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Veggur (7.124 þræðir)
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sharptoothed
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sharptoothed
9 dögum síðan
TATAR1
9 dögum síðan
AlanF_US
10 dögum síðan
sharptoothed
11 dögum síðan
Shanaz
14 dögum síðan
Qaztat
14 dögum síðan
TATAR1
14 dögum síðan
Tartar
14 dögum síðan
menaud
16 dögum síðan
el estado ideal para la comunicación verdaderamente global
Concerning the licence:
A user reported me that he's not able to incorpate the Tatoeba database into a package aimed to be included into the debian project http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian because of some incompatibilty with the version of the CC-BY licence we use (the 2.0), which is solved with the version 3.0 of it.
The problem is that I highly supposed to make that change I will need the explicit authorization of all the contributors, which may be a quite long process as I will need to email a lot of people.
In the same time I've also been wondering about changing the licence to CC-by-SA, which would make our project compatible in both way with some big projects (wikipedia/wiktionnary, wikia, a lot of 'open' words dictionnaries are also under cc-by-sa)
I know that's a very vast subject so I would like to know the opinion of people on it, as it may influence greatly the future of the projet, especially it's "incorporation" into the "open culture" ecosystem.
[EN] I personally don't like the idea of CC-BY-SA switch _at all_.
It would greatly limit the usefullness of Tatoeba data for non-open-source developers.
Tatoeba is already _open_. What CC-BY-SA effectively does is making it less "open", i.e. people who are not working of "open" projects won't be able to use it.
[UK] Мені особисто _дуже_ не подобається ідея переходу на CC-BY-SA.
Це значно зменшить корисність даних Татоеби для разробщиків ПО з закритим кодом.
Татоеба вже _вільна_. CC-BY-SA тільки зробить її менш вільною, тобто люди, які не працють над _вільними_ проектами, не зможуть її використовувати.
Note: I actually don't have any opinion myself about cc-y/cc-y-sa as nowadays my contribution to the content is very limited (and even my overall content contribution is now only a very little part of the total content), as soon as it suit the "community" opinion
The licence of the data itself is not really important in a developer point of view, as I can create my "close" code dictionnary feeded by "open" dictionnaries, (search on the android/iphone market how many chinese-english dictionnary software, free or not, do reuse for the data the cc-cedict project which is actually cc-by-sa) and as long as they attribute it, it's perfectly legal, the only things the "share-alike" add is that if they mix for example cc-cedict and handedict (also under cc-by-sa), they need to release somewhere they're resulting dictionnary under cc-by-sa.
in theory what Demetrius said is absolutly right http://wiki.creativecommons.org...ulting_work.3F
but the actual situtation make that most of the current "open" culture ecosystem has chosen cc-by-sa, which make tatoeba a "provider" but that can't be feeded by these projects , so in way it "closes" us from the content of these projects
as said, personnaly I'm both fine with cc-by and cc-by-sa, as anyway I don't consider the content of tatoeba as "mine" (though i will not say the same about the code :P) , this post is mainly to provide more information for those of the community who have never really been interested by these "copyright/copyleft" issues
Note 2 : at first my original post was mainly to also talk about a more important need to swtich licence from cc-by 2.0 to cc-by 3.0
Would there be a way to have a "or higher versions" option like the GPL sometimes uses?
If we were to "vote" on the license, this would mean a lot of work to implement such a system where the user decides on the adoption of a new license. If we really do so I would suggest to implement a multi-license system where a user can tick the respective licenses (and include eg CC-0, PD) which results in different versions that can be downloaded seperately (although this is not a desirable state as these versions would be smaller of course it would provide a way to progress to a new license).
+1
CC-BY should indeed be compatible with CC-BY-SA!
I do however favor additional licences that are similar to CC-BY. Im not an expert but what about the GPL?
As for compatibility, it is one-way: CC-BY thing can be included in CC-BY-SA things, but not vice versa.
That's what I meant, but your statement is more exact. ;)
GPL has the same copyleft features/shortcomings as CC-BY-SA, and in addition it is not really suited for non-code.
Right, GPL is also "share-alike", but it would be easier for somewone to use the data if we grant as many licences to choose from as possible (as fit to our ideas).
