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I propose to add a new tag called Beginner or something like that for sentence very simple what we can learn when you begin to learn a language.
Few example:
I read a book.
I listen music.
I am French.
What time is it.
They are already a tag named "simple sentence" but I find it not so simple because they used a highest vocabulary.
Oh great, I didn't looked in the list.
I think it good idea to define some rules for each level.
Yea, my lists are nothing official. Mostly, they're for-me-by-me, with all my biases thrown in. Use them at your own discretion.
(but if you want super simple sentences, the Very Basic list is probably not a bad place to start)
I think the problem is that we need rules about what sentences can be put under what level.
I think we've decided to use established systems from tests for foreign learners...
Yep, because it's easier to say "this sentence contain only vocabulary / grammar pattern that someone who wants to pass LANGUAGETEST level X is supposed to know", moreover there's official list, and it's more valuable for learners, as this way they can directly filter sentences depending of which test they prepare
I don't know if this would be helpful, but I'm currently dividing up English sentences into 5 different levels. If you want the really basic ones, you can check the list "English Sentences - Very Basic" (or "Basic").
Those should all be quite simple.
Wikipedia has a Simple English edition. They might have guidelines. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Si...lish_Wikipedia
How to logout?
Logout button was difficult to find for me.
Next of your inbox icon, the "Remove" button style icon is logout button.
Thanks, gracehero, AT LAST I found it!
Even with your help, it was difficult to guess that my "inbox icon" was that little squared box plus number "0" at the right. Not very "friendly" feature.
Kie estas butono aŭ ligilo por fini la seancon?
Where is the link or button to logout?
Once more on 1-word sentences
-------------------------------------------------
### What’s wrong with them? ###
We don’t like one-word sentences not because they can be found in a dictionary.
In fact, lots of things can be found in a dictionary. There are lots of proverb dictionaries out there.[1] Does it mean Tatoeba is duplicating things instead of collaborating? *Yes.* But if it does it better, it’s OK.[2]
We don’t like one-word sentences because it’s an unneccesary duplication. In fact, 90% of them are duplicales of the small subset of grammatic constructions:
* A nominal sentence
* A sentence with the predicate omitted
* An imperative sentence
They have no valuable to learners.
### Why banning is not an option ###
BUT! There are good useful one-word sentences:
* Sometimes we have some etiquette phrases that have several words in one language but one word in other. E.g. «Thank you» is «Спасибо» in Russian.
* Most languages allow omission of some parts of sentence; in some cases the sentence with the omission is natural while the ‘full’ sentence is not (e.g. pronouns like ‘yo’ in Spanish[3]).
* There are polysynthetic languages where a word can mean a lot of things
If you ban one-word sentences:
* Tatoeba will never cover all the grammatic structures
* Users will be unable to add translations to some sentences, or, what is worse, will have to add unnatural 2-word translations, or translations that do not really match
### What is really neccessary ###
What we need to do are some rules against unneccesary duplication (e.g. we have «Пожалуйста!» and «Пожалуйста.» with an exclamation mark and with a dot — it is surely superfluous), not rules against one-word sentences.
As CK once noticed, sentence pattern “What is happiness?” can be used to cover a lion’s share of the vocabulary: from “What is aali?” to “What is zytel poliamide?”. Is such duplication less dangerous than one-word sentences?
### Some more criticism ###
Why was ‘One, two, three…’ deleted? In Russian, ‘one’ is ‘один’, but when counting something we use ‘раз’ (a time): “Раз, два, три…”.
It’s never really used outside of this context, only when counting something without specifying a thing, so you’ve deleted a valuable example.
### Footnotes ###
[1] In fact, even [Wiktionary](http://en.wiktionary.org/) lists proverbs.
[2] It does it better because it’s free, multilingual... and because it works well.
[3] Please correct me if I’m wrong.
The problem in fact is not one word sentence itself,it's that some user will abuse, and I want simple rule for moderators to play their role without waiting for me or Trang to say "yes" or "no".
After As I've said you can use them in conjonction to an other sentence, which will bring more context in how to use this
for example in tibetan you have 2 way to say goodbye, one if you're the one who's leaving, and one if you're staying. so if instead of "goodbye" , you have "I'm leaving, it's late. Goodbye"
After I think there's 2 big categories of one word sentences / really short sentences.
1 - idiom or common saying (Hello / Thanks/ Bon appétit etc.)
2 - specific grammar pattern (imperativ in English / French)
for the first one , it's something I haven't talk about here yet, but we're collaborating with the shtooka project as some of you may know to provide audio.
Their first of their own project was to record audio for single words, common saying etc. and they're going to open their website to collaborative works
here is a spoiler http://swac-collections.org/sea...*&locale=en_GB
http://swac-collections.org/sea...*&locale=en_GB
http://swac-collections.org/sea...*&locale=en_GB
It's still a beginning, but as you can see they handle conjugated forms, common sayings etc. and translations.
So that's why I think when they will open (which should not be so long), their interface will be much more appropriate to short sentences (I will say 'short' instead of 1-words)
Moreover I know the guys who're making this project, I eat with them, fucongcong has made their design, the guy (zmoo in tatoeba /irc) is making our new database, so don't see it as a "Hey please stop annoy me with your short sentences go there, thanksbye", but as "it will be a better place", and it's highly possible (and we're planning that) that they will have bridges between the two projects
you will be able to see tatoeba sentences using the words / short sentences in shtooka
you will be able to see words / short sentences include in tatoeba sentences which are present in shtooka
so to make it short I think in the future
short short sentences / common sayings / words / conjugated words / short pattern (an apple etc.) => shtooka
bigger sentences, with some of them using common sayings with context etc. => tatoeba
That way it will be easier for someone to know where to find something, and for us, to develop interface adapted for each problematic.
I see a major gap between Shtooka and Tatoeba: Words are not always pronounced the same when they stand alone and in the middle of other words. The prime example is French. You can't properly speak and understand French if you don't understand that a word changes their pronunciation when it is followed or preceded by another word which is called a "liaison" and is a major difficulty for foreigners to make out words when they listen to French (and by the way, I warn you that many French audios on Tatoeba don't actually feature proper liaisons, so are actually useless in terms of education for foreign-learners, as most French people actually pronounce these liaisons very much as I do myself. Actually, not pronouncing a liaison in French is a FULL mistake!)
So for instance:
noun "As" (ace)
1 "un" as => "unNass"
2 "deu" as => "deuZass"
4 "quatre" as => "quatrass"
6 "siss" as=> "siZass"
10 "diss" as=> "diZass"
100 "cen" as=> "cenTass"
Adjective: amer
trop "tro" + amer "amère" => "troPamère"
Adverb : longtemps
longtemps "lontem" + après "aprè" => "longtempZaprè"
In many instances, if one doesn't pronounce the liaisons in French, or pronounces it incorrectly, it will not make oneself understood or something entirely different will be understood.
my bad for the French audio, I'm the one who recorded them.
I'm checking them to find sentences where I've forgotten to pronounce the liaison, thanks for noticing.
> The problem in fact is not one word sentence
> itself, it's that some user will abuse, and I
> want simple rule for moderators to play their
> role without waiting for me or Trang to say
> "yes" or "no".
Hmm... That may be useful indeed.
But please make it clear that this guidelines are only for adding new sentences, not for translating the existing, and that keeping sentence natural is more important than making the sentence limit.
> It's still a beginning, but as you can see
> they handle conjugated forms, common sayings
> etc. and translations.
That is an interesting project. :)
I'm looking forward to its opening.
By the way, Demetrius, I fully agree with you, and I deplore you didn't support me when I was holding the exact same view and was trying to defend it earlier in discussions with CK and Swift.
I see much more redundancy in Tatoeba with endless repetitions of surnames, dates, units and counters than with one word sentences.
I particularly fully support the idea that not all languages are equal in terms of number of words needed to mean something. A good example is this one:
http://tatoeba.org/fre/sentences/show/519570
This is very frequent in Esperanto, since this language has inner word construction (and decoding) rules that enable to create extremely sophisticated words that remain plain to read. I can actually build words in Esperanto that I cannot in any other language including my own native, French.
Since not all languages are yet present in Tatoeba, how do we know that many words are not needed in one or several of these missing languages to mean one word in the existing languages?
I actually find this obsessive one word sentence hunting by Tatoeba moderators quite pathological and it is one of the several reasons I stopped contributing lately.
This is all the more pathological, since thousands of duplicates, wrong translations and spelling mistakes abound here. Why on Earth are moderators so pernickety when it comes to one-word sentences, when they otherwise tolerate this huge mess?
Since I joined Tatoeba, I haven't seen the deduplication script run once! I ended up believing it is a myth!
Lately, Globish has seen thousands of new contributions, making it the number 1 language ahead of Japanese, but I am convinced, from what I see daily, 90% must be duplicates.
Every newcomer who has a year of school Globish keys in always the same phrases, as everyone knows.
So I can't see how one-word sentences actually pose a problem (technical or other) with such massive clutter. Actually, it should be new Globish phrases altogether that should be banned !
> and by the way, I warn you that
> many French audios on Tatoeba don't
> actually feature proper liaisons, so
> are actually useless in terms of
> education for foreign-learners,
> as most French people actually
> pronounce these liaisons...
Unfortunately, I currently can’t listen to audio on Tatoeba, but it seems to be a great problem.
Unlike sentences, audio seems to be a “bonus” feature that most people don’t use, so it’s immature and prone to errors and undetected bugs.
What is more, while we have an established way of fixing errors in a sentence, only administrators can fix the audio... :o
Maybe you can give an example to attract some attention to this problem?
> Since I joined Tatoeba, I haven't seen
> the deduplication script run once!
> I ended up believing it is a myth!
Well, I did see those mythical times. :)
But I hope the script will be fixed soon.
> Actually, it should be new Globish phrases
> altogether that should be banned !
Well, what concerns non-standard phrases, I believe that tags should be keep track of these.
If some word is a new coinage, or colloquial, it should be tagged as such, so that people who want to re-use Tatoeba data will be able to filter such sentences if they want to stick to the established word usage.
Additional tags can be created for some languages. For example, in Ukrainian we have tag “Russism” for those who don’t want to use the language constructions influenced by Russian.
>Well, what concerns non-standard phrases, I believe that tags should be keep track of these.
>If some word is a new coinage, or colloquial, it should be tagged as such, so that people who want to re-use Tatoeba data will be able to filter such sentences if they want to stick to the established word usage.
>Additional tags can be created for some languages. For example, in Ukrainian we have tag “Russism” for those who don’t want to use the language constructions influenced by Russian.
Well, that is the other current major failure of Tatoeba, in my view: The lack of reference and authority. We end up not knowing what a language is anymore. If I was to trust Tatoeba, I would doubt my own native language.
Sure, tags are a fine feature, but most people can just ignore them, and moreover, tags don't show up when you view translations of a sentence, so if there is one proper translation and others that are dubious/slang/alternative, and you're a learner, you have no direct way to know which is the "correct" translation.
To me, this ruins entirely the educative purpose of Tatoeba: If one doesn't know right from wrong, then the entire stuff is considered unreliable crap.
Funnily enough, this is inconsistent according to languages:
For instance, since all moderators are anglophones (when a majority of the world's polyglots are not...), English language is "protected" and treasured by them like if it was a golden icon (although modern English has no official reference but usage, so in theory, as long as a phrase is used by a single person in the world, it should be considered correct), but when it comes to French (which, unlike English, has official references), abuses of orthography is let loose in Tatoeba, with or without appropriate tags, in the name of "usage" (although this is not defined).
It is very nice to aim at picturing the various faces of languages, but you cannot allow this anarchy, otherwise it discredits entirely the work of contributors who want to produce "clean" translations. References must be aknowledged, and referenced content should not appear along with unreferenced one without proper markers to differentiate them (like italic font or something...)
Tags are definitely not sufficient for that purpose.
for authority, I've met Trang last week, we will define (at least for French, for other languages, we will need to discuss language by language with natives) authority source, to avoid as much as possible the crap.
I hope and suggest you will not forbid sentences that contain words that are "crap" according to your reference, but only stamp them as "crap" or whatever^^ or not stamp them as "not crap" like sacredceltic seems to suggest with "2) It is necessary to devise a mechanism to "stamp" a phrase as correct according to this reference.".
As a non-French native I'm interested in also learning words that people use although its "crap". An example I have in mind is "anime/animé" in French. It's a word that seems to be used quite often at least by young people and I wouldn't like to not find such words on Tatoeba. So I wouldn't mind if a French sentence with "anime" was stamped "crap", I would even find that an interesting extra-information, but don't forbid that!
Well, actually, "anime" pronounced "animé" is baby-talk in French. It is a shorthand for "personnage de dessin animé" and it has been intoduced only recently (I would say in the last 20 years) after the japanese manga cartoons have surfaced in France in the 80s.
Why a noun was needed for those and not for the characters of former western cartoons is a mystery to me. The fact is that, at one point, it sounded "cool" to French kids to use that adjective as a shorthand.
To a person who doesn't know about the manga subculture, however, using the adjective "animé" as a noun sounds weird. We hear "animé" as being the opposite of "inanimé", so one wonders if the person using the word means it as opposed to deceased people/animals...So because of this ambiguity (that most kids probably don't perceive) I am suspicious that this noun, as such will ever make it in the larger public...
Kids don't make the language, or rarely so, because to coin a word, you have to know the other words of the language, so as to avoid duplicates/ambiguities, etc...
The same goes with "email" which not only is a plain English word, but also conflicts with the French "émail" and contradicts every pronunciation rules in French and this is why references recommend "e-mail", "mél" or "courriel" (which Larousse curiously says is a Canadian use, although public French authorities use it as well and so do I...)
We'll see what the future will tell, but I doubt words that introduce confusion, especially when they are foreign and must be pronounced according to nondescript foreign principles (which most people ignore. This is the case of "anime" since nobody can't see why it should be pronouced "animé"...), will make it through the times...
Anyway, you can't expect adults and authorities, law, ... to adapt to kids talk as soon as it pops up. Kids words come and go and often die out with the next generation. I, for one, won't miss that ridiculous word when it goes...
"anime" was an example and even if you call it baby language the fact is that it's used and that I want to understand words like this. An other example would be "alunir" if you took the Académie Française as reference.
Another point is that also refenreces develop - they admit new words. And where do these words come from? They come from usage, don't they? (And no! I'm not pretending they would admit all words that are used, don't even try tu argue on this ;) !) So why should Tatoeba always wait for references to admit a word before it can be used on Tatoeba? It can be used on Tatoeba before, stamped as "crap" or whatever and everyone will be happy... will he :) ?
I'm not denying that these words surface. That doesn't make the language. Maybe it will, maybe not. "alunir" is a good example of why experts are needed. I discovered recently this debate, and I actually disagree with the argument of the Académie. But I bow to the Academie's conclusion because I support the idea that French should be as unambiguous as possible. "anime" makes it more ambiguous.
No, not all new entries in references come from usage in French. Far from it! Most words in French have been coined by scholars, since French is almost entirely an artificial creation, based on Latin and Greek roots that most laymen ignore (just think of all the words in Theology, Philosophy, Literature, Medicine, Geography, History, and all the sciences...)
Closer from us, the Académie coined "balladeur" to translate "walkman" and in my generation most kids used the English word. Now most use "baladeur" because it's a pretty noun that sounds more natural in French and is as self-descriptive.
As for Tatoeba, as for every internet tool, it is not only a service, it is also a window. That means that many people take what they see for granted. What would you think if German books were suddenly available in different editions: Normal german, kids German, baby German, Turko-German, Anglo-German and you wouldn't be able to know which version you buy based on the cover ? You would certainly complain it is unacceptable. Well, so here it is the same.
If some languages like English don't have any reference, that is its speakers' problem, but not all languages operate this way. Yes, there is usage, and usage is made of plenty of different forms. I know French kids who use words form French, Arabic, English, Wolof, Toucouleur, Romanian, ...plus Verlants (reversed) versions of all these words and all combinations of these different registers. That doesn't define French. If you want to create phrases in a new language that you call "kid language that I heard in Paris in september 2010", please do, but don't call it French. Because there is a 90% chance it isn't.
Actually, I know linguists are studying the birth of a new language in North East Paris. But it isn't French. It is a new language, mixing French, Arabic, Berber and Woiof elements with its own syntax and grammar.
Anglo-French creoles also exist in different parts of the world, but they're not French either. Nor English. They're Creoles.
I am not opposed to featuring phrases with "new" words in Tatoeba under 2 conditions:
1) these phrases must look like they're not in standard French (so I suggest italic) - so "anime" would fall in that category
2) these phrases must not be in Globish, because then it is not French, so either you define the language as "English"(if purists accept that) or create a new "Globish" language to pour the rejected crap (under what rules ??)
"and you wouldn't be able to know which version you buy based on the cover ? "
I never suggested to not write it on the cover.
1) I agree as you could read from my previous posts
2) not sure what you mean
>I never suggested to not write it on the cover.
But that is how it is sold now. If you are a young Japanese student and you want to learn French using Tatoeba, for the moment, you can't distinguish it from crap.
2) "j'envoie un email" => is franco-english. It is not French. It shouldn't be under a French language flag.
So either you put an English flag (maybe blay_paul wants it...) or you create a "Globish" flag and you put it there with all the international crap that we read and hear all the time nowadays from people who think they correctly speak a language when they don't...
>2) "j'envoie un email" => is franco-english. It is not French. It shouldn't be under a French language flag.
So either you put an English flag (maybe blay_paul wants it...) or you create a "Globish" flag and you put it there with all the international crap that we read and hear all the time nowadays from people who think they correctly speak a language when they don't...
That sounds... really purist. Languages evolve (well, except something like Old Slavic... that's not evolving). If Tatoeba is to be practical, it needs to have Globish. It's not crap. It's evolution.
> If Tatoeba is to be practical, it needs to have Globish. It's not crap. It's evolution.
Yes, it's called Globish. Why call it "French"?
> Yes, it's called Globish.
I think you're the only one who calls it like that.
maybe because I'm the only French speaking English and above 40...
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globish
I swear I didn't write this article...
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/...t-globish.html
I'm so honoured that a word I am the only one to use makes it in the New York Times and the title of such a famous book ^^
Because that's what it is called? You would seem like less of a crank and a hypocrite if you stuck to common definitions instead of arguing that French is not French and that English is Globish (which is an ambiguous term, and your use of it is almost certainly inaccurate either way.)
Well, maybe you're just too ignorant?
Yes, the excessive use of (usually bad) English and its ridiculous peppering in all other languages, regardless of theses languages own pronunciation rules or homophones, by people who find it cool to show off their English and subsequently forget the corresponding words in their own language, is called Globishisation. I live in Brussels, the EU Capital, and even the English call it that here. The euro-English that is spoken here is appalling and rejected with disdain by the English people themselves. As a matter of fact, since English has no official reference and is based on usage, English is transformed by globalisation with inconsistent influences of bad-English from all over the world, resulting in what the English themselves call "Globish". I learnt that very word from an English person myself. So in fact, the English have been entirely dispossessed of their own language. Former Prime Minister Gordon Brown declared that Great Britain (actually England, as he forgot that other languages exist in other parts of Great Britain...you're not alone to be ignorant, obviously, if it can be of any help...) "granted" this wonderful creation to the world. Well thank you, but, now that even English people don't make this mess out anymore...
I think it is a high level Scandinavian minister who ridiculed herself the most, despite probably 20 years of English-education, when she declared to journalists that she was "at the start of her period" when she meant her "mandate". Globish is indeed ridicule.
They may call it 'Globishisation', but they don't write much about it, because Google finds just a handful of uses.
'Globish' is a trademark of Globish Solutions Inc. and refers to a subset of English, *not* to English mangled by non-native speakers. I doubt you'll find the word in any reputable dictionary, so I suggest you to cease with the 'baby-talk' and say "international English" if you must.
The Scandinavian countries use either US or British English. The incident you speak sounds like nothing more or less than slip of the tongue that could have happened in any language, even her own, though at least then nearly no one would have understood her.
Other examples include John "Berliner" F. Kennedy, and George W. Bush, a native US English speaker who certainly didn't find the lack of language barriers a hindrance to drawing ridicule.
You say 'Globish' is ridicule, and you say the sentences on Tatoeba are 'Globish'. I think you are unlikely to grammatically embarrass yourself with the vast majority of sentences on Tatoeba, though, so I'm sure there must be some misunderstanding here.
> You say 'Globish' is ridicule, and you say the sentences on Tatoeba are 'Globish'.
No, I never said that. I wrote a few were...Especially phrases of non-English languages that are systematically peppered with useless and laughable anglicisms.
>so I'm sure there must be some misunderstanding here.
Yes, yours. If you read me correctly instead of calling me names...
You shouldn't mingle in conversations of other people when you don't grasp them.
Actually I respect the English language as much as any other, up to the point that it is actually my second language. I read and write daily in this language. I just deplore that people use it in the wrong way and at the wrong place, for no other purpose than sounding "cool".
"Lately, Globish has seen thousands of new contributions, making it the number 1 language ahead of Japanese"
You said there were over 152920 sentences in 'Globish'. Don't say ridiculous things if you don't want to be corrected.
I had no intention of intruding on your discussion of the French language's evolution, I merely thought to inform you that I found your tone opinionated and inflammatory, and that your use of the poorly-defined 'Globish' was probably not helping your cause.
I am not the one to call this Globish. I didn't coin that word, as evidenced by my references below and contrary to what Demetrius asserted. Globish on Tatoeba is the result of thousands of daily bad-English contributions, by early-learners, and by initial imports of broken-English by Japanese learners. It ends up being what it is today. A big pot of you-name-it full of duplicates. I don't call this English. it is not, although much English might be included in it.
I don't see why calling this mess "Globish" would be inflammatory since Brits call it that.
And, yes, I have an opinion, and I don't call you names as you do me. You're just a rude person.
> I am not the one to call this Globish. I didn't coin that word, ...
A book by that title was indeed published in May this year.
That doesn't mean that the word is in common use, and your use of it to refer also to Anglicisms in non-English languages seems to be novel.
Moreover its use was quite unnecessary. You appear to be denigrating people's abilities and efforts by saying they cannot learn 'proper' English:
"Lately, Globish has seen thousands of new contributions, making it the number 1 language ahead of Japanese, ..."
"Every newcomer who has a year of school Globish keys in always the same phrases, as everyone knows."
"Actually, it should be new Globish phrases altogether that should be banned !"
No one has a 'year of school Globish'. (Unless perhaps they have taken a course in Globish® from Globish Solutions Inc.)
Even if they should learn a language somewhat poorly, that by itself cannot be called 'Globish' as described by Robert McCrum in the NYT article.
Tatoeba does not currently accept 'Globish' sentences. That's why it says 'English' (or French, or whatever your highly personal definition of 'Globish' involves.) Some sentences are currently wrong, or unnatural sounding to a native speaker, and they should be corrected, but they are by no means 'Globish' except incidentally or insofar that some proper English sentences are also 'Globish'.
> I don't see why calling this mess "Globish" would be inflammatory since Brits call it that.
*A* Briton called *something* 'Globish'. I don't think he was referring to Tatoeba, nor that he was speaking for all Britons. You might as well call it "this mess", because your tone smacks of it, and at least then you might understand why it could be perceived as inflammatory.
> You're just a rude person.
Me? Non, I'm the sweetest soul you'll ever see. Hypothetically, assuming we will meet, which we will not.
And I edit out all the rude stuff before I post.
> I had no intention of intruding on your discussion of the French language's evolution, I merely thought to inform you that I found your tone opinionated and inflammatory
Welcome to the club...
Because that's how many francophones speak?
And because, in 20 or 30 years, it may very well be the standard?
You can just dream about it. In 20 or 30 years, rules of pronunciation of the French language will not have changed.
I don't really care. But if many young French speakers throw in English words despite growing up in a French-speaking environment, doesn't it make it practical for the learner to learn this French, rather than the classical one?
Not that I think that's great, but it's the price of globalization. In a million years or so, there might only be a single major language.
No, because youngsters don't make the language. There is an administration, Law, Courts, commercial contracts, etc...And these have more weight on the language, as history shows in the case of French.
Eventually, the French that becomes mainstreet is the French that will be acknowledged by authorities, whether you like or not. Sometimes, kids words make it through, but only when they are unambiguous and don't contradict the language pronunciation principles.
> Not that I think that's great, but it's the price of globalization. In a million years or so, there might only be a single major language.
I agree, and the natural selection rules dictates that this unique language will be the most efficient. Thus:
1) Everybody will be able to pronounce it naturally across the world.
2) it will be possible to write words unambiguously from hearing
3) It will be possible to pronounce words unambiguously from writing.
4) it will be possible for everybody to coin new non-ambiguous words from simple rules
5) it will be possible for everybody to decode new words naturally and unambiguously.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1spqX4sIDo
You need to realize that youngsters will one day become as old as you, and then they will be in position to make new rules. And then they'll be complaining about their kids using stupid loan words, but will nevertheless prefer "email" to "courriel".
But it is not the question. Today's youngsters who don't understand how French evolution proceeds will understand it in the course of their life and career.
What you must understand, which makes French fundamentally different from English, is that French Law is written and English Law is not, English law is based on precedence.
And Law is about everything, including sending emails. So everything is inscribed into Law.
So Law defines the language in France, that is subsequently used to govern and administer France, and percolates into business, education, etc...That is precisely why the French state founded the Académie, to help civil servants to define the language as unambiguously as possible.
Eventually, a majority of the population uses the official language because school with official curriculum in official French is mandatory in France and we're not going to use 2 different French when we also want to learn other languages.
Kids are very fine, but they represent a small (and decreasing) fraction of the population and eventually, they will also have to write and abide by contracts written in official French that they have to learn at school anyway.
The problem with contracts is, if their wordings are ambiguous, it makes them void. That is why, ambiguous words and spellings don't usually make it through to the official language. "email" is ambiguous, that is why all references recommend "e-mail"/"courriel"/"mél".
Of course, in informal language such as chat (which is also another ambiguity in French with cat), it is OK because the context is set. But it is bad habit for learners to study informal chat, because it won't help you at work when you need to write unambiguous reports and make speeches in front of audiences who are not part of your subculture.
Not being able to make yourself unambiguously understood by the largest number is a basic mistake, since language is about communication. Or what else ?
And to be honest, this Law, as you present it, seems rather scary.
Well, the French live under these rules since Louis the XIVth and have not deemed necessary to change its fundamentals across a revolution, 2 empires and 5 republics. I think this generation won't either.
We still continue writing ever more laws and contracts and everybody seems happy with that. Actually, I know of no political party or any civic initiative in France advocating the abolition of written Law, the mandatory education in the official language or the Académie. 67 millions of people agreeing on this should be significant enough, don't you think?
Maybe all the world doesn't need to abide by Gordon Brown's principles...
The internet has only become mainstream in the last 10 years...
And it is already written into Law...with official language.
Not my point. Globalization goes quite quickly when there's a good means of transport... and the internet is instantaneous. Of course Law can remain Law for centuries if it takes a year-long journey by boat for people in France to learn that Americans have invented some new word and that it's become really catchy. But now we're breaking those barriers. Loss of culture and liberal changes in the languages are the price paid. I don't see how any country can protect itself from that without blocking the internet.
Nevertheless, French & German courts deal daily with internet issues, including social networks, web translation, etc...and they pronounce statements in languages that are not globish. Doing so, they do exactly what they've done for centuries with other registers. I don't see a difference. See you in 20 years and we'll have a good laugh at it.
I have a good one for you: Lately, the phrase "low-cost" has surfaced in France to refer to airlines such as Ryan Air and means "à prix réduit". Most French pronounce it "low coast", though, which makes it totally absurd.
I bet with you 1000€ that French Law will still refer to "à prix réduit" and will not have adopted "low-cost" in 20 years. A bet?
20 years is too short. Of course you'd win the bet.
There's also the uncertainty of how popular "low-coast" would remain. I don't take bets I've no chances of winning.
In 50 years, however, you would probably be taken aback by some of the things that have been deemed as "acceptable".
Just in case anyone is confused, there is no law that I know of about proper grammar or orthography.
oh yeah?
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad...ran.C3.A7aises
"« Art. 11. - Les termes et expressions publiés au Journal officiel sont obligatoirement utilisés à la place des termes et expressions équivalents en langues étrangères"
Ok, but this only applies to the French administration.
As long as we're on this stupid off-topic subject, let me tell you a little tale about the European Space Agency and it's predecessors ESRO and ELDO. Back when it all started there was a rule that all proposals and reports had to be written in English. You know, so people from all the countries involved would have an equal chance of understanding them (although the UK would have a more equal chance than the others). But the French government went all whiney about having to be able to use its sacred language so the French, alone, of all the European nationalities were given the option of submitting reports in both French AND English.
So, three guesses what actually happened? Half the time the French companies submitted their reports in French only and never bothered to send in English versions.
And so? I'd do exactly the same! Why should Englishprevailin international institution?
Because it's more practical.
you'resoprepsterousandimperialist!Itisjustappallin!
