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TRANG TRANG 2010 M04 3 2010 M04 3 17:55:52 UTC flag Report link Permalink

* To those who can link/unlink.

You have to be careful when unlinking. In order not to get it wrong, always link everything you can before you unlink.

The thing is, if you have the chain A-B-C, and you cut A-B, you won't be able to link A-C because C will not appear anymore.

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blay_paul blay_paul 2010 M04 3 2010 M04 3 18:11:09 UTC flag Report link Permalink

So, any chance of 'trusted user' status? There's a sentence here
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/21085
that needs unlinking from one of the others.

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TRANG TRANG 2010 M04 3 2010 M04 3 18:17:39 UTC flag Report link Permalink

Ah, I forgot to say, even if you have the right to (un)link, you cannot (un)link everything.

If you want to unlink A-B, you have to be the owner of either A or B.

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MUIRIEL MUIRIEL 2010 M04 3 2010 M04 3 18:54:21 UTC flag Report link Permalink

is the owner of the other sentence informed if you unlink your sentence and his sentence?
If not, I suggest to implement this... even "trusted users" shouldn't be trusted too much ;).

great update, btw =)))!

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TRANG TRANG 2010 M04 3 2010 M04 3 18:57:28 UTC flag Report link Permalink

I trust people a lot :P

But yes, your suggestion will be implemented. It's just a matter of time (as always).

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MUIRIEL MUIRIEL 2010 M04 3 2010 M04 3 19:17:16 UTC flag Report link Permalink

I know, you even trust me :P...

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sysko sysko 2010 M04 3 2010 M04 3 20:38:56 UTC flag Report link Permalink

why ? we shouldn't trust you ? :p

blay_paul blay_paul 2010 M04 3 2010 M04 3 18:52:39 UTC flag Report link Permalink

Got it. I think that one is sorted out now.

Note that you need to refresh the page after 'owning' a sentence to see the link / unlink icons.

blay_paul blay_paul 2010 M04 3 2010 M04 3 12:48:26 UTC flag Report link Permalink

クレジット or 謝辞 ?

Anyone have an opinion on whether クレジット, 謝辞 (or, indeed, something else entirely) should be used with the following interface elements?

https://translations.launchpad....AC%9D%E8%BE%9E

Pharamp Pharamp 2010 M03 31 2010 M03 31 12:41:22 UTC flag Report link Permalink

Hellu!
How can I help to translate the Tatoeba interface into Italian?
There are a few errors and not everything is translated.

thanks!

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sysko sysko 2010 M03 31 2010 M03 31 12:56:15 UTC flag Report link Permalink

You need to register here, as this is the service we use to manage the translation of tatoeba
https://translations.launchpad..../+translations
and then from there you can translate the interface/ correct mistakes

feel free to ask if you have questions :)

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Pharamp Pharamp 2010 M03 31 2010 M03 31 21:29:59 UTC flag Report link Permalink

Very goood, I've started with the translation!
When will be everything updated?

Anyway it's a working in progress project (but I'm really interested to complete it) because I can't find some of the sentences inside the site >.<

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sysko sysko 2010 M03 31 2010 M03 31 22:25:35 UTC flag Report link Permalink

cool
it will be updatet soon :p
http://tatoeba.org/fre/wall/show_message/360 when you don't find some sentences, and if you still don't find ask us ;-) you can send to me or Trang a pm

Pharamp Pharamp 2010 M03 31 2010 M03 31 18:20:15 UTC flag Report link Permalink

(just trying a thing)

Swift Swift 2010 M03 28 2010 M03 28 12:04:43 UTC flag Report link Permalink

Regarding translations, I noticed that the German ones all seem to du-ts, rather than Sie-ts. Is that just the way the cards fell and best left alone?

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TRANG TRANG 2010 M03 28 2010 M03 28 14:17:17 UTC flag Report link Permalink

Yes in general it's better to leave alone a sentence if by itself it doesn't have any spelling or grammatical mistake. Never mind if it's a correct translation or not.

=> http://blog.tatoeba.org/2010/02...eba.html#rule5

We will soon introduce a way to "unlink" sentences for problems related to incorrect translations.

Anyway, if you would like to see more "Sie", you have the right to another translation. It's not forbidden to have two German translations for one same English sentence :)

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Swift Swift 2010 M03 28 2010 M03 28 14:38:31 UTC flag Report link Permalink

Sorry, that may have been a bit too unclear. I'm referring to the Tatoeba interface translation, not the sentences in the database.

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TRANG TRANG 2010 M03 28 2010 M03 28 14:49:55 UTC flag Report link Permalink

Oooh, okay. Haha.

Well my friend Muiriel told me that it is more likely to see the use of "du" on German Web pages. She was the one who translated most of it. And as far as I'm concerned I can't really have an opinion on the matter, I'm nowhere near fluent in German.

But if you (or other German speakers have) an opinion on this (du vs. Sie), feel free to express it. We're not reluctant to change if there's a good reason for it.

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Swift Swift 2010 M03 28 2010 M03 28 15:40:54 UTC flag Report link Permalink

Fair enough; I don't read enough German websites to contradict your friend. Of course commercial sites would refer to their customers with Sie, but Wikipedia seems to mainly use du in help and project namespaces (with occasional Sie's). The semi-commerical dict.leo.org, however, also uses Sie but there may well be plenty of other examples of similar sites that use the informal. I'll ask around as well.

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Liface Liface 2010 M03 30 2010 M03 30 18:10:27 UTC flag Report link Permalink

I think it's best to use the informal. The formal in German is dying out, especially among the young generation. I'd say it's mostly young people who are using this site, anyway.

Maybe it could be decided on by sentence. Like "Hey, let's go to the movies" would be informal because you're rarely going to say that to someone you don't know, and "I'd like to have a talk with you about my salary" would be formal, because it's in a business situation.

JimBreen JimBreen 2010 M04 6 2010 M04 6 07:24:29 UTC flag Report link Permalink

Re Trang's: "Yes in general it's better to leave alone a sentence if by itself it doesn't have any spelling or grammatical mistake. Never mind if it's a correct translation or not."

I think an exception to this is when there is a Japanese-English pair which have different meanings. Although Paul and I have removed or corrected hundreds of these over recent years, there are still quite a lot there. Our approach has been to amend one or both so that they agree in meaning. I think this needs to continue. When there is a 3rd or 4th language sentence linked, and that sentence has been translated from the English, it is more complicated. Then I think it is better to add an extra English sentence which matches the Japanese, then delink the non-matching pair.

I regularly encounter Japanese sentences with spelling mistakes, e.g. 性交 [8-}] when it should have been 性行 (they are pronounced the same). Then there is no alternative to correcting the Japanese.

MUIRIEL MUIRIEL 2010 M03 31 2010 M03 31 12:31:59 UTC flag Report link Permalink

Oh, I saw the discussion just now^^:
As Swift mentions, Wikipedia uses "du" when appealing to its contributors. Facebook also uses du. I juste decided to follow their example as it seems the most common solution to me and as I also prefer "du". But if anyone doesn't like it, let's discuss it :)!

Trang, did you synchronize my latest launchpad translations? The status is "Translation unchanged since last synchronized", however I see many English sentences in the German version that I think having translated?

Es wäre toll, wenn mir andere Muttersprachler helfen könnten, Tatoeba vollständig und besser zu übersetzen :)!
https://translations.launchpad.net/tatoeba
Das, was ich schon übersetzt habe, könnte sicher in vielen Fällen besser gemacht werden. Und einiges habe ich auch gar nicht übersetzt, da mir bisher keine gute Lösung eingefallen ist.

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lilygilder lilygilder 2010 M04 1 2010 M04 1 07:23:02 UTC flag Report link Permalink

I think "Sie" sounds much too reserved, communitywise "du" would be the better choice. But I don't visit many German websites either.

@Muiriel: Ich werd mal reinschaun, vielleicht übersetze ich heute noch ein paar Sätze. Ist schließlich noch ein langer Vormittag. ;)

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Swift Swift 2010 M04 5 2010 M04 5 20:45:14 UTC flag Report link Permalink

Good, it seems there's a fair consensus on this, then. Thanks for the input.

TRANG TRANG 2010 M03 31 2010 M03 31 23:50:27 UTC flag Report link Permalink

I didn't update the translations yet. It will be done this Saturday, some time in the afternoon. If you can translate more in the meantime, go ahead :P

Liface Liface 2010 M03 30 2010 M03 30 18:27:24 UTC flag Report link Permalink

I can't edit translation? I make myself owner of a sentence, edit the false English translation to make it better, but it reverts to the previous translation. Am I missing a step here?

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TRANG TRANG 2010 M03 30 2010 M03 30 22:06:19 UTC flag Report link Permalink

No it's actually a bug. We're aware of this and it will be fixed this weekend (or perhaps sooner). We'll let you know. Sorry for the inconvenience =/

In the meantime, the best way to proceed is, first to click on the sentence in order to view it in the "Browse" page (the page where there are also the comments and the logs displayed). Then adopt the sentence. Then refresh the page. Then edit the sentence.
I know it's quite annoying, but it's the only (temporary) solution.

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Liface Liface 2010 M03 30 2010 M03 30 22:31:34 UTC flag Report link Permalink

Merci TRANG, for all your hard work on the site.

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TRANG TRANG 2010 M03 31 2010 M03 31 23:45:19 UTC flag Report link Permalink

The bug is corrected :)

And you can also thank sysko, he did a lot of work as well.

blay_paul blay_paul 2010 M03 28 2010 M03 28 16:54:24 UTC flag Report link Permalink

Confirmations in LaunchPad?

OK, quick question here. I've made a lot of 'awaiting confirmation' translation suggestions in LaunchPad but it doesn't seem like they will be confirmed (or corrected) any time soon. I guess there aren't many native Japanese speakers with a lot of free time hanging around here. Do you think it would be best to 'confirm' them, even though I can't guarantee good Japanese, in order to get the interface translation finished quicker?

It would, of course, still be possible to correct translations later anyway.

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sysko sysko 2010 M03 28 2010 M03 28 18:49:48 UTC flag Report link Permalink

I think as you've said, we haven't so much Japanase native, in a first time "confirm" them is the best solution, with an interface even in "not perfect" Japanese, we're more likely to attract more Japanese, and I think they will report us if they see any mistakes

TRANG TRANG 2010 M03 28 2010 M03 28 21:14:42 UTC flag Report link Permalink

Thanks for taking on the task of translating into Japanese by the way ^^

And yes, I agree that it's better to "confirm". We're not going to be very perfectionist on the interface translations, even if it may not look very "serious" from a language website NOT to have correct translations...
But well, for the reason sysko mentioned, it's better than nothing.

contour contour 2010 M03 23 2010 M03 23 03:00:21 UTC flag Report link Permalink

A proposal for the Japanese romanisation:
I think both romaji and kana readings should be shown on the site. While there's some agreement that serious students of the language should be reading kana, having the romaji makes the site more accessible for silly things like learning to say "I love you" in twenty languages.

As for how to generate it, I'd suggest using the B lines where possible. If there's no B line, or if the B line does not match the text (for instance because of names in the sentence), generate the reading with MeCab, which looks pretty solid.
This may require names and other unindexed items to be added to a B line if the romanisation needs to be corrected. Just the reading will do.

Does this sound reasonable?

I'm motivated to work on this if necessary, but it will probably be a little while before I have the time. First up would be to create the B line to reading converter, and then use it to test MeCab's accuracy on our data.

There are entries like '|1' in front of most parentheses that aren't described at http://www.edrdg.org/wiki/index.php/Tanaka_Corpus. I'm guessing they're indices for the reading?

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JimBreen JimBreen 2010 M03 23 2010 M03 23 06:37:19 UTC flag Report link Permalink

Much as I love those indices in the B-lines (I invented them years ago), I think it might be better to go straight to MeCab. There are some tricks you would need to apply, e.g. where MeCab says a particle is "助詞,格助詞" you would leave it with spaces around it, and where it is "助詞,接続助詞" you would attach it to the preceding word.

Those "|1" are an artifact of the days when Paul Blay was maintaining the indices in MSAccess and needed a way of disambiguating some words. They are not carried through to the B lines in WWWJDIC (I didn't know what they were until Trang expained them to me.)

If you are using MeCab, use the IPADIC version.

The B-lines would be necessary if you you were to create links to WWWJDIC, as MeCab breaks up expressions/compound nouns/etc.

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sysko sysko 2010 M03 23 2010 M03 23 08:52:19 UTC flag Report link Permalink

one of us has beginning to look into changing kakasi, but we have never used MeCab and so, so maybe if you want, I can give you his mail in order to see how to use/configure mecab ?

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JimBreen JimBreen 2010 M03 23 2010 M03 23 12:01:01 UTC flag Report link Permalink

Sure. I have only used it on as a command-line too (and in shell scripts), but I see it has bindings for python, perl, ruby and java. I just installed it with apt-get (Debian). I use the ipadic (mecab-ipadic) ratjer than the default juman dictionary.

You need to make sure you get the utf-8 configuration. Mine is euc-jp.

It's simple to use: "echo 日本語の分節 | mecab".

Feel free to ask.

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sysko sysko 2010 M03 27 2010 M03 27 16:59:56 UTC flag Report link Permalink

the output seems to contain only katakana, is there a way to have hirigana ?

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JimBreen JimBreen 2010 M03 27 2010 M03 27 23:26:13 UTC flag Report link Permalink

Only by doing your own conversion - those morphological analysis systems don't really care whether it's one or the other.

In EUC-JP and in raw Unicode the conversion is simple, e.g. あ is 3041 and ア is 30A1 and so on. It's a little more messy in UTF8 but quite doable with a simple algorithm. Of course where it is katakana in the original text, you would leave it that way.

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sysko sysko 2010 M03 27 2010 M03 27 23:36:07 UTC flag Report link Permalink

ok that's what we've done waiting your answer, so we will keep it :)
so it's highly probable that it will be included in next release

JimBreen JimBreen 2010 M03 21 2010 M03 21 06:11:23 UTC flag Report link Permalink

Traditional and Simplified Chinese

I saw the comment about converting hanzi on-the-fly. Be very cautious about that, as there are many cases where it simply doesn't work. Proper Traditional<->Simplified conversion needs to work at the lexeme level and in some cases needs some context for disambiguation.

Jack Halpern wrote a very good paper about this about 10 years ago:
http://www.cjk.org/cjk/c2c/c2cbasis.htm

PS: how do I make a comment on another posting?

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JimBreen JimBreen 2010 M03 21 2010 M03 21 06:40:28 UTC flag Report link Permalink

OK, I worked out how to do a follow-on. I'd clicked "reply" but it hadn't worked. Now it does.

sysko sysko 2010 M03 21 2010 M03 21 11:10:11 UTC flag Report link Permalink

the traditional to simplified chinese is not made at "character by character" level, but try to decompose the sentence (you can see how the sentence has been segmented by looking to pinyin)
As I've said I'm in conctact with the guy who develop it, so don't hesitate to report any bad segmentations, I will report to him

blay_paul blay_paul 2010 M03 2 2010 M03 2 11:46:10 UTC flag Report link Permalink

WWWJDIC index line.

I suggest adding links from words in the Japanese sentence to WWWJDIC entries using the information in the index line. That would be a useful 'first step' towards adding furigana to the sentence.

The basic set-up is relatively straight forward, but there is one complication - namely 'deliberately non-indexed text'. Punctuation, English words, place names and other proper nouns are not generally included in EDICT and so do not have entries in the Index line. Jim Breen should have a 'no index' field that includes all non-indexed text (although it may not be up to date). In order to parse a sentence properly you need both the index line and the non-indexed text.

Adding furigana to place names etc. should probably be left for later.

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JimBreen JimBreen 2010 M03 21 2010 M03 21 06:39:18 UTC flag Report link Permalink

Word-by-word links based on the Japanese index words would be good, and not too hard to implement, I think.

At present I am pulling the sentences and indices into WWWJDIC once a week, and I put them through a utility which matches the text and the index contents, and reports if there is a mismatch (which usually means that someone has changed a sentence.) To get around the problem of "deliberately non-indexed text" I have a file of
words which I ignore if they are not in the index. You can see this list of words at http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~...amplestopwords (in EUC-JP). Most are names. Some look a bit odd as they are two or more names which had been separated by punctuation (which I ignore.)

blay_paul blay_paul 2010 M03 20 2010 M03 20 19:20:37 UTC flag Report link Permalink

Translation suggestions

There are now 100 translation suggestions waiting to be checked at
https://translations.launchpad..../ja/+translate

I would urge people who understand Japanese to check them and either confirm or correct them.