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sysko sysko 19 januari 2012 19 januari 2012 23:52:14 UTC flag Report link Permalänk

[eng]Hello, from now I'm going to ask other contributors before giving to someone the status "corpus maintener" status.

So let's start now.

I plan to give it to Alexmarcelo, as he's contributing for now more than 8 months, he has also contributed in audio, seems to have never been involved in "violent" discussion, nor to have purposely violate rules

So if anyone is against this, I let you it there, and in 5 days if I get no major reason to not grant him this status I will do it.Feel free to tell if you support him too.

[fra]
À partir de maintenant je compte demander l'avis des contributeurs avant d'octroyer à un utilisateur le statut de "mainteneur du corpus".

Commençons donc cela avec Alexmarcelo, il est avec nous depuis plus de 8 mois, et à toujours eu à ma connaissance une attitude irréprochable, n'a jamais délibérément enfreint les règles, ni été impliqués dans des discussions houleuses.

Si quelqu'un cependant veut s'y opposer, il peut le faire ici, et si dans 5 jours je n'ai reçu aucune raison valable de ne pas le faire, alors je changerai son statut. Évidemment si vous soutenez le fait qu'il devienne mainteneur du corpus, vous pouvez aussi le dire.

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al_ex_an_der al_ex_an_der 19 januari 2012 19 januari 2012 23:56:15 UTC flag Report link Permalänk

Alexmarcelo has my support.

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sacredceltic sacredceltic 20 januari 2012 20 januari 2012 08:01:10 UTC flag Report link Permalänk

>seems to have never been involved in "violent" discussion, nor to have purposely violate rules

Now if you ask me (I know you don't), then I have reservations on : Swift, Zifre, arcticmonkey, Vortarulo, JimBreen, CK and Demetrius, who have shown agressivity towards every challenge to their apartheid conception of English supremacy.
They are not worthy of the role.

I wish there were more Alexmarcelos, who is talented, dedicated, helpful and humble.

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Demetrius Demetrius 20 januari 2012 20 januari 2012 09:17:45 UTC flag Report link Permalänk

I don't mind my status being taken away. I don't have much time to dedicate to Tatoeba anyway. :)

sacredceltic sacredceltic 20 januari 2012 20 januari 2012 10:53:31 UTC flag Report link Permalänk

And I fortgot Scott, who not only is also an English supremacist, but also a saboteur and, along with CK, wants not only to impose their linguistic views, but also their ridiculous local (and loose) moral standards to the universe, such as their "not for safe search" and "XXX" tags.

Here is an anthology:
http://tatoeba.org/epo/sentences/show/1183763
http://tatoeba.org/epo/sentences/show/1336936
http://tatoeba.org/epo/sentences/show/328035
http://tatoeba.org/epo/sentences/show/402576
http://tatoeba.org/epo/sentences/show/1871

I think that people who don't understand the relativity of social standards should in no way interfere in, let alone administer, international communities, that are, by definition, diverse.

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Scott Scott 21 januari 2012 21 januari 2012 17:50:16 UTC flag Report link Permalänk

Reading this wall comment reminded me of why I decided to stop contributing to Tatoeba.

I can't understand that comments like this are tolerated and allowed to remain on the wall. According to sacredceltic, half of Tatoeba's Corpus Maintainers are involved in some kind of English supremacist conspiracy.

The term "English supremacist" is highly insulting. It implies membership in a racist movement (look up supremacism). There should be a clear policy to prohibit this kind of comment.

Now, to explain my departure.

I was finding it increasingly difficult to keep on contributing to a project where a single lunatic is allowed to have such influence. Sacredceltic has again and again insulted other users, implied that they were part of conspiracies, that they had agendas, that they weren't native speakers of their own language, added tags that were clearly inappropriate etc. He also treats his own way of speaking the French language as the one and only correct way of speaking, not understanding that there are other regionalisms, dialects, and that sometimes it's possible that sentences that he would find unnatural still be correct French in other parts of the world or even for other users from different social classes, backgrounds, etc. This kind of behavior should have gotten him banned or at least severely warned.

There's yet again another discussion right now (http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/1238047) where sacredceltic is accusing rene1596 and U2FS of not being real natives, but rather saboteurs, etc. and all sorts of other mad ramblings.

While this doesn't really affect most languages on Tatoeba, it makes it difficult to keep on contributing to the English and especially French languages for any length of time. It's impossible to avoid at some point getting into an argument with sacredceltic. These arguments are always the same and end up becoming very bitter with sacredceltic escalating quickly to personal insults. Even native speakers of English are not immune. (take this sentence as an example http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentence...1978#comments)

One other thing that I must mention is that sacredceltic's behavior is intimidating. Few users are willing to argue with him, probably because they know that he will argue forever, never answer the voice of reason and that the discussion will become extremely bitter. I have tried to argue with sacredceltic and I have only succeeded in wasting my time.

This means that few users are willing to publicly call out sacredceltic when he says unreasonable things or proposes erroneous corrections. Quite simply, even if they know that what sacredceltic said is wrong or unacceptable, few users are willing to comment or point it out because they know that this would lead them to become embroiled in a long and acrimonious discussion. This stifles the quality of discussion and disrupts the normal functioning of Tatoeba.

It also means that sacredceltic's comments often remain there, unanswered, leading new users or visitors to believe that he may be right. It also leads users to believe that personal insults, etc. are accepted behavior on this website and that's possibly scaring away many potential contributors. I also suspect that at this point the admins themselves are scared of directly confronting sacredceltic, and they rarely do so (or at least they're scared of wasting their time!).

I know that right now, Tatoeba is run by only one person, twenty year old Sysko, who is working hard in China and still manages to do a lot to keep Tatoeba up and running. I commend him for his courage and dedication to the project. I don't think that it would be reasonable to ask sysko to do more than he already does or to micromanage user behavior. That's a task that should probably be delegated to other moderators or corpus maintainers, helped by a policy on user behavior. But whoever does it, I think that something should be done to curb disruptive behavior.

Sorry for the long comment, but I decided to write this because I think that someone needs to point out publicly how disruptive sacredceltic is to this community.

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sacredceltic sacredceltic 21 januari 2012 21 januari 2012 19:07:15 UTC flag Report link Permalänk

The actual reason for your stopping your contribution is your bitterness at having stood corrected by 2 native french speakers and it is here http://tatoeba.org/fre/sentence...comment-138461 for everyone to see.

Bitterness at being wrong is bad counsel...I don't know who is more lunatic of he who wants to write a proper sentence in his native language or the one who stubbornly insists that natives are wrong although he is inept at the language...

As for being aware of and acknowledging dialects and various variants of language, I am on the front, since I live in a country that has several different dialects of French, several of Dutch and even of German. I actually often create dialectal sentences on Tatoeba myself ( see "Belgian French" tag).
Your own dialect has nothing to do with Canadian French, which I also know very well. Yours is just a veil that you use to mask your ignorance.
You are a native English speaker who is posing as a native bilingual, but we know it's wrong and that any Canadian french native speaker would not write "il est un étudiant"...It's basic French that children learn very early...

As for corpus maintainers, it is a fact that a number of them, anglophiles, and for some of them openly esperantophobes, have openly expressed themselves on this very wall in the past against the use of other languages than English on the wall. I call it supremacism because that is what it is.
Funnily enough, there are also other silent corpus maintainers who I never had a problem with.
Of course, you would love to rule French alone on Tatoeba, because that would be such a thrill for a Canadian English, often so bitter of not having been able to deport and wipe out all Acadians.
I won't let this happen in silence.

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Scott Scott 21 januari 2012 21 januari 2012 19:56:25 UTC flag Report link Permalänk

>>Funnily enough, there are also other silent corpus maintainers who I never had a problem with.

It's not too hard to get along with someone who is silent...

>>As for corpus maintainers, it is a fact that a number of them, anglophiles, and for some of them openly esperantophobes, have openly expressed themselves on this very wall in the past against the use of other languages than English on the wall.

If that ever was the case I doubt that anybody opposes the fact that "All languages are equal on Tatoeba" anymore.

>>often so bitter of not having been able to deport and wipe out all Acadians.

That's an example of something that's not acceptable to say.

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sacredceltic sacredceltic 21 januari 2012 21 januari 2012 20:26:50 UTC flag Report link Permalänk

>It's not too hard to get along with someone who is silent...

Silent in this debate. But we exchange a lot, have no problems with each other and respect each other and each other's work very much.

Yes! Nobody opposes the use of other languages on the wall anymore and no corpus maintainers dares to insult Esperanto anymore...thanks in part to me!

...

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Demetrius Demetrius 22 januari 2012 22 januari 2012 04:04:30 UTC flag Report link Permalänk

facepalm.jpg

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sacredceltic sacredceltic 22 januari 2012 22 januari 2012 09:04:41 UTC flag Report link Permalänk

Yes Demetrius, you were among the first ones writing nasty comments and sentences to try to ridicule Esperanto with your friends. They're still there to see...before you delete them out of shame!

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Demetrius Demetrius 22 januari 2012 22 januari 2012 10:58:35 UTC flag Report link Permalänk

facepalm.jpg

sysko sysko 22 januari 2012 22 januari 2012 11:37:48 UTC flag Report link Permalänk

"often so bitter of not having been able to deport and wipe out all Acadians."

I agree with Scott on this, that sentences is totally unacceptable and you would have been the first to violently react if one was to say something like this. That's part of the message that I will delete from now. whatever it's one among a massive neutral text.

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sacredceltic sacredceltic 22 januari 2012 22 januari 2012 11:41:21 UTC flag Report link Permalänk

Then erase the "lunatic". That was an unprovoked ad hominem attack.

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sysko sysko 22 januari 2012 22 januari 2012 11:55:32 UTC flag Report link Permalänk

pas de problème, si Scott veut bien refaire comme tu as fait, le même message sans le lunatique, on va pouvoir avancer dans le débat.

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Scott Scott 22 januari 2012 22 januari 2012 14:58:41 UTC flag Report link Permalänk

Je veux bien, mais comment j'efface le message?

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sysko sysko 22 januari 2012 22 januari 2012 15:10:02 UTC flag Report link Permalänk

Ce n'est pas le plus pratique j'avoue, mais tu peux faire comme Sacredceltic, reposter ton message, et lui même remettra sa version edulcorée, et on pourra reprendre, et si vous deux me le permettez je supprimerai cette embranchement de la discussion.

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Scott Scott 22 januari 2012 22 januari 2012 15:24:27 UTC flag Report link Permalänk

Actually, you can delete it, here's the short version:

Something should be done to curb disruptive behavior. Disruptive users can degrade the quality of Tatoeba in subtle ways and aggressive or intimidating behavior should not be tolerated.

That's a task that should probably be delegated to designated corpus maintainers, helped by a policy on user behavior. This policy should be written and agreed upon by the majority of the community.

I should also add that I identified sacredceltic as a disruptive user in the original message and linked to the following sentences.

http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/1238047
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/881978

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al_ex_an_der al_ex_an_der 22 januari 2012 22 januari 2012 15:29:29 UTC flag Report link Permalänk

It should go without saying that all disputes can and should be settled in a spirit of cooperation, without special rools and regulations, but apparently that's not allways the case. Je regrette beaucoup.

sacredceltic sacredceltic 22 januari 2012 22 januari 2012 11:44:09 UTC flag Report link Permalänk

The actual reason for your stopping your contribution is your bitterness at having stood corrected by 2 native french speakers and it is here http://tatoeba.org/fre/sentence...comment-138461 for everyone to see.

Bitterness at being wrong is bad counsel...I don't know who is more lunatic of he who wants to write a proper sentence in his native language or the one who stubbornly insists that natives are wrong although he is inept at the language...

As for being aware of and acknowledging dialects and various variants of language, I am on the front, since I live in a country that has several different dialects of French, several of Dutch and even of German. I actually often create dialectal sentences on Tatoeba myself ( see "Belgian French" tag).
Your own dialect has nothing to do with Canadian French, which I also know very well. Yours is just a veil that you use to mask your ignorance.
You are a native English speaker who is posing as a native bilingual, but we know it's wrong and that any Canadian french native speaker would not write "il est un étudiant"...It's basic French that children learn very early...

As for corpus maintainers, it is a fact that a number of them, anglophiles, and for some of them openly esperantophobes, have openly expressed themselves on this very wall in the past against the use of other languages than English on the wall. I call it supremacism because that is what it is.
Funnily enough, there are also other silent corpus maintainers who I never had a problem with.
Of course, you would love to rule French alone on Tatoeba, because that would be such a thrill for a Canadian English.
I won't let this happen in silence.

JimBreen JimBreen 24 januari 2012 24 januari 2012 08:46:28 UTC flag Report link Permalänk

Great to have Alex as a maintainer.

I'm sorry you stopped contributing, Scott. I find it quite easy to ignore whatshisname's ranting, and even have a chuckle when he includes you, me, CK et al. among the elect "English supremacists".

I don't have a lot of time to spend on Tatoeba matters, and have to concentrate on the Japanese indices mostly. I think Sysko is doing a great job. がんばって.

al_ex_an_der al_ex_an_der 21 januari 2012 21 januari 2012 19:57:04 UTC flag Report link Permalänk

@sacredceltic
I guess you know how much I appreciate your work for tatoeba. But after your last statements I want to give you a small advice. Maybe it will be helpful, if you ask yourself one question concerning your above named colleagues: "Is it possible that they really all are ill-minded characters?”

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sacredceltic sacredceltic 21 januari 2012 21 januari 2012 20:36:34 UTC flag Report link Permalänk

I didn't say that they are "Ill minded". But some of them definitely are.
When I arrived in this community, it was dominated by what we call in French "La pensée unique" and whoever dared to challenge the English domination status quo was instantly pilloried.
You don't need to be I'll-minded to conform to the status quo. Many Chinese who want tibetan Buddhist monks to die are well-minded. They actually think that they are nasty retards...
The worst criminals are actually people with good intentions...

Shishir Shishir 19 januari 2012 19 januari 2012 23:57:03 UTC flag Report link Permalänk

Alex has my support too.

arcticmonkey arcticmonkey 20 januari 2012 20 januari 2012 00:00:37 UTC flag Report link Permalänk

Count me in!

marcelostockle marcelostockle 20 januari 2012 20 januari 2012 00:00:50 UTC flag Report link Permalänk

Alex would be a great corpus maintener!

Nero Nero 20 januari 2012 20 januari 2012 00:46:15 UTC flag Report link Permalänk

I've no reservations.

Vortarulo Vortarulo 20 januari 2012 20 januari 2012 01:01:10 UTC flag Report link Permalänk

That's a definite yes!

Demetrius Demetrius 20 januari 2012 20 januari 2012 09:18:19 UTC flag Report link Permalänk

I'm for Alexmarcelo.

Swift Swift 20 januari 2012 20 januari 2012 14:56:22 UTC flag Report link Permalänk

In my limited experience and from looking at his contributions, he seems to have a clear understanding of the structure of corpus and there is every reason to believe he will benefit the project.

alexmarcelo alexmarcelo 20 januari 2012 20 januari 2012 23:38:16 UTC flag Report link Permalänk

Obrigado a todos pela confiança!

Eldad Eldad 21 januari 2012 21 januari 2012 09:50:52 UTC flag Report link Permalänk

Alex has my full support. He will make an excellent corpus maintainer!

rene1596 rene1596 21 januari 2012 21 januari 2012 12:11:48 UTC flag Report link Permalänk

Alexmarcelo has my support.

brauliobezerra brauliobezerra 21 januari 2012 21 januari 2012 12:23:39 UTC flag Report link Permalänk

He has my support too.

Zifre Zifre 21 januari 2012 21 januari 2012 16:37:51 UTC flag Report link Permalänk

He has my support too, of course!

Scott Scott 21 januari 2012 21 januari 2012 17:44:11 UTC flag Report link Permalänk

I support Alex by the way!

enteka enteka 21 januari 2012 21 januari 2012 21:10:10 UTC flag Report link Permalänk

Perfect :)