No one can read what you wrote...
Well, on the front page, I guess.
tsss tsss...small player!
Well, then you can veiller over this topic for the French language.
Regarding others, I doubt they have the luxury to remain as well-defined and purist.
Germany and many other countries also have a written Law and subsequently have "official language" definitions and institutions.
Now, if other languages verge on self-destruction through globishisation, that is their speakers' problem, not mine, indeed.
"But that is how it is sold now."
Yes, but if you read my posts, you'll see that I agree with you on that point.
2) "je regarde un anime." and "demain, je vais alunir." should be under the french language flag in my opinion. french people talk like that, english don't.
I understood that already, and replied: It should be in italic. I was addressing the broader problem. Not only yours.
ok
Well, we have to agree on the definition of what "crap" is. And I am not sure I will agree, especially when it come to anglicisms...
crap will be all what is not recognized as french by the authority source (maybe http://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais ? it's both 'up to date' and widely recognised as a 'serious' dictionnary, but it's only a proposition), at least for words, after for grammar pattern I have no online ressource in mind yet.
Well, good news, but:
1) References are written by experts. Experts need to make a living. So most of the time, their work is not free online. So we should not shun an authority because it is not free & online. An authority can perfectly exist on paper only.
2) It is necessary to devise a mechanism to "stamp" a phrase as correct according to this reference.
3) it is necessary to devise a visual mechanism through which a "stamped" phrase is showed in a different way from the way an un-stamped one is (like un-stamped in italic, for instance)
4) Moderators must apply the references.
PS: "email" is not in Larousse :)
(for email yep I agree with you, and it was the example I've taken while chatting with Trang ;-) )
1) I agree, but the problem with "offline" edition is that, not everybody have it, and for "new words", you must have a recent edition. I say that not because somes can lie etc. (I'm sure we're between adults sharing the same goal), but for someone learning French (or other) and wanting to know if such or such word he heards is now commonly accepted as part of the French vocabulary, he will need to know where to search.
Moreover only those having the book will be able to "moderate". But I do agree most of the times these ressource are offline (for shanghainese the only real dictionnary (I'm not talking about all the commercial website pretending teach you "standard shanghainese" etc.) exist only on paper)
So I'm not against paper "authority" reference, but I would prefer, if we're hesitating between one having an online version and one without, to choose the online one.
2/3) I agree
4) Sure, I think once it will be defined, it will be easier to see if a user (and moderator) respect it.
Sentences don't kill Tatoeba. Users kill Tatoeba... (when given sentences).
Yes, it's true, in Spanish we rarely use the personal pronouns, not only yo (I), but also él (he), ella (she), nosotros (we), vosotros, ... For example, I dream - sueño, we talk - hablamos... As the subject is implied in the conjugated forms there's no need of repeating it and if we repeated it, it would sound a bit weird, it wouldn't be the natural language that is encouraged here. But... as these words don't appear like this in a dictionary, only the infinitive forms of the verbs appear... Would these conjugated forms be accepted here?
hi i need somebody to help me translate this into english. a friend sent me this thru email and i just cant figure it out.
thanks.
祖ｒｒｙ位ｍ音ｌｙ部ｓｙ、亜ｎｙ重ｓｔふぉくｓｔ戸込むに勝てと㎡ ｍｒ．ふあんｄ
It isn't Japanese. Actually, much of it is English (sort of).
祖ｒｒｙ位ｍ音ｌｙ部ｓｙ、亜ｎｙ重ｓｔふぉくｓｔ戸込むに勝てと㎡ ｍｒ．ふあんｄ
Sorry I'm only busy, Any ???? Mr. Huand
Probably somebody's playing around.
Whoa, what a language puzzle!
Somebody was playing around or forgot to switch languages from Japanese to English and look at the message before sending. Plus misprints and not very correct English.
Let me try to complete it (the middle part):
... an[d]y o[u]mo st focu st to comunicate to met[h]rough mr. Fuand ?
or
...ju st focu st...
Thus,
'Sorry I'm only busy, and you must/just focus to communicate [to] me through Mr. Fuand' ?
音ly = really?
That would make more sense than "only".
(How many Tatoeba members does it take to solve a nonsensical puzzle?)
Yes, it would, but how come inputting 'real' renders '音'?
I don't know the Japanese input method... Would "on" give you 音?
That's right. 'on', 'ne' or 'oto' would give 音.
I was otoly busy, most likely...
my deepest appreciation. thank you blay_paul...
Would it be possible to extend the "Show All Sentences Not Directly Translated Into..." to "...Not Indirectly Translated Into..."?
This would be really, really useful.
Unfortunately not before the next version of tatoeba,for the moment each "level" of translation increase exponentially the time needed for the request.
you can terminate the other account "thebestfairplay"
but please do not terminate this account. I have many Turkish sentences. Please, I want to add proverbs and other kinds of sentences.
For the moment you're blocked, you've registered some months ago and each weeks you've found new kind of forbidden things, from copying copyrighted sentences, personnal attacks, "google translate" sentences etc. etc.
I know you're a kid, but there's some limits. We've warned you many many times, you've sworn you will add sentences only languages you really speak, and you've continued to add exotic languages, and flooding the wall, private message, and the IRC with 'add this!' 'add this!'
And once I've blocked your account after a last warning, rather than trying to see with us why, you've created an other account pretending to be someone else.
So your account will be blocked in adding sentences still one day or two,
try to think about what you've done
Do Trang and Me have time to spend all our free time to check what you've done ? Don't you think it will be better for tatoeba if we can think "hey they're all mature, so we can improve tatoeba rather than check everything"
So follow the rule, stop acting as a 6 years old child crying 'I want it ! I want it !', and you will be able to continue participating in tatoeba as the other contributors.
I won't make them. Please, I don't make after. I will only add sentences belongs to me. I don't want to ban like what I'm banned from Shtooka. Please.
and only sentences in Turkish, not in plenty of languages in which you're not an expert. Anyway you have a day to think about it.
I'd like the original sentence to be indicated. So I could avoid to translate from a false version.
Cxiuj frazoj estas egalaj...
Bedaŭrinde ne ĉiam.
Kial ne ?
Ni ĉiuj esprimoj en diferencaj lingvoj tute kongruas, kelkaj membroj fuŝe tradukas.
Jes sed fusxa traduka eble estas ankaux valida frazo...
Kiam traduko estas fusxa, necesas korekti aux malligi gxin.
Antaŭ nelonge mi trovis frazon kun kvarfoje 'venas' kaj dufoje 'iras'. Ĉar mi ne scipovas la japanan mi eĉ nur vidi unu 'iras' - tion mi eksciis nur de la aŭtoro. Se mi de komence konas la originalon mi havas la ŝancon resti plej eble proksima al ĝi; cetere por tiu tasko plej bone funkcias Esperanto!
Teorie, Tatoeba rekomendas nur rektan, senperan tradukon. Ne konsideru malrektan tradukon http://blog.tatoeba.org/2010/02...eba.html#rule3
Mi komprenas ke vi rifuzas sekvi mian proponon - ĉu por Tatoeba? Se jes tiam ne plu atendu respondon de mi. Kolektu mem spertojn pri sintenoj de la uzantoj. Ne kalkulu je mia apogo.
Da du - falls ich mit meinem schlechten Esperanto das richtig verstehe - fragst, ob Sacredceltic für Tatoeba spricht: Der Blogeintrag, den er gepostet hat, ist sowas wie das "offizielle Regelwerk" von Tatoeba. Die Grundidee ist, dass Sätze nur mit denjenigen Sätzen übereinstimmen müssen, mit denen sie DIREKT verlinkt sind (dass ein Satz direkt verlinkt ist, sieht man daran, dass der Pfeil links vor dem Satz grün ist, und nicht grau wie bei indirekten Verlinkungen). Wenn du einen Satz übersetzt wird deine Übersetzung nur mit den Satz, den du beim Übersetzungvorgang sehen kannst, direkt verlinkt. Dass dieser Satz und deine Übersetzung zusammenpassen ist also alles, was zählt. Wenn der Satz zusätzlich mit anderen übereinstimmt, kann er von trusted_usern und Moderatoren von Hand mit diesen direkt verlinkt werden.
Na, da gibt es aber viel zu entlinken - wer die Arbeit auch immer machen wird - ich nicht.
Falls du damit sagen willst, dass du eventuell mal den "Originalsatz" übersetzt hast, statt den Satz, der beim übersetzen sichtbar ist (?) - keine Sorge, dazu sind wir eine Gemeinschaft, das wird alles nach und nach korrigiert werden.
Danke übrigens für deine vielen Beiträge =)!
Ne ne ! Mi ne parolas en la nomo de Tatoeba. Mi ne estas moderigulo. Mi estas simpla uzanto de Tatoeba kiu parolas la esperantan.
Sed vi devas kompreni ke "original" signifas nenion en Tatoeba.
La principo estas ke una frazo A tradukas en alia frazo B en alia lingvo. Se la frazo A ankaux tradukas en la frazo C en la sama lingvo aux alia, ne signifas ke C tradukas A. En efekto, multaj frazoj havas ambiguajn signifojn kaj Tatoeba volas reprezenti cxiujn. Sed se vi ne aprobas tradukon, vi povas protesti kun komentoj kaj la moderiguloj moderigos. Ili povas sxangxi la tradukon aux, pli ofte, malligi la frazojn kiujn ne tradukas.
*ke C tradukas B...
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/514824
I don't think "ゆっくり話して下さい。" as natural japanese.
I want to add more sentences but I can't add new sentences. If you allow me for adding sentences, I will be very glad. Because i'm not a vandal. I'm having fun with adding sentences in Tatoeba.
When I display my sentences, i saw an empty page when opening sentence. But this problem is solved for me, I can't add sentences anymore. This is a bug? But other users can add sentences. If you solve my problem i will be very glad from solving problem.