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Mi bezonas spertulon pri Esperanto, bonvolu por pliaj informoj skribu al: Brigitte Monfort, retadreso: bmonfort@mail.com
English native speakers:
I recollected disowned sentences that
1.- Have zero translations. No user has translated them, and it's very likely that they sound unnatural to native and non-native speakers:
http://www.divshare.com/download/17569844-37c
Total: 39
2.- Only one link, and the opposite translation has been translated many times. There were too many of these so I selected some of the oldest (If they weren't translated for so long, it's most likely that they may sound unnatural to native or non-native speakers)
http://www.divshare.com/download/17569845-a55
Total: 800
The file includes the text of the sentence along with a link to it.
I hope this can be of help.
Liebes Tatoeba-Team,
ich habe Frage zu japanischen Texten, die mir die FAQ leider nicht beantworten konnten:
Ich lerne gerade japanisch, und verwende dazu "Kotoba!", die, soweit ich gelesen hatte, eure Datenbank für Beispielsätze mit verwendet.
Bei einigen Beispielsätzen war mir aufgefallen dass z.B. die Romaji-umschrift nicht immer mit dem japansichen Originalsatz übereinstimmt.
Ich hatte auch gelesen, dass viele japansiche Sätze ursprünglich aus einer anderen Datenbank stammen.
Danach hatte ich nachschauen wollen wie die Eingabe hier überhaupt funktioniert, da sie ja per Moseover des Ruby-textes erscheint.
Ich habe bemerkt dass ich zwar einen japanischen Satz eingeben könnte, aber nicht den zweiten schritt mit Ruby/Furigana, oder die im Mouseover erscheinende Romaji-Umschrift.
Braucht man dazu ein zusätzliches Tool? Oder werden die ruby/samt Umschrift von euch per hand eingegeben?
Wenn ich einen solchen Fehler in der Umschrift entdecke reicht es dem Besitzer des Satzes bescheid zu geben, und dieser kann die Änderung vornehmen, oder muss ich mich an jemand anderes Wenden?
Ich hoffe das ist jetzt nicht schon zu speziell für’s Diskussionsforum.
Vielen Dank übrigens für eure tolle Arbeit – die vielen japansichen Beispielsätze haben mir schon sehr viel geholfen!
Viele Grüße
Nadine
Die Lesehilfen (mit Furigana oder in lateinischen Buchstaben) werden automatisch erzeugt und können (leider noch) nicht manuell verändert werden. Vielfach stimmen die Lesungen, aber es kommt gelegentlich auch zu solchen, die falsch oder so nicht beabsichtigt sind. In diesen Fällen bleibt uns nichts anderes übrig, als in einem Kommentar darauf hinzuweisen. Man sollte sich daher auch nicht allzusehr auf die angegebenen Lesungen verlassen, sondern sie nur als Hilfe verstehen.
Hallo alle zusammen,
was passiert eigentlich mit Sätzen und Übersetzungen die auf Tatoeba zusammengehören, aber vom Sinn her nicht richtig sind sind?
Z.B. hatte ich gerade einen Satz (#1039526) mit 4 englischen Versionen: 2x "He did …", 2x "She did …"
Und die deutsche Übersetzung war "Ich tat …"="I did …".
Bleibt das so stehen, oder korrigiert das jemand?
Schöne Grüße
Nadine
Hallo Nadine! Bei diesem speziellen Satz gibt es im Moment nur eine direkte Übersetzung (ins Spanische). Direkte Übersetzungen erkennst du am grünen Pfeil und indirekte Übersetzungen am grauen Pfeil. Indirekte Übersetzungen sind Übersetzungen von Übersetzungen. Da in diesem Fall der spanische Satz mehrere Bedeutungen hat, ergeben sich die unterschiedlichen indirekten Übersetzungen für den englischen Satz. Das ist ganz normal und es besteht kein Handlungsbedarf.
Nadine is right about this particular sentence, the English sentences don't match the Spanish one, the Spanish sentence says just "I", not "he/she".
Now it should be OK.
I didn't catch that. :) Still, indirect translations can potentially be miles off.
what do you catch, exactly ?
Didn't Sysko have a word with you?
does sysko determine your speed at catching things ?
Enquanto gerava uma lista com as palavras em português ainda não presentes em Tatoeba, encontrei alguns dados interessantes que gostaria de compartilhar.
Considerando iguais as palavras iniciadas com letra maiúscula e minúscula, incluindo nomes próprios, ignorando possíveis erros de ortografia ou troca de idioma, podemos fazer algumas estimativas a respeito do conteúdo em língua portuguesa presente no sítio, a saber:
— A palavra mais comum é a preposição "de", que aparece 15.608 vezes.
— Há 70.896 sentenças.
— Há 497.570 palavras.
— Destas palavras, apenas 25.068 são distintas entre si.
— Cada sentença contém em média 7 palavras.
— Considerando os verbetes contidos no Minidicionário Aurélio da Língua Portuguesa, de apenas 30 mil verbetes e locuções (um dicionário comum contém cerca de 450 mil), levando em conta todas as conjugações e algumas declinações possíveis, Tatoeba contém apenas 5,94% do léxico considerado.
Dados de 28/04/2012.
A suggestion for the tag system. I hope it doesn't seem too far-fetched.
The main purpose is to bring more language freedom and equity in every aspect of the project (it may thus seem odd that I'm writing this in English; I would have wrote this in Esperanto but I'm still too green for it).
Briefly, tags should be translatable so as to be able to display them in your interface language of choice.
This could be obtained by making some sentences able to be used as tags; it would probably mean a lot of work but it could be a nice idea to keep into consideration for the future.
>it may thus seem odd that I'm writing this in English
verdire...
>This could be obtained by making some sentences able to be used as tags
en la sekva versio de Tatoeba : la mitologia metadato !!!
It doesn't seem all that absurd to me. I'm not an expert but I know and can use PHP, MySQL and other languages oriented to web programming, and I know this could be possible, despite requiring quite some work.
I thought you were one of, if not the, most caring user of the project when it comes to language equity; it's a shame that such good attitudes are bond to coexist with so much sarcasm.
>I thought you were one of, if not the, most caring user of the project when it comes to language equity; it's a shame that such good attitudes are bond to coexist with so much sarcasm.
I still am and I'm not happy at all that tags are only in English. It is an open wound. But at the same time, I understand sysko is working alone on this and that represents a lot of work to set a metadata that will be translatable with all the associated functionalities (searches, direct access to lists, etc.)
I think this is part of next version.
If you dig in the old posts on the wall, you will see that this subject has already been discussed extensively along with the idea of relying on the corpus itself to translate tags (or at least on the corpus structure, since some contributors are avid non-sentence busters). I think the whole User Interface should refer to the corpus so as not to need Launchpad anymore for Interface translations...
Then we basically agree. I understand the heavy load sysko has on his shoulders at the moment; if I felt I were able to relieve him of part of the work, I would.
My intention was only that of throwing a suggestion, surely not that of adding more burden to an already more than sufficiently heavy load.
Perhaps I'll dig in the old posts as you suggest, and see what the ideas were.
Je constate que beaucoup de phrases en doublon sont toujours supprimées manuellement par les gestionnaires du corpus alors que ça fait perdre les commentaires.
Je pense que c'est d'ailleurs l'objet de l'opération dans certains cas.
Ça s'apparente à une forme de censure...
Oui, je suis bien d'accord avec toi. Pourquoi supprimer manuellement les phrases en doublon si nous avons un script qui fait le service ? Ces phrases ne sont pas notre priorité. Il y a beaucoup de phrases à corriger, à adopter...
Orphan sentences in
English: 40500 results!
French: 8131 results!
Spanish: 19 results!
@needs native check
English: 116 pages!
French: 30 pages!
Spanish: 8 pages!
Je pense que Tatoeba est plus qu'un site de traduction. C'est une communauté, et il y a des milliers de fautes qui doivent être corrigées... Il faut agir !
Travaillons !
Je milite depuis fort longtemps pour l'élimination pure et simple des phrases orphelines restantes...
Elles sont le cancer de Tatoeba.
En moyenne, j'en adopte moins de 2% en français, et la raison pour laquelle je n'adopte pas les autres 98% est qu'elles sont mauvaises...
Travaillons ! +100
I agree, though it should be made independently for each language, and with the consensus of two or more native speakers.
Right now, I went through every unadopted sentence in Spanish, and there's nothing I could adopt from there. If another non-Chilean user might check them too, I'd agree to have them deleted.
There's something I don't understand: how do you agree if you yourself abandon all your sentences in English?
However, I guess I'll adopt my own English sentences until unadopted English sentences cease to be a problem.
In my opinion, if one is not up to take responsibility to correct what he writes, he shouldn't write it in the first place. The @needs native check and OK tags are here for the precise purpose of quality checking the sentences.
There's no rule on having to adopt only sentences in one's native language, and de-adopting sentences one wrote out of uncertainty, as we have just seen, causes unnecessary chaos in the project.
Orphan sentences create work for the whole project contributors, while adopted sentences only do that on the behalf of the adopter; there's no need to drop our responsibilities on the others, so we should each keep our own sentences and be ready to fix them if needed; by corrections, we learn.
The only possible reason I see to un-adopt one's sentence would be if (s)he wants to leave the project.
not necessarily,
Personally, I'd be grateful that a non-native user would unadopt his/her Spanish sentences,
that way, if a trustworthy user adopts them, you can rest assured they are good translations.
Personally, when I look at foreign sentences, I could naively trust every one of them, but I don't, I look for sentences owned by trustworthy speakers, and I believe they won't be misleading.
That's why we have the "OK" tag. Every sentence should be proofread by native speakers... we must work on other people's sentences and tag them (CK with English, sacredceltic with French, you with Spanish, etc).
I know many users do this, but we need more.
If sentences are correctly tagged, there are no differences between "native" and "foreign" sentences.
I use the "OK" tag as well, but the problem is that only a handful of people can actually add tags. Everyone can (only native speakers should) adopt a sentence and even for advanced contributors it's less hassle to adopt a sentence. One click and you're done.
I see, but we still have thousands of abandoned sentences... as we can see, the problem is discipline.
It's time to establish goals...
But orphaned sentences aren't any worse than sentences owned by non-native speakers. Compared to a lot of non-native speakers who own English sentences, Borat speaks the Queen's English. I'm just saying.
I didn't say they are, but I think we should be more disciplined (especially corpus maintainers) and check both adopted and unadopted sentences.
That is obvious and I agree, but unadopted sentences should be considered as being in a temporary state: if they stay there too long, they should be made eligible for deletion.
Wrong sentences which are adopted by an user make it seem like he tried to get a good sentence. Equally bad sentences who are disadopted make it seem like they hid their hand just after doing it, and there's no further difference between the two.
Everyone should be able to write a sentence in any language he knows; not being native doesn't mean one is automatically wrong, and as far as one is ready to correct his own errors when someone more knowledgeable points them out, it's fine. Unadopted sentences are instead a mass of random attempts who weren't even tried at their best: they're bets made by someone who didn't want to risk nor gain anything from it.
In my opinion, we should work to adopt as much correct sentences as possible, then decide a date for a purge of all the unadopted sentences, and from then onward, do that regularily.
In the meantime we should tag our mother tongues' sentences as needed (thing that, among others, I would be glad to be doing myself whenever the admins have time to reply to my PM).
Well, it seems like you're not getting the point in unadopting sentences.
I am, though I prefer practical and actual results to mere theoretical assumptions. People doesn't do what one expect them to do, so we should adapt to them, not the opposite.
They won't adopt the sentences just because they're fine to their eye, so we shouldn't unadopt ours in the first place especially if the only point we expect in that would be seeking their approval by adoption (and again, this function is already provided by the @change and OK tags).
I agree
> In my opinion, if one is not up to take responsibility to correct what he writes, he shouldn't write it in the first place.
I totally agree.
+100
Thanks.
if several native users look at my unowned sentences and won't adopt them, I asume they are poor translation.
That's why I would only agree when at least two or three native users verify there's nothing to do with ANY of them
I've just adopted the sentences that sounded OK to me, but there are some sentences with voseo that I can't judge.
[some message have been removed]
Intéressant ce soudain afflux de turcophones anonymes qui créent tous chacun une douzaine de phrases. Une sorte de phénomène épidémique à contagion rapide...
Une classe ?
à voir au vu de l'heure et du fuseau horaire turque. Je regarderai les logs des addresses ip voir si elles sont identiques (ce sera le cas s'ils font en classe) ou dans la même zone géographique (si c'est plus des devoirs à la maison) (bien que personnellement au vu de l'age qu'a mis l'un d'entre eux, ça serait surement des jeunes lycéens, enfin l'équivalent, et autant encadrer de très cela peut-être utile, autant en simple devoir à la maison c'est plus compliqués, sauf si le professeur regarde les phrases le soir, et fais une compilation des fautes pour le prochain cour)
ben je trouve que c'est une bonne idée éducative...
Pardon je n'ai pas vraiment développé le fond de ma pensée,
Je voulais dire qu'en dehors du temps "en classe", surtout comme là si c'est la première fois qu'ils utilisent le système, sans séance d'initiation préalables (vu que certains semblent avoir ajouté sans ponctuation des phrases par exemples), cela diminuerait de beaucoup l'intérêt de la chose, de plus le faire en "groupe" permet de pouvoir en passant "dans les rangs" (ce qui la est facilité par le fait que le processeur a en un clic les contributions de ces élèves, beaucoup plus simple que de devoir regarder chaque réponse papier des élèves derrière le purpitre, pouvoir arrêter la classe si une erreur devient fréquente (par exemple l'oubli de la ponctuation, ou l'erreur propre à l'usage de tatoeba de traduire une langue en pensant en traduire une autre)
Sinon oui je pense qu'un professeur un tant soit peu inventif et impliqués peut arriver à trouver moult autre activités possible (CK m'en avait déjà montré plusieurs). Après je sais que si j'étais en France et que j'avais un peu plus de temps libre, je serais aller voir mon ancien prof de classes européenne (typiquement le genre de section où le prof a une plus grande liberté sur comment il occupe ces heures additionnelles de langues, qui plus est avec des groupes plus restreints que des classes normales)
Welcome to Tatoeba Grim_Fandango.
It would be nice if you showed your languages in your profile.:)
I want to contribute Vietnamese UI Language. How can I ? Will I be on my own or join a group ?
You can translate the Tatoeba interface on Launchpad:
https://translations.launchpad.net/tatoeba/
You'll have to register there first.
Currently there are no Vietnamese translations, so it's likely you'll work on your own (unless someone joins you).
When the translation is ready, you have to contact the Tatoeba admin (sysko) and he will add it to the list.
Там можно тупо брать и переводить (на украинский) или надо как-то регистрироваться?
А... Так, я побачив, що там треба реєструватися...