Comme je l'ai signalé, Glosbe, qui est un projet commercial, utilise nos données (pour faire du fric, donc) sans citer les auteurs. C'est contraire aux principes de la licence. Ça doit être très clair.
Actually the seemed to not be that "non-willing" to respect the "attribution" part of the licence as there's an obvious tatoeba icon near the sentence, I will contact them if you want in order to put in addition to this the name of the author of the sentence.
Are you sure this is absolutely required to attribute the username? I think tatoeba link may be allright: the user can go to tatoeba and find out who the contributor was.
I think forcing people to mention the contributor exactly makes re-using data much harder! You can't just add one line in your credits, you have to put lots of names.
I think CC-BY licenses mean you can specify what kind of attribution is required. I just hope that Tatoeba link is enough attribution.
>the user can go to tatoeba and find out who the contributor was.
Glosbe doesn't provide a direct link to the sentence within Tatoeba.
I agree that would be enough, but they must provide it, at the very least...
I personally think a link to Tatoeba is enough. One can use search to find who exactly was the contributor.
Requiring someone to attribute each member is too cumbersome, and, in the end, makes re-using data much harder. It means one should not add a small link on the credits page, but a link each time sentence is used! I think it's too much: hardly anyone will use Tatoeba sentences under such terms.
I think we should be happy that someone re-uses our data.
to import the sentence url along with the sentence itself costs nothing at all...
It means alterning the database schema and program in most cases.
If so, you should consider switching to a more modern web framework...
Web frameworks don't eliminate the need to change the program.
And in some cases this is even less possible, e.g. in mobile appilcations with memory constrains.
memory costs nothing nowadays...even on smartphones...My current one has 32G !
Don't you know the Moore's law ? By the time we discuss this matter, the price has already dwindled...
Above all this direct link will make it easier to comment errors in the sentence.
It should be technically very easy to provide the username of the sentence, if not even the direct link to the sentence. In my opinion they should mention it, but we should be clearer about whether one needs to mention just Tatoeba or each name.
http://glosbe.com/en/de/Muiriel
this site is france based.
glosbe is poland based.
When I search for "Muiriel" in Glosbe, I see example sentences we translated! This is a crime, we should contact Glosbe to remove our sentences in this site (tatoeba), from their sites.
"Muiriel is very good at telling invented stories."
>This is a crime, we should contact Glosbe to remove our sentences<
No, the crime is that Glosbe hasn't yet sent us the money needed to by a new server and to improve the software of tatoeba.
+10
With Schengen, now, there's no way to stop MUIRIEL from moving freely around...
Good evening,
I would like to ask the team in charge with this wonderful website to add Amazigh (Berber) to the website. I'm a translator and this language is my mother tongue. It's mainly spoken in Algeria, Morocco, Libya (Northern Berbers), Niger and Mali (Tuareg Berbers).
Thanks a lot for taking my request into consideration ^v^
Which Berber language do you speak? There are multiple, no?
cntrational
Thank you for asking this question :-)
Some linguists consider Amazigh (or Berber) as ONE language which has various dialects. Others (especially Anglosaxon linguists) consider it as a "group of different languages". We, as the speakers of the language consider that OUR LANGUAGE IS ONE AND HAS ONE NAME, TAMAZIGHT.
The unity of our language DOES EXIST. Since the birth of our cultural and identity revival in the early 20th century, we have been talking about Amazigh culture and language, and all efforts meant for the standardization of our language refer to the Amazigh language as ONE.
In the recent years, Moroccan and Algerian governments granted official status for the language and they always refer to it as the Amazigh language (and not "languages" :-)
Intercomprehension between the speakers of the different dialects varies from area to area, but we can say without risk that ALL the dialects of the Northern part of North Africa (Nefoussa [western Libya], Shawi [Northeast Algeria], Kabyle [Northeast Algeria], Chenoui [West Algeria], Mozabite [Central Algeria] and all of the Moroccan dialects) are intercomprehensible.
There are only three dialects that are very different from the mainstream Amazigh, and these are the Tuareg (Sahara), Ghadames dialect (Northwest Libya) and the Zenaga dialect (southwest Mauritania).
In television shows of Amazigh-speaking channels, you can see a host speaking a dialect and a group of hosts, each speaking a different dialect, and yet, they make a superb program in which they communicate without any problem. Communication between the speakers of the various Amazigh dialects is similar to that between UK and US English-speakers. The only missing thing is the standardization (or what we commonly refer to as "unification") of our language.
Tanemmirt s tussda (= Thank you very much)
:-)
>The only missing thing is the standardization
do you mean, by "standardization", the transcription itself ?
Sacredceltic:
Not the transcription (spelling) but the standardization of modern vocabulary. For the transcription, many grammars have been alread published. There are three Academic institutions that work (sometimes together) in order to carry out the standardization of the spelling, and they are the IRCAM (Royal Institute of Amazigh Culture in Morocco), the Amazigh Department in the University of Bejaia (Algeria) and the Berber Research Center (which is part of French INALCO - National Institute of Eastern Languages and Civilizations). They regularly issue recommendations for spelling. IRCAM also issued some glossaries.
Hello, I've seen your email and the fact that you've added the 10 sentences, I try to add it before tomorrow.
Sysko:
Oh !!! Thank you very much Sysko :-D
Thanks a million !!!
There are Berber populations in southern Tunisia as well, correct? I once visited that part of the desert and I enjoyed their way of living and their food a lot!
Shame on me, I have forgotten my brothers in the southern Tunisia :-) That's right ... There are others in the oasis of Siwa, in Northwest Egypt and another group in Southwest Mauritania (the Zenaga Berbers) ^v^ Let me teach you the two mostly used words in our language: "Azul" (hello) and "Tanemmirt" (thank you)
^v^
Omar
Interesting. So, berber language is shared among all those tribes, and doesn't have much in common with arabic, right?
Shadd:
It's classified in the same language group as Arabic, the Afroasiatic languages group, together with Ancient Egyptian, Chadic languages (Hausa language), Semitic languages (Arabic, Hebrew, Phoenician, etc.) and Cushitic languages (like Somali).
However, Berber (Amazigh) doesn't resemble much Arabic. It has a remote kinship with Semitic languages. The degree of resemblance between Amazigh and Arabic isn't as clear as it is between Arabic and Hebrew and Aramaic for example, and this is due to the fact that the Amazigh language branch split from the main Afroasiatic branch much long ago (5000-6000 BC).
Resemblance between these languages are mainly structural and not lexical ^v^
tu es le premier contributeur à préciser dans son profil qu'il est de l'Algérie, ce qui fait donc de l'Algérie le 69e pays contributeur de Tatoeba
https://docs.google.com/spreads...Nl92Wnc#gid=15
Hehehe ... Thank you for the information ^v^ I'm proud to represent my country on this wonderful website :-D
Très joli avatar, Amastan ! Signifie-t-il quelque chose ?
Hi Sacredceltic,
Thank you :-) The avatar represents letter "Z" (the double trident) in our traditional alphabet called "tifinagh". This is the symbol of all Amazigh groups of North Africa. The symbol can be also seen in traditional Amazigh decoration on carpets and pottery.
In 2011, Morocco recognized the Amazigh language as the second official language of the country, alongside Arabic. The Moroccan government officially adopted the traditional alphabet as the official script for the language. In Algeria, there are still problems between the supporters of three different alphabets: some want the language to be written in the traditional alphabet, others want it to be written in Arabic script, and others want it in Latin or Roman script. In my contributions to Tatoeba, I used the Roman script, because this is the main alphabet used to teach the language at Algerian schools and Universities. Moreover, almost all spelling and grammar standardization works were based on the Roman alphabet. The supporters of the other two alphabets, in Algeria, produce almost nothing.
However, we all want to keep our traditional alphabet (the Tifinagh) as our common heritage and a source of pride ^v^ After all, Amazigh is one of the few indigenous African languages that has its own script !!!
Welcome to Tatoeba! May I reffer you to the [Frequently asked questions](http://tatoeba.org/eng/faq#new-language)? In essence you have to contribute at least 10 sentences and add them to a public list. Then tell Trang the iso code and propose an image for the flag.
There is no use in adding lots of languages with just a few sentences and no speakers(too much effort with no result), but every new contributer and his or her languages are welcome and indeed the idea of the project!
Thank you very very much Jakov !!!
I'm a native speaker of Amazigh (Berber) and I can contribute with tens of thousands of sentences translated from 5 different languages (English, French, Spanish, Arabic and Italian).
I'll follow your instructions,
Thank you
Omar
Bienvenue au Berbère !
Thank you very much Sacredceltic !!!
Celts and Berbers have something in common ^v^ Both peoples trace back their origins to protohistoric times and they are very rebellious ... And their languages are very rich and exotic :-)
Omar
and music as well. Berber music groups are present at the inter-celtic festival of music of Lorient, in Brittany, each summer.
I just listened to recent Berber music and could definitely find close similarities. Amazing !
You can start creating sentences in Amazigh/Berber right away. Just choose any language name, then after having inserted the sentences, click on their flag and change it to "other language" and add a comment to indicate what it is, and create a list and add all the sentences you create to that list.
Adding new languages might take time but it's worth the waiting...
Bon travail !
That's it, Sacreceltic, there was a blending or a marriage between North African Amazigh music and sweet Celtic music !!! I have always loved this mixture and, nowadays, we often hear this kind of music on Amazigh-speaking television programs in Algeria !!! There's something in common between our two populations ... we have a lot of coincidences both in Ancient times and nowadays ... We were among the earliest peoples to enter North Africa and you were among the earliest Indo-Europeans who arrived to Europe :-) The Belgae was one of the last surviving Celtic tribes in continental Europe ^v^
I'll follow your instructions right now !!!
Tanemmirt (Thank you !!!)
"You can start creating sentences in Amazigh/Berber right away. Just choose any language name, then after having inserted the sentences, click on their flag and change it to "other language" and add a comment to indicate what it is, and create a list and add all the sentences you create to that list."
I will try that.
HOla soy Marta, e intentare traducir las frases españolas. Un saludo
Bienvenue Marta !
Estu kore bonvena! Ne hezitu demandi nin pri io ajn!
Hallo, Leute!
Mir ist aufgefallen, daß Sätze, die ich schon vor verhältnismäßig langer Zeit hinzugefügt habe, noch immer nicht gefunden werden, wenn ich danach suche.
Woran mag das liegen?
Wird die Satzsammlung nicht, wie irgendwo geschrieben steht, einmal wöchentlich um alle neuen Sätze ergänzt?
Müssen die Sätze erst von irgend jemandem kontrolliert werden, ehe sie auch auffindbar sind?
Grüße vom
Pfirsichbäumchen
Kannst übrigens auch mal hier suchen: http://glosbe.com/
Dort werden die Tatoeba-Sätze regelmäßig übernommen und die Suche und Darstellung, finde ich dort etwas angenehmer.
Et Glosbe ne respecte pas les termes de la licence CC_BY qui oblige à citer l'auteur...
Bonsoir Pfirsichbäumchen !
Il faut attendre que les phrases soient indexées. Elle ne le sont que périodiquement, mais pas en temps réel.
C'est un peu irritant bien sûr, mais tout est question de patience...
Boa noite, cavalheiros!
Estou retornando aos estudos da língua inglesa.
O que eu devo fazer agora?
Hey, I don't want to see hypertrophated sacredceltic's ego.
Please remove this pic.
Эта картинка мозолит мне глаза.
Установить дополнение для Вашего браузера (например, AdBlock для Firefox) и отключите её.
Ну, или попросите Sacredceltic'а по-хорошему... Хотя он вряд ли согласится. :)
Причём тут адблок, они сделали тут эту картинку.
Каждый может выбрать себе такую картинку, какую хочет (в пределах разумного, конечно).
Can you please avoid non-constructive discussions?
>Hey, I don't want to see hypertrophated sacredceltic's ego.
"hypertrophied", dear child.
Les requêtes par langue ne fonctionnent plus
http://tatoeba.org/fre/sentence...nd/indifferent
Pourquoi n'est-il plus possible de calculer combien de phrases russes n'ont aucune traduction ? http://tatoeba.org/fre/sentence...nd/indifferent
Il y a des problèmes pour voir les phrases espagnoles non traduites aussi, on peut voir la première page, mais pas les suivantes...
http://tatoeba.org/spa/sentence...fferent/page:2
ben moi je ne vois pas même la première...
Bogue ?
Il y a des déduplications qui ne sont pas effectuées :
http://tatoