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हमारा उद्देश्य सभ्य चर्चाओं के लिए एक स्वस्थ वातावरण बनाए रखना है। कृपया हमारे बुरे व्यवहार के विरुद्ध नियम पढ़ें।
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Thursday WWWJDIC examples update summary.
36 records deleted.
17 new records.
double-indirect-links and 'do-not-link!' links.
I think it would be useful to, possibly as an option, show sentences that are 'three times removed'. That is not linked as a translation, not indirectly-linked as a translation of a translation but double-indirect-linked as a translation of a translation of a translation.
It is at this level that you often get accidental duplicates (and near duplicates) being added. The person adding a new translation can't see that there is already one very like it just a few clicks away.
Do-not-link links.
Some sentences in the same 'web' of translations do not match each other and should not be linked. e.g.
A: I went to see him yesterday.
B: 昨日あいつに会いに行った。
C: I went to see her yesterday.
A matches B, and B matches C but A does not match C.
It would be nice if you could put a "do not link" (X) between A and C instead of C showing up as a normal indirect link. This would be a way of saying "We know these don't match, it isn't a mistake."
I've been meaning to bring up the same point, but feared I would sound repetitive. Hasn't somebody mentioned this idea somewhere at some point? I forget what was the reason for not implementing it (well, it's probably a lot of coding, again...)
But yea, I agree. Adding the third layer would be really, really helpful - especially when doing the chain translating. I also think that it's very true that this is where the majority of duplicates come from.
I think sysko said something about this being planned for the new version. It would be very useful indeed to be able to crank up or down the number of nodes one should go through to find related sentences.
Not the least for linking a new translation. Often when translating English sentences into Icelandic, I see that one of xtofu's translation of the Japanese matches the Icelandic. This is the reason I set up my manual linker. It's a bit annoying and the ability to see more distantly related sentences would make life a lot easier.
As for the do-not-match links, these could be one specific example of the "qualified links" that are also planned with the new version. :-)
Looks like there’s something wrong with the “show random sentences” feature — when you search for random Cantonese sentences, only those with English characters are shown.
my bad, it's corrected now :)
Thanks for the quick fix, sysko! :-D
** Public service announcement: Maintenance tags **
There has been some discussion on IRC regarding standardisation of maintenance related tags and moderators, Pharamp in particular, have requested that trusted users use slightly more descriptive tags to label sentences that need changing.
The suggested split uses four tags:
- @change grammar
- @change spelling
- @change punctuation
- @change language
There has been some debate whether this is actually useful. I'm personally not convinced, but trying it out is harmless and will give us the experience we need to have an informed discussion of how to manage these issues most efficiently.
There seems, however, to be general agreement that we should deprecate @check in favour of
- @translation check (for issues with translations)
- @Needs Native Check (for issues with sentences)
The naming of @NNC has been debated, but in the interest of solving one problem at a time, I figure we'll leave this for the time being.
In the last set of tags there are:
- @possible copyright violation
- @delete
that are pretty self explanatory.
Finally, as mentioned in a comment to another wall post[1] these tags should always come with a comment outlining the perceived issue.
For a handy overview of these with links to the list of tagged sentences on Tatoeba, see
http://martin.swift.is/tatoeba/mods.html
[1] http://tatoeba.org/eng/wall/show_message/2764
...and also it’s easier to look for the sentences that need attention with just one @tag, at least unless we have an advanced tag search that allows to look for «@change grammar AND @change spelling AND @change punctuation».
Ditto.
My impression was that Pharamp had the support of enough @change patrollers to give this a go. I personally agree that it's wiser to keep them in under one tag, seeing how the comments should make it obvious what the issue is and a proficient speaker is generally needed to ensure the fix is correct.
As I understand her argument, the split would be helpful for moderators able to complete simple tasks such as adding periods, fix capitalisation or the language flag. Please wait for her to give a more accurate account of it.
We could perhaps revive the @moderator tag or set up a new one for such simple tasks that don't require one to be proficient in the language in question to take action.
>The suggested split uses four tags:
> - @change grammar
> - @change spelling
> - @change punctuation
> - @change language
Do you mind my containing use "@change" for East-Slavic languages? It’s likely I’ll be changing them anyway, but @change is easier to type (and I don’t really see advantages of this split).
I think you will done all the work soon.
(Sanırım yakında tüm işleri bitirirsiniz.)
for all the admins.
Concerning "Needs Native Check" tags:
Can there be an unofficial rule of etiquette to leave a comment when you tag sentences that aren't your own? I find it particularly hard to look at a sentence that's been NNC-tagged but doesn't have an owner, because I don't know who to discuss the changes with. It's also not clear what might need changing sometimes, since the sentences will be linked to multiple languages, and unless I know them, I am completely in the dark with regard to how my suggestion may change the translation accuracy.
I'm just in the process of writing a little wall post about maintenance tags where this is touched on. Essentially, any @change* or @check tag should come with a comment.
The @NNC tag implies that the sentence may not be natural speech and any change to it shouldn't change the meaning. In cases where the change is great enough to warrant reviewing the other sentences, add "@check translation" to the linked sentences and a comment about the change to the (now) formerly @NNC-ed sentence.
As for with who you should have the discussion, the @NNC tagger has (in particular if (s)he didn't leave a comment) implied that (s)he isn't able to judge whether the sentence isn't natural anywhere -- only that it seems strange to him/her. That user may therefore not be the best person to talk to. In that case I suggest just leave a comment and wait for another @check patroller comes along.
But yes, we should certainly encourage the general guideline to add comments on sentences that one adds maintenance tags to.
> "The @NNC tag implies that the sentence may not be natural speech and any change to it shouldn't change the meaning. In cases where the change is great enough to warrant reviewing the other sentences, add "@check translation" to the linked sentences and a comment about the change to the (now) formerly @NNC-ed sentence."
I would argue (and have argued :-) that these are more closely linked than that, because it is very easy to change the meaning and translation accuracy of a sentence while making it more "natural" (in fact, both you and CK almost fell into this trap just recently on one of sysko's sentences - but thankfully it was his sentence and so he was able to explain the meaning).
My biggest complaint is mainly with sentences where things are so, for lack of better word, "weird" that I don't know which natural-sounding variant to propose because I don't know the languages it's linked to. If it's the owner who places the tag, it's fine, because I can ask and they will clarify what exactly they're not sure about (in my experience, the native checker does not always get the meaning of the other language on the first try). When the sentence is orphaned, I can of course leave a comment, but there's no guarantee that it won't fade into oblivion (although, given blay_paul's diligence, it generally doesn't).
I'm completely sympathetic to the view that links can become incorrect once a sentence is fixed. I've even mentioned to Trang adding too many links without the ability to follow up on who made these can cause problems with that.
I absolutely agree that there can be issues where the two, translation and sentence checks, overlap. In these cases I've tagged sentences as both.
In your weird sentence case, just change the sentence to what you consider the most likely one (or just pick one at random), mention the others in a comment, point to it in comments on the linked sentences and tag them with "@translation check".
See: http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/39223 for an example of a sentence where a "fix" led to checks on translations after which some sentences were kept linked and others re-linked to an alternative variant.
> "In your weird sentence case, just change the sentence to what you consider the most likely one (or just pick one at random), mention the others in a comment, point to it in comments on the linked sentences and tag them with "@translation check"."
Not that I'm lazy or anything, but that's a *lot* of work for an orphaned sentence... Few would be willing to do that. Especially when the sentence has a lot of direct translations.
It's either that or wait for a person who knows all the languages. Often that simply isn't possible (as was the case in the sentence linked). Translations are added to unnatural sentences by people who reckon they get the meaning but don't catch the problems with it.
If trusted users or moderators furthermore add links between sentences that they don't own or have commented on, that complicates the matter even further. The only solution is to bring the matter to the attention of all parties.
Yes, it's a lot of work. I know. I've done it a few times already.
The first step is to tag (with one or both of the check-tags) and leave a comment on the sentence. That'll make sure that it will be dealt with eventually.
> It's either that or wait for a person who knows all the languages.
Exactly. No person will know all the languages, but from a probability standpoint, the tagger or the owner would be more likely to know more of them.
But yea, the problem grows very complicated very quickly as people translate/link... There needs to be something in the interface to handle this, cause the lot-of-work method won't be practical. I think you'd agree that few will take the time to do all that, and even if they do, it's just for 1 sentence out of 500,000+...
You're right that the tagger is more likely to know at least some of the languages (as that's how he in most probability got there). Some mass-commenting on the linked sentences will be needed and a more practical means of dealing with it would be nice.
I've mentioned to Trang that I think it would be useful to have "owners" of links as well as sentences. That would be one way to get the attention of the interested parties.
Until then, it's all manual. Well, maybe. As I was writing my last comment I got to thinking that it might not be too difficult to write a script to send comments to all sentences linked to a specific sentence and tag them with "@translation check". I could look into it if you're interested.
> I've mentioned to Trang that I think it would be
> useful to have "owners" of links as well as
> sentences.
Theoretically they do have owners, since all linking is recorded in the database.
Except for the early ones... I think that many of those are linked by "unknown".
I guess one could then adopt the orphan links by un-and re-linking them (or kidnap other people's ;-) ).
> I've mentioned to Trang that I think it would be useful to have "owners" of links as well as sentences. That would be one way to get the attention of the interested parties.
I completely agree with you here. There currently seems to be a duality in Tatoeba between the quality of an individual sentence and the translations it has. If ratings ever come to be realized, this will also resurface as a problem (what do you rate - the naturalness of some given sentence, or the translation?) IMO, the translation is the most important as it is clear who's the responsible party for *both* the naturalness and translation of the two sentences. The only time an owner of any given sentence would play a crucial role would be when he/she creates a sentence from scratch and leaves it untranslated (but as soon as someone does translate it, that someone also takes partial responsibility for the original sentence).
Anyway, it's all a lot of work, and probably wouldn't come for a long, long time unless sysko wins the lottery...
> As I was writing my last comment I got to thinking that it might not be too difficult to write a script to send comments to all sentences linked to a specific sentence and tag them with "@translation check".
This would still require going through and leaving comments on all the tagged sentences, since it wouldn't be clear which link the check refers to.
Not necessarily. The comments could also be generated automatically.
> Please check this is a good match for the following sentence:
> http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/395931
I also suggest renaming the tag. The currect wording prevents us from adding in to Latin sentences. :)
Eh... That's the fate those languages suffer.
I think you will done all the work soon.
(Sanırım yakında tüm işleri bitirirsiniz.)
I sent a message to larry ewing about his biography (early life, career, personal life, marriages, languages)
but larry ewing not answered until now.
J'ai reçu plusieurs commentaires qui me demandaient de mettre un espace avant un ! ou un ?
Les premières fois je l'ai fait en pensant que c'était un règle que j'avais oublié, mais après avoir fait des recherches, j'ai trouvé qu'au Canada on ne met pas d'espace.
http://www.noslangues-ourlangua...ation-fra.html
http://www.noslangues-ourlangua...ation-fra.html
Est ce les phrases francaises sur Tatoeba devraient toujours suivre le style préféré de la France?
Tu as mal lu la règle de ta propre référence qui dit "En typographie, on recommande de mettre une espace fine avant le point d’exclamation, mais les logiciels de traitement de texte courants ne permettent pas de le faire."
Or ici, tu es sur un ordinateur et donc tu as la possibilité de mettre cette espace fine. Donc tu dois le mettre.
Je ne vois pas la règle que tu as cité. Ce que j'ai lu c'est:
On ne met pas d'espace avant le point d'interrogation, et on met une seule espace après :
Aimez-vous cueillir des pommes? Moi, j'adore ça.
Qu'est-ce que tu ne comprends pas dans la règle énoncé dans ta propre référence: "En typographie, on recommande de mettre une espace fine avant le point d’exclamation"
Il s'agit bien de typographie, non ? Un clavier, une application informatique, des textes qui s'impriment, c'est de la typographie. Tout le monde sait ça. Y compris l'administrateur de ce site qui a été la première à me le dire.
Tu distingues maintenant le problème des ! et des ?
C'est ridicule ! La règle est la même pour tous les double-points !
Bon de toutes façons je le mets à changer. Si tu le rejette, tu devras mieux le justifier. En attendant, les modérateurs le changeront si tu ne le fais pas. Ca sera d'ailleurs bientôt automatisé. Contacte Trang si tu veux faire changer cette règle.
Calm down, calm down.
Dans la page du point d'interrogation, il n'y a pas ce passage, sacredceltic. Il est présent seulement dans la page du point d'exclamation, donc adjusting peut être ne l'a pas vu.
En tous cas, c'est évident que le site ignore cette règle pour les point d'interrogation, donc adjusting a un bon motif pour "insister" sur le sujet.
Si la règle n'est pas utilisée au Canada, c'est pas un si grand problème pour Tatoeba. On reverra ça avec Trang et sysko quand il y aura le temps, il y a tellement de phrases sans espace qu'il faudra en tous cas un script.
Soyez sages.
Il n'y a aucune règle de ponctuation canadienne qui concernerait le point d'exclamation et pas le point d'interrogation. c'est extravagant !
Adjusting ne veut juste pas admettre qu'il est influencé par la règle anglo-saxonne de ne pas mettre d'espace et qui concerne l'anglais.
Eh bien j'ai une mauvaise nouvelle pour lui: C'est une forme d'anglicisme, rien d'autre. C'est de l'anglicisme inconscient. Ca relève du syndrome de Stockholm: A force de se faire taper par son ravisseur, on finit par adopter son point de vue.
> Ca relève du syndrome de Stockholm: A force de se faire taper par son ravisseur, on finit par adopter son point de vue.
Vous n'arretez pas de me faire rire... ;-)
Tu peux me tutoyer FeuFRenais.
Mais ça n'est pas qu'une boutade: Ce syndrome de Stockholm se produit tout le temps en matière de langue. Les locuteurs d'une langue minoritaire finissent par intégrer l'impérialisme d'une autre et le défendre comme le leur propre. Ainsi, des tas de mots anglais pénètrent chaque jour davantage le français, le néerlandais, le danois, le suédois, ...et les jeunes de ces pays sont la plupart les complices de cette invasion, en étant très souvent inconscient que les mots qu'ils emploient sont en fait ni plus ni moins que des mots étrangers.
Comme le bourgeois gentillhomme de Molière, ils font de la prose sans le savoir. Mais c'est la prose de l'envahisseur.
Beaucoup de français aussi ne savaient pas cette règle.
Et c'est pas très joli de faire une affaire d'état pour tout, ce sujet a déjà été abordé plein de fois et c'est pas si si si si important.
Un script réglera tout sans beaucoup de mots autour.
Je ne fais pas une affaire d'état, mais Adjusting a l'air de dire qu'il y aurait des règles spécifiquement Canadiennes de la ponctuation française, et que les français seraient donc "impérialistes" sur Tatoeba. J'affirme qu'il se trompe et qu'il se bat inutilement contre des moulins à vent.
Adjusting n'a rien dit de pareil...
ben si, relit: "Est ce les phrases francaises sur Tatoeba devraient toujours suivre le style préféré de la France?"
Je ne voulais pas commencer un bagarre, je voulais seulement m'informer. Je m'excuse de t'avoir dérangé. Je ne demandrai plus de questions.
et puis en français, on ne "demande" jamais de questions, on les "pose". C'est une erreur que seuls les non francophones peuvent commettre...
Quand les non-francophones le disent, c'est une erreur. Quand moi je le dis, c'est un dialect. ;)
Parle ton français, et je parlerai le mien. Ailleurs.
et "dialect" c'est aussi de l'anglais. En frnaçais, c'est "dialectE"
Sacredceltic, je crois que tu devrais être plus respectueux des autres contributeurs. Si tu veux faire un commentaire sur ce que tu perçois comme une faute de français, tu devrais le faire sur un ton neutre et poli. Tu peux très bien donner ton opinion sur la validité de l'expression "demander une question" sans attaquer personnellement ton interlocuteur. Adjusting n'a jamais prétendu que sa langue maternelle était le français et d'ailleurs ça n'a strictement rien à voir avec la question qu'il a soulevé. Je crois que les discussions seraient plus productives si tu te contentais de discuter du point soulevé.
Je ne fais pas d'attaque "personnelle" autre que dénoncer un faux francophone qui fait croire à tout le monde qui l'est alors qu'il ne l'est pas. Savoir de quelles langues une personne est native sur Tatoeba est très important pour lui faire confiance quant à une langue donnée. Or je vois que de nombreuses personnes mentent sur leur langue natale afin de pouvoir "saccager" le corpus de ces langues àleur guise en prétendant avoir un "dialecte" particulier. Adjusting n'est pas francophone canadien. C'est un anglophone et ça se voit régulièrement à ses contributions qui sont plus que douteuses.
Le dialecte de français qui dit "demander une question" s'appelle l'anglais. Je ne crois pas une seconde que tu es un natif francophone en disant ça, comme tu veux le faire croire...
Aucun francophone ne dirait cela. Tu es un anglophone !
Mais tu ne posais pas une question, tu affirmais l'existence d'un diktat qui n'existe pas.
Une simple espace devrait suffire. L'ajout d'espaces fines (insécables) ne devrait, à mon avis, pas être le problème de l'utilisateur, mais concerner le logiciel qui affiche/gère les phrases.
En tout cas ça n'a rien d'un différent franco-canadien comme le sous-entend adjusting. La règle est lamême dans les deux pays.
Je viens de vérifier sur un bouquin Québequois que je possède par le célèbre écrivain Nelly Arcan: La ponctuation y est conforme à celle du français "de France". CQFD
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/503422
blay_paul please native check