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Cumle #196594

info_outline Metadata
warning
Cumleya şima nêamê îlawekerdene çunke cêrênî xora estê.
Cumle #{{vm.sentence.id}} – aîdê {{vm.sentence.user.username}} ya Cumle #{{vm.sentence.id}}
{{vm.sentence.furigana.info_message}} {{vm.sentence.text}}
star Na cumle aîdê qiseykerdoxêko/a ziwanê dayîke ya.
warning Na cumle muteber nîya.
content_copy Cumle kopya bike info Şo rîpelê cumle
subdirectory_arrow_right
warning
{{transcription.info_message}}
Açarnayîşî
Lînkê nê açarnayîşî wedarne link Bike açarnayîşo raşteraşt chevron_right
{{translation.furigana.info_message}} {{translation.text}} Cumleya mewcûde #{{::translation.id}} sey açarnayîşêk amê îlawekerdene.
edit Nê açarnayîşî pergal bike
warning Na cumle muteber nîya.
content_copy Cumle kopya bike info Şo rîpelê cumle
subdirectory_arrow_right
warning
{{transcription.info_message}}
Açarnayîşanê açarnayîşan
Lînkê nê açarnayîşî wedarne link Bike açarnayîşo raşteraşt chevron_right
{{translation.furigana.info_message}} {{translation.text}} Cumleya mewcûde #{{::translation.id}} sey açarnayîşêk amê îlawekerdene.
edit Nê açarnayîşî pergal bike
warning Na cumle muteber nîya.
content_copy Cumle kopya bike info Şo rîpelê cumle
subdirectory_arrow_right
warning
{{transcription.info_message}}
{{vm.expandableIcon}} {{vm.sentence.expandLabel}} Hîna tay açarnayîşî

Şiroveyî

CK CK May 20, 2024, May 20, 2024 de ame/ê pergalkerdene May 20, 2024 at 1:20:49 AM UTC, May 20, 2024 at 1:22:36 AM UTC de ame/ê pergalkerdene flag Report link Lînko payîdar

@JimBreen @small_snow @bunbuku #KK_kaku_ #tommy_san

While these are both correct, I wonder if it might not be a good idea to standardize sentences that end with か。and か? to avoid these kinds of near duplicates. This would merge all translations of either into translations of one sentence.

jpn
ペンを貸していただけますか。
jpn
ペンを貸していただけますか?

Any opinions?

JimBreen JimBreen May 20, 2024 May 20, 2024 at 1:42:35 AM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

I think standardizing them would be a good idea. I'd prefer just "...か。" as I feel the use of "?" is redundant when the sentence ends in "か", but I'd leave that to the experts.
FWIW I don't use #11559606 as an example sentence; just #196594.

CK CK May 20, 2024 May 20, 2024 at 1:50:03 AM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

I suspect that the ? may be more common with modern writers, but I would leave the decision up to our native speakers.

small_snow small_snow May 20, 2024, May 20, 2024 de ame/ê pergalkerdene May 20, 2024 at 12:11:09 PM UTC, May 20, 2024 at 12:38:48 PM UTC de ame/ê pergalkerdene flag Report link Lînko payîdar

どうしても統一して欲しいと言われるのであれば、ガイドラインに記述していただければ、それに従いますが、それって関節代名詞のthatがあるかないかの違いに似てる気がします。

あと、「!」か 「.」か。読点「、」や「,」があるかないか。

また、例えば、Tatoebaのシステムで、似た表現が既にある場合は、文を追加をしようとする際に候補を出してくれる機能があるのなら対応できるけど、そうでなければ投稿に手間が掛かるし、実用的ではないように思います。
※私達(ここにいる日本語ネイティブ)は、意識的に「。」と「?」の重複を行っている人はいないと思います)

コーパスという立場で、ネイティブには自分が日常使っている表現をいかに自然に投稿できるか(教科書にはない表現豊かな投稿)、そこに集中できるようにするほうが有意義だと、私は思います。

「。」の文を採用するか「?」を採用するかは、コーパスを利用する方の判断にお任せしたいと言うのが本音です。

ちなみに、私の知る限りでは、日本の小学校の教科書のガイドラインには「『か』のあとの『?』はつけないとなっていると思います。『?』は慣習的についていると、私は、認識しています。

私の認識に間違いがあるようでしたら、お知らせください。改めて、今後の参考にしたいと思います。

JimBreen JimBreen May 22, 2024 May 22, 2024 at 2:15:17 AM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

I guess I don't really mind either way, but I think we shouldn't have otherwise identical sentences that differ only by "?" and "。".

bunbuku bunbuku May 22, 2024 May 22, 2024 at 2:55:26 AM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

@small_snow
+1

私が新規に追加する場合、語尾が上がり口調の時は「?」をつけるようにしています。特に音声がない文章は、学習者も発音のイメージが掴みやすいのではないでしょうか。

「。」の文でも間違いではないので、そういう文もアダプトしてきましたが、そういった文に気付かず、酷似している文を投稿していたかもしれません。

CK CK May 22, 2024 May 22, 2024 at 2:57:37 AM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

I agree with JimBreen's last comment.

It would likely be beneficial to have all translationis of such "duplicates except for punctuation" merged to one Japanese sentence.

small_snow small_snow May 22, 2024, May 22, 2024 de ame/ê pergalkerdene May 22, 2024 at 10:28:20 AM UTC, May 22, 2024 at 10:28:51 AM UTC de ame/ê pergalkerdene flag Report link Lînko payîdar

私は、JimBreen氏およびCK氏の意見に合意致しかねますので、この件につきましては、申し訳ございませんが、他の方にご相談ください。
なお、ガイドライン等で明記していただければ、私が所有している文につきましては、ガイドラインに従った形に随時変更させていただこうと思います。よろしくお願いいたします。

JimBreen JimBreen May 22, 2024 May 22, 2024 at 11:42:39 PM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

The comment about the raised tone is interesting. I remember one of my early teachers describing the importance of the raised tone when a sentence ends with か, but I hadn't thought of "?" flagging the intonation,

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License: CC BY 2.0 FR

Dekewtişî

Ma hema nêeşkenîme dîyar bikerîme ke na cumle açarnayîşêk ra virazîyaya yan ney.

#33774

hetê endamêko/a nenas/e ra ame girêdayene, tarîx nêzanîyeno

ペンを貸していただけますか。

hetê endamêko/a nenas/e ra ame îlawekerdene, tarîx nêzanîyeno

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