Gögnin okkar eru gefin út undir ýmsum Creative Commons leyfum.Meiri upplýsingar
Ef þú elskar þetta efni geturðu hjálpað til.
Veggur (7.125 þræðir)
Ábendingar
Áður en þú spyrð spurningu skaltu lesa lista algengra spurninga.
Við stefnum að því að viðhalda heilbrigðum staði fyrir siðmenntaðar umræður. Vinsamlegast lestu reglur gegn slæmum hegðum okkar.
sharptoothed
4 klukkustundum síðan
sharptoothed
12 dögum síðan
sharptoothed
12 dögum síðan
TATAR1
12 dögum síðan
AlanF_US
13 dögum síðan
sharptoothed
14 dögum síðan
Shanaz
17 dögum síðan
Qaztat
17 dögum síðan
TATAR1
17 dögum síðan
Tartar
17 dögum síðan
http://tatoeba.org/spa/user/profile/misstushar
Zara like be my friend.
Welcome Zara if you aren't a ¿troll, spammer?
Niestety nie mogę odsłuchać mp3 na przykład w zdaniu 887207 i w wielu innych; dlaczego?
Nie wiem, dlaczego... U mnie (w Firefoksie 12) pracuje, mogę odsłuchać mp3 w tym zdaniu.
Nigdy nie mogłem odsłuchać zdań na tej witrynie internetowej. Ja też używam Firefox, i dla mnie mówi, że "The QuickTime plugin has crashed."
Mnie tez zawsze mowi "Wtyczka QuickTime ulegla awarii". To musi byc cos zwionzane z QuickTime a nie z Tatoeba...
Nie mówię po polski, ale będę używać Google Translate:
Możesz spróbować użyć innej przeglądarki.
ON THE LICENSE
I believe the discussion on the license we are having can RUIN the maid idea of Tatoeba, or at least harm it.
WHAT IS DISCUSSED
Some people say that "Taken from Tatoeba, copyright Tatoeba contributors" is not enough as a contribution, and you should say "Taken from Tatoeba sentences 222, 3333, 44444, 555555" or "Taken from Tatoeba, copyright muiriel, sacredceltic, FeuDRenais".
WHAT IT IMPLIES
It will make re-using Tatoeba data much harder. People can't just add one line to their "About" dialog, they will be FORCED TO CHANGE THEIR PROGRAMS if they want to use Tatoeba data.
Often changing program is not an option. E.g. proram may be written by someone else, and you just import data into it.
This will effectively REDUCE THE USEFULLNESS OF TATOEBA for other sites. Many sites, who can't or don't want to change their programs, will HAVE TO AVOID TATOEBA DATA.
WHY IT IS IMPORTANT
From the very beginning, Tatoeba project was intended only as ONE of the projects to break linguistic barriers. Remember Trang's video:
http://www.universalsubtitles.o...-of-sentences/ (start from 2:50):
"But you know, it would be sad to collect all these sentences and keep them for ourselves. Because there's so much you can do with them. Which is why Tatoeba is "open"... This means you ca re-use them freely for a textbook, for an application, for a research project, for anything! <...> So, ultimately with Tatoeba we're only building the foundations to make the Web a better place for language leraning."
The idea is that Tatoeba database can be re-used: it makes them much more useful.
This change WILL UNLTIMATELY MAKE TATOEBA MUCH LESS OPEN.
LEGAL POINT OF VIEW
"Copyright Tatoeba contributors" already includes "muiriel, sacredceltic and FeuDRenais" (anyone can visit http://tatoeba.org/rus/users/all and see the full list), there is no REAL need to ask to mention them separately.
BUT CC-BY gives you RIGHT to specify contribution format. So it is not a legal requirement to specify long attribution phrases, but it's possible.
I must stress: it's not a legal requirement, it's a requirement WE, THE CONTRIBUTORS, CAN FORCE ON OTHERS.
A PLEA
I personally HOPE this new attribution format is not adopted. Because it would efficiently make Tatoeba licensing terms as cumbersome as the licensing terms of traditional corpuses.
Please... please don't ruin what I liked in Tatoeba most. That sense of making something useful. The sense that it's not just site as it is, but a foundation for something much bigger.
I fully disagree and this is not how Tatoeba licence is. The sentences authors should be respected under CC-BY. They must be cited. There is no "Tatoeba author" as a whole. Tatoeba is every single of its authors.
"Paternité [BY] (Attribution) : l'œuvre peut être librement utilisée, à la condition de l'attribuer à l'auteur en citant son nom."
Tatoeba is not the author. Citing Tatoeba's name doesn't conform to CC-BY.
If you misinterpreted CC-BY, you should blame yourself, but not complain...
I, for one, read it carefully when I started this project.
Again : Glosbe should name the authors or at least provide links to each and every sentence they imported or forget it...
I won't let anyone make money out of my work without paying tribute !
I don't understand what are your aspirations there,
I don't see what's there for you to win or lose,
I only see what there to lose for the project.
But I'm only giving my best to try to understand these business I don't know much about.
I have no aspirations at all. I want our work to be respected.
Rule should not change during a game.
From the start, Tatoeba is CC-BY and that includes "BY". Point. So whoever wants to reuse Tatoeba must abide by the terms of CC-BY, especially when it is for a commercial purpose.
Do you have shares in Glosbe ? Are you afraid for your investment ?
"Do you have shares in Glosbe ? Are you afraid for your investment ?"
No, as I said, it's something I don't know much about, and I totally agree that other projects should be impelled to grant links to each sentence they post,
but I really never had your conception of the individual contributor in front of the corpus. Even though "the rules" say that, I don't understand what there's to win or lose to you, and also, no one forces you to contribute with a gun on your chest.
>no one forces you to contribute with a gun on your chest.
No. But apart from the feeling of helping the community, users also create sentences because they have a sense of authorship. If that appeal was absent, I bet Tatoeba would have at least 10 times less sentences nowadays, including yours, for all you say...and that the remaining sentences would be of much lower quality, because people wouldn't take so much pain.
Doing away with the sense of authorship would actually have been fatal to Tatoeba !
I, for one, have made around 235 000 contributions to Tatoeba (see my profile), whether creating, translating, correcting or commenting sentences. If you account an average of just 1 minute per contribution, it is 489 workdays, 8 hours a day. It is a huge time investment which tells how much I value this.
Some days, I worked from 7am to 12pm non stop for Tatoeba...
Translating and coining phrases might be a minor form of art, but it is no less valuable than recording house music. I can't see why authors of sentences would be deprived of their creations more than musicians are.
People must take pride in whatever it is that they do. I'm not asking for anything but deserved credit.
I'm not particularly interested in having my pseudo associated with any content (this is a pseudo, not my name, so I remain anonymous anyway...) and, what with the many corrections and informational comments, each sentence is actually a collective piece of work, but I want a URL to point at that collective work, to show to people that it is HERE, in Tatoeba, that a formidable team of good-willing and dedicated people have created this huge amount of work.
I want people to see how it was made, collectively, and I also want them to be drawn to our service to enrich it, rather than to blindly consume it without any chance to get any payback, or rather feed financial payback to others.
I see absolutely no point in having our work imprisoned in commercial services who do not communicate back to us and in which our quality work is drowned in the middle of tons of poor robotic translations !
What's the point of helping them make money out of our work ? I don't even understand your qualms...These guys must have so much fun thinking how idiotic people can be to make them make money for free...
Then what about contributing link-makers? If moderator linked two sentences, according to your logics, he also should be contributed.
Indeed. In theory, all participants to comments and corrections and links should be cited.
That is why the solution I propose is the minimum ;: provide a direct link to every sentence into Tatoeba. It's easy, simple, cheap...
If you can't do that simple thing for us and want to make money from our work anyway, just forget it !
The problem is, people will just forget. :(
I wonder how many projects we will not see because of this.
>people will just forget.
Forget what ? To insert a simple url ? I'll explain them how to do that myself...
When you can't do such simple things, you shouldn't publish a service on the web using other people's creations.
"Since 2004, all current licenses require attribution of the original author.[4] The attribution must be given to "the best of [one's] ability using the information available".[7] Generally this implies the following:
Include any copyright notices (if applicable). If the work itself contains any copyright notices placed there by the copyright holder, those notices must be left intact, or reproduced in a way that is reasonable to the medium in which the work is being re-published.
Cite the author's name, screen name, or user ID, etc. If the work is being published on the Internet, it is nice to link that name to the person's profile page, if such a page exists.
Cite the work's title or name (if applicable), if such a thing exists. If the work is being published on the Internet, it is nice to link the name or title directly to the original work.
Cite the specific CC license the work is under. If the work is being published on the Internet, it is nice if the license citation links to the license on the CC website.
Mention if the work is a derivative work or adaptation, in addition to the above, one needs to identify that their work is a derivative work i.e., “This is a Finnish translation of [original work] by [author].” or “Screenplay based on [original work] by [author].”
"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cr...ommons_license
=> Cite the work's title or name (if applicable), if such a thing exists. If the work is being published on the Internet, it is nice to link the name or title directly to the original work.
el estado ideal para la comunicación verdaderamente global
Concerning the licence:
A user reported me that he's not able to incorpate the Tatoeba database into a package aimed to be included into the debian project http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian because of some incompatibilty with the version of the CC-BY licence we use (the 2.0), which is solved with the version 3.0 of it.
The problem is that I highly supposed to make that change I will need the explicit authorization of all the contributors, which may be a quite long process as I will need to email a lot of people.
In the same time I've also been wondering about changing the licence to CC-by-SA, which would make our project compatible in both way with some big projects (wikipedia/wiktionnary, wikia, a lot of 'open' words dictionnaries are also under cc-by-sa)
I know that's a very vast subject so I would like to know the opinion of people on it, as it may influence greatly the future of the projet, especially it's "incorporation" into the "open culture" ecosystem.
[EN] I personally don't like the idea of CC-BY-SA switch _at all_.
It would greatly limit the usefullness of Tatoeba data for non-open-source developers.
Tatoeba is already _open_. What CC-BY-SA effectively does is making it less "open", i.e. people who are not working of "open" projects won't be able to use it.
[UK] Мені особисто _дуже_ не подобається ідея переходу на CC-BY-SA.
Це значно зменшить корисність даних Татоеби для разробщиків ПО з закритим кодом.
Татоеба вже _вільна_. CC-BY-SA тільки зробить її менш вільною, тобто люди, які не працють над _вільними_ проектами, не зможуть її використовувати.
Note: I actually don't have any opinion myself about cc-y/cc-y-sa as nowadays my contribution to the content is very limited (and even my overall content contribution is now only a very little part of the total content), as soon as it suit the "community" opinion
The licence of the data itself is not really important in a developer point of view, as I can create my "close" code dictionnary feeded by "open" dictionnaries, (search on the android/iphone market how many chinese-english dictionnary software, free or not, do reuse for the data the cc-cedict project which is actually cc-by-sa) and as long as they attribute it, it's perfectly legal, the only things the "share-alike" add is that if they mix for example cc-cedict and handedict (also under cc-by-sa), they need to release somewhere they're resulting dictionnary under cc-by-sa.
in theory what Demetrius said is absolutly right http://wiki.creativecommons.org...ulting_work.3F
but the actual situtation make that most of the current "open" culture ecosystem has chosen cc-by-sa, which make tatoeba a "provider" but that can't be feeded by these projects , so in way it "closes" us from the content of these projects
as said, personnaly I'm both fine with cc-by and cc-by-sa, as anyway I don't consider the content of tatoeba as "mine" (though i will not say the same about the code :P) , this post is mainly to provide more information for those of the community who have never really been interested by these "copyright/copyleft" issues
Note 2 : at first my original post was mainly to also talk about a more important need to swtich licence from cc-by 2.0 to cc-by 3.0
Would there be a way to have a "or higher versions" option like the GPL sometimes uses?
If we were to "vote" on the license, this would mean a lot of work to implement such a system where the user decides on the adoption of a new license. If we really do so I would suggest to implement a multi-license system where a user can tick the respective licenses (and include eg CC-0, PD) which results in different versions that can be downloaded seperately (although this is not a desirable state as these versions would be smaller of course it would provide a way to progress to a new license).
+1
CC-BY should indeed be compatible with CC-BY-SA!
I do however favor additional licences that are similar to CC-BY. Im not an expert but what about the GPL?
As for compatibility, it is one-way: CC-BY thing can be included in CC-BY-SA things, but not vice versa.
That's what I meant, but your statement is more exact. ;)
GPL has the same copyleft features/shortcomings as CC-BY-SA, and in addition it is not really suited for non-code.
Right, GPL is also "share-alike", but it would be easier for somewone to use the data if we grant as many licences to choose from as possible (as fit to our ideas).
Comme je l'ai signalé, Glosbe, qui est un projet commercial, utilise nos données (pour faire du fric, donc) sans citer les auteurs. C'est contraire aux principes de la licence. Ça doit être très clair.
Actually the seemed to not be that "non-willing" to respect the "attribution" part of the licence as there's an obvious tatoeba icon near the sentence, I will contact them if you want in order to put in addition to this the name of the author of the sentence.
Are you sure this is absolutely required to attribute the username? I think tatoeba link may be allright: the user can go to tatoeba and find out who the contributor was.
I think forcing people to mention the contributor exactly makes re-using data much harder! You can't just add one line in your credits, you have to put lots of names.
I think CC-BY licenses mean you can specify what kind of attribution is required. I just hope that Tatoeba link is enough attribution.
>the user can go to tatoeba and find out who the contributor was.
Glosbe doesn't provide a direct link to the sentence within Tatoeba.
I agree that would be enough, but they must provide it, at the very least...
I personally think a link to Tatoeba is enough. One can use search to find who exactly was the contributor.
Requiring someone to attribute each member is too cumbersome, and, in the end, makes re-using data much harder. It means one should not add a small link on the credits page, but a link each time sentence is used! I think it's too much: hardly anyone will use Tatoeba sentences under such terms.
I think we should be happy that someone re-uses our data.
to import the sentence url along with the sentence itself costs nothing at all...
It means alterning the database schema and program in most cases.
If so, you should consider switching to a more modern web framework...
Web frameworks don't eliminate the need to change the program.
And in some cases this is even less possible, e.g. in mobile appilcations with memory constrains.
memory costs nothing nowadays...even on smartphones...My current one has 32G !
Don't you know the Moore's law ? By the time we discuss this matter, the price has already dwindled...
Above all this direct link will make it easier to comment errors in the sentence.
It should be technically very easy to provide the username of the sentence, if not even the direct link to the sentence. In my opinion they should mention it, but we should be clearer about whether one needs to mention just Tatoeba or each name.
http://glosbe.com/en/de/Muiriel
this site is france based.
glosbe is poland based.
When I search for "Muiriel" in Glosbe, I see example sentences we translated! This is a crime, we should contact Glosbe to remove our sentences in this site (tatoeba), from their sites.
"Muiriel is very good at telling invented stories."
>This is a crime, we should contact Glosbe to remove our sentences<
No, the crime is that Glosbe hasn't yet sent us the money needed to by a new server and to improve the software of tatoeba.
+10
With Schengen, now, there's no way to stop MUIRIEL from moving freely around...
Good evening,
I would like to ask the team in charge with this wonderful website to add Amazigh (Berber) to the website. I'm a translator and this language is my mother tongue. It's mainly spoken in Algeria, Morocco, Libya (Northern Berbers), Niger and Mali (Tuareg Berbers).
Thanks a lot for taking my request into consideration ^v^
Which Berber language do you speak? There are multiple, no?
cntrational
Thank you for asking this question :-)
Some linguists consider Amazigh (or Berber) as ONE language which has various dialects. Others (especially Anglosaxon linguists) consider it as a "group of different languages". We, as the speakers of the language consider that OUR LANGUAGE IS ONE AND HAS ONE NAME, TAMAZIGHT.
The unity of our language DOES EXIST. Since the birth of our cultural and identity revival in the early 20th century, we have been talking about Amazigh culture and language, and all efforts meant for the standardization of our language refer to the Amazigh language as ONE.
In the recent years, Moroccan and Algerian governments granted official status for the language and they always refer to it as the Amazigh language (and not "languages" :-)
Intercomprehension between the speakers of the different dialects varies from area to area, but we can say without risk that ALL the dialects of the Northern part of North Africa (Nefoussa [western Libya], Shawi [Northeast Algeria], Kabyle [Northeast Algeria], Chenoui [West Algeria], Mozabite [Central Algeria] and all of the Moroccan dialects) are intercomprehensible.
There are only three dialects that are very different from the mainstream Amazigh, and these are the Tuareg (Sahara), Ghadames dialect (Northwest Libya) and the Zenaga dialect (southwest Mauritania).
In television shows of Amazigh-speaking channels, you can see a host speaking a dialect and a group of hosts, each speaking a different dialect, and yet, they make a superb program in which they communicate without any problem. Communication between the speakers of the various Amazigh dialects is similar to that between UK and US English-speakers. The only missing thing is the standardization (or what we commonly refer to as "unification") of our language.
Tanemmirt s tussda (= Thank you very much)
:-)
>The only missing thing is the standardization
do you mean, by "standardization", the transcription itself ?
Sacredceltic:
Not the transcription (spelling) but the standardization of modern vocabulary. For the transcription, many grammars have been alread published. There are three Academic institutions that work (sometimes together) in order to carry out the standardization of the spelling, and they are the IRCAM (Royal Institute of Amazigh Culture in Morocco), the Amazigh Department in the University of Bejaia (Algeria) and the Berber Research Center (which is part of French INALCO - National Institute of Eastern Languages and Civilizations). They regularly issue recommendations for spelling. IRCAM also issued some glossaries.
Hello, I've seen your email and the fact that you've added the 10 sentences, I try to add it before tomorrow.
Sysko:
Oh !!! Thank you very much Sysko :-D
Thanks a million !!!
There are Berber populations in southern Tunisia as well, correct? I once visited that part of the desert and I enjoyed their way of living and their food a lot!
Shame on me, I have forgotten my brothers in the southern Tunisia :-) That's right ... There are others in the oasis of Siwa, in Northwest Egypt and another group in Southwest Mauritania (the Zenaga Berbers) ^v^ Let me teach you the two mostly used words in our language: "Azul" (hello) and "Tanemmirt" (thank you)
^v^
Omar
Interesting. So, berber language is shared among all those tribes, and doesn't have much in common with arabic, right?
Shadd:
It's classified in the same language group as Arabic, the Afroasiatic languages group, together with Ancient Egyptian, Chadic languages (Hausa language), Semitic languages (Arabic, Hebrew, Phoenician, etc.) and Cushitic languages (like Somali).
However, Berber (Amazigh) doesn't resemble much Arabic. It has a remote kinship with Semitic languages. The degree of resemblance between Amazigh and Arabic isn't as clear as it is between Arabic and Hebrew and Aramaic for example, and this is due to the fact that the Amazigh language branch split from the main Afroasiatic branch much long ago (5000-6000 BC).
Resemblance between these languages are mainly structural and not lexical ^v^
tu es le premier contributeur à préciser dans son profil qu'il est de l'Algérie, ce qui fait donc de l'Algérie le 69e pays contributeur de Tatoeba
https://docs.google.com/spreads...Nl92Wnc#gid=15
Hehehe ... Thank you for the information ^v^ I'm proud to represent my country on this wonderful website :-D
Très joli avatar, Amastan ! Signifie-t-il quelque chose ?
Hi Sacredceltic,
Thank you :-) The avatar represents letter "Z" (the double trident) in our traditional alphabet called "tifinagh". This is the symbol of all Amazigh groups of North Africa. The symbol can be also seen in traditional Amazigh decoration on carpets and pottery.
In 2011, Morocco recognized the Amazigh language as the second official language of the country, alongside Arabic. The Moroccan government officially adopted the traditional alphabet as the official script for the language. In Algeria, there are still problems between the supporters of three different alphabets: some want the language to be written in the traditional alphabet, others want it to be written in Arabic script, and others want it in Latin or Roman script. In my contributions to Tatoeba, I used the Roman script, because this is the main alphabet used to teach the language at Algerian schools and Universities. Moreover, almost all spelling and grammar standardization works were based on the Roman alphabet. The supporters of the other two alphabets, in Algeria, produce almost nothing.
However, we all want to keep our traditional alphabet (the Tifinagh) as our common heritage and a source of pride ^v^ After all, Amazigh is one of the few indigenous African languages that has its own script !!!
Welcome to Tatoeba! May I reffer you to the [Frequently asked questions](http://tatoeba.org/eng/faq#new-language)? In essence you have to contribute at least 10 sentences and add them to a public list. Then tell Trang the iso code and propose an image for the flag.
There is no use in adding lots of languages with just a few sentences and no speakers(too much effort with no result), but every new contributer and his or her languages are welcome and indeed the idea of the project!
Thank you very very much Jakov !!!
I'm a native speaker of Amazigh (Berber) and I can contribute with tens of thousands of sentences translated from 5 different languages (English, French, Spanish, Arabic and Italian).
I'll follow your instructions,
Thank you
Omar
Bienvenue au Berbère !
Thank you very much Sacredceltic !!!
Celts and Berbers have something in common ^v^ Both peoples trace back their origins to protohistoric times and they are very rebellious ... And their languages are very rich and exotic :-)
Omar
and music as well. Berber music groups are present at the inter-celtic festival of music of Lorient, in Brittany, each summer.
I just listened to recent Berber music and could definitely find close similarities. Amazing !
You can start creating sentences in Amazigh/Berber right away. Just choose any language name, then after having inserted the sentences, click on their flag and change it to "other language" and add a comment to indicate what it is, and create a list and add all the sentences you create to that list.
Adding new languages might take time but it's worth the waiting...
Bon travail !
That's it, Sacreceltic, there was a blending or a marriage between North African Amazigh music and sweet Celtic music !!! I have always loved this mixture and, nowadays, we often hear this kind of music on Amazigh-speaking television programs in Algeria !!! There's something in common between our two populations ... we have a lot of coincidences both in Ancient times and nowadays ... We were among the earliest peoples to enter North Africa and you were among the earliest Indo-Europeans who arrived to Europe :-) The Belgae was one of the last surviving Celtic tribes in continental Europe ^v^
I'll follow your instructions right now !!!
Tanemmirt (Thank you !!!)
"You can start creating sentences in Amazigh/Berber right away. Just choose any language name, then after having inserted the sentences, click on their flag and change it to "other language" and add a comment to indicate what it is, and create a list and add all the sentences you create to that list."
I will try that.
HOla soy Marta, e intentare traducir las frases españolas. Un saludo
Bienvenue Marta !
Estu kore bonvena! Ne hezitu demandi nin pri io ajn!
Hallo, Leute!
Mir ist aufgefallen, daß Sätze, die ich schon vor verhältnismäßig langer Zeit hinzugefügt habe, noch immer nicht gefunden werden, wenn ich danach suche.
Woran mag das liegen?
Wird die Satzsammlung nicht, wie irgendwo geschrieben steht, einmal wöchentlich um alle neuen Sätze ergänzt?
Müssen die Sätze erst von irgend jemandem kontrolliert werden, ehe sie auch auffindbar sind?
Grüße vom
Pfirsichbäumchen
Kannst übrigens auch mal hier suchen: http://glosbe.com/
Dort werden die Tatoeba-Sätze regelmäßig übernommen und die Suche und Darstellung, finde ich dort etwas angenehmer.
Et Glosbe ne respecte pas les termes de la licence CC_BY qui oblige à citer l'auteur...
Bonsoir Pfirsichbäumchen !
Il faut attendre que les phrases soient indexées. Elle ne le sont que périodiquement, mais pas en temps réel.
C'est un peu irritant bien sûr, mais tout est question de patience...
Boa noite, cavalheiros!
Estou retornando aos estudos da língua inglesa.
O que eu devo fazer agora?
Hey, I don't want to see hypertrophated sacredceltic's ego.
Please remove this pic.
Эта картинка мозолит мне глаза.
Установить дополнение для Вашего браузера (например, AdBlock для Firefox) и отключите её.
Ну, или попросите Sacredceltic'а по-хорошему... Хотя он вряд ли согласится. :)
Причём тут адблок, они сделали тут эту картинку.
Каждый может выбрать себе такую картинку, какую хочет (в пределах разумного, конечно).
Can you please avoid non-constructive discussions?
>Hey, I don't want to see hypertrophated sacredceltic's ego.
"hypertrophied", dear child.