knew about Kalevala, which I figured was too epic to be modern, and obviously Agricola's Bible is archaic though somewhat understandable I imagine. I didn't know about the Seven Brothers, apparently it's the first notable novel in Finnish. Yeah, the Finnish nation [in a modern sense, with its own literature, cohesive culture and nation-state] is quite young, of course. Thank you for answering.

lbdx lbdx May 21, 2025, edited May 21, 2025 May 21, 2025 at 3:38:48 PM UTC, edited May 21, 2025 at 4:14:49 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

Modern French appeared in the early 17th century. It was standardized by the Académie Française, an institution founded in 1635 by Cardinal Richelieu. In 1637, "The Discourse on the Method" by René Descartes was written and published in French so as to reach a wider audience than Latin would have allowed.

In French schools, pupils can read the original texts of Molière's comedies ( 1645–1673) without much difficulty. I also remember studying poems in Middle French, such as Villon's “Ballade des pendus” (1489). The spelling was very different from modern French, but the spoken text was quite intelligible.

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Ooneykcall Ooneykcall May 21, 2025 May 21, 2025 at 7:35:33 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

Interesting, thanks. I didn't expect the French that existed when the French Academy was established would be so close to modern French 400 years later that you could still read works in it fairly freely, impressive.

[I'm not sure if French pronunciation in 1500 would be that close to current though, I think a lot of phonetic changes happened after the orthography settled down hence they are not reflected by it? E.g. I know 'oi' in words like 'roi' was pronounced rather like 'ouais' until 1700s.]

alouadifama alouadifama May 27, 2025 May 27, 2025 at 6:44:40 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

For English, texts from the late 1700s to early 1800s, like Jane Austen’s novels, are easily readable without needing to study old grammar or vocabulary. Earlier works like Shakespeare or the King James Bible are still English but feel more archaic & need some interpretation. Austen’s style marks a clear shift to modern readability.

sharptoothed sharptoothed May 25, 2025 May 25, 2025 at 6:36:27 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

✹✹ Stats & Graphs ✹✹

Tatoeba Stats, Graphs & Charts have been updated:
https://tatoeba.j-langtools.com/allstats/

deniko deniko May 23, 2025 May 23, 2025 at 2:25:06 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

What are the odds of finding something like this locally—and for just £1.5?

https://i.imgur.com/v4s03fz.png

atitarev atitarev April 24, 2025, edited April 24, 2025 April 24, 2025 at 7:24:00 AM UTC, edited April 24, 2025 at 7:27:52 AM UTC flag Report link Permalink

At https://tatoeba.org/en/sentences/show/13175064
喂!is incorrectly converted as "餵!". 餵 is only used in other senses (e.g. to "feed")

我餵了貓。/ 我喂了猫。(Wǒ wèi le māo.) - I fed the cat. here 餵/喂 is correct.

But 喂 (wèi) "hello?" (on the phone) has only one form - traditional and simplified. Pls suppress the conversion or make 喂 for both simplified and traditional Chinese.

(In real life 喂 is pronounced with the second tone wéi but the nominal, dictionary pronunciation should be "wèi".)

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atitarev atitarev April 28, 2025 April 28, 2025 at 2:30:11 AM UTC flag Report link Permalink

The sentence turned out to be a duplicate but the issue with a wrong conversion remains. 喂 is both traditional and simplified.

https://tatoeba.org/en/sentences/show/6401432

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gillux gillux May 18, 2025 May 18, 2025 at 10:04:58 AM UTC flag Report link Permalink

Thank you for reporting this issue, atitarev. We are currently working on a solution, the progress is tracked here: https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/2007

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atitarev atitarev May 18, 2025 May 18, 2025 at 1:34:28 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

Thank you, @gillux.

tsunhua tsunhua April 30, 2025 April 30, 2025 at 9:49:57 AM UTC flag Report link Permalink

I'm thrilled to have discovered such an amazing website. I would like to suggest adding the Teochew dialect (a branch of Southern Min/Hokkien language) to the language options list.

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lbdx lbdx April 30, 2025 April 30, 2025 at 11:58:52 AM UTC flag Report link Permalink

Sorry, the Teochew dialect cannot be added to Tatoeba as it does not have an ISO 639-3 language identifier. But feel free to add your sentences to our Southern Min/Min Nan Chinese [nan] corpus.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teochew_Min

gillux gillux May 18, 2025 May 18, 2025 at 7:20:21 AM UTC flag Report link Permalink

As Ibdx said, unfortunately we cannot add it as we have the strict rule of following the ISO 639-3 standard.

Note that this standard is evolving slowly as people are requesting the addition of new languages, so it could be that Teochew is added at some point, but that would be years in the future, if it ever happen.

In the past there have been several requests made to split Min Nan Chinese into different languages, mostly rejected: https://iso639-3.sil.org/code_c...t_cd_value=nan

The latest request tried to include Teochew ("Tio-Sua"), but it was rejected: https://iso639-3.sil.org/request/2021-045

rdgscratch rdgscratch May 16, 2025 May 16, 2025 at 10:43:20 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

Can you do recordings of my sentences?

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PaulP PaulP May 18, 2025 May 18, 2025 at 4:07:46 AM UTC flag Report link Permalink

You can do it yourself. Here's a short guide:
https://www.manythings.org/tatoeba/audacity.html

@CK will help you if you need assistance. But, btw, I see that you added sentences in about 60 languages. I don't suppose that you know how to pronounce them all, right?

I can do the Dutch and Esperanto sentences for you if they don't come from copyrighted sources.

sharptoothed sharptoothed May 15, 2025 May 15, 2025 at 12:50:31 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

✹✹ Stats & Graphs ✹✹

Tatoeba Top 30 Languages Graphs since Tatoeba "epoch"
https://tatoeba.j-langtools.com/epoch/

May 15, 2025 May 15, 2025 at 12:45:39 PM UTC link Permalink
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frpzzd frpzzd May 12, 2025, edited May 12, 2025 May 12, 2025 at 10:53:24 PM UTC, edited May 12, 2025 at 11:02:57 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

Just for funsies, I ran a script to list the languages that are least well represented on Tatoeba, compared to the estimated speaker population sizes of those languages. (Specifically, the languages were restricted to those with >= 1mil speakers sorted by the quotient of the number of sentences on Tatoeba to the speaker population size.)

As you might expect, many of the worst-represented languages by this metric are various different variants of Chinese. Aside from those, the top 10 worst-represented languages are:

1. Sindhi (snd, 6 sentences vs. ~38.4mil speakers)
2. Sesotho (sot, 2 sentences vs. ~6.4mil speakers)
3. Maithili (mai, 8 sentences vs. ~19.3mil speakers)
4. Madurese (mad, 8 sentences vs. ~17.0mil speakers)
5. Libyan Arabic (ayl, 3 sentences vs. ~5.6mil speakers)
6. Western Punjabi (pnb, 72 sentences vs. ~113mil speakers)
7. Aymara (aym, 2 sentences vs. ~2.8mil speakers)
8. Pashto (pus, 47 sentences vs. ~53.0mil speakers)
9. Igbo (ibo, 35 sentences vs. ~28.0mil speakers)
10. Sundanese (sun, 40 sentences vs. ~32.0mil speakers)

If we restrict instead to languages with an estimated number of speakers >= 50mil, then here are the top 5 (excluding Chinese variants):

1. Western Punjabi (pnb, 72 sentences vs. ~113mil speakers)
2. Pashto (pus, 47 sentences vs. ~53mil speakers)
3. Punjabi (pan, 204 sentences vs. ~200mil speakers)
4. Gujarati (guj, 168 sentences vs. ~60mil speakers)
5. Telugu (tel, 271 sentences vs. ~95mil speakers)

On a more cheery note, here are the 5 *best* represented languages (that are not conlangs) with >= 1mil speakers, by the same metric:

1. Kabyle (kab, ~765k sentences vs. ~3.4mil speakers)
2. Macedonian (mkd, ~78k sentences vs. ~1.4mil speakers)
3. Lithuanian (lit, ~123k sentences vs. ~2.3mil speakers)
4. Hungarian (hun, ~420k sentences vs. ~11.8mil speakers)
5. Finnish (fin, ~151k sentences vs. ~5.2mil speakers)

And those with >= 50mil speakers:

1. Italian (ita, ~918k sentences vs. ~65mil speakers)
2. Turkish (tur, ~739k sentences vs. ~76mil speakers)
3. German (deu, ~721k sentences vs. ~92mil speakers)
4. Russian (rus, ~1.1mil sentences vs. ~170mil speakers)
5. French (fra, ~665k sentences vs. ~203mil speakers)

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lbdx lbdx May 13, 2025, edited May 14, 2025 May 13, 2025 at 4:13:08 PM UTC, edited May 14, 2025 at 10:18:31 AM UTC flag Report link Permalink

Thanks Franklin. It's interesting to see how Eurocentric the Tatoeba corpus still is.

Based on the 2025 edition of Ethnologue 200, I found that some of the world's 100 most widely spoken languages are still completely unavailable on Tatoeba:

- Nigerian Pidgin [pcm] → 120.7M speakkers
- Dari [prs] → 33.4M speakkers
- Magahi [mag] → 21.0M speakkers
- Chhattisgarhi [hne] → 16.3M speakkers
- Pedi [nso] → 13.7M speakkers
- Chittagonian [ctg] → 13.0M speakkers
- Dyula [dyu] → 12.8M speakkers


All 7 of these languages are spoken either in Africa or South Asia.

May 12, 2025 May 12, 2025 at 3:38:40 PM UTC link Permalink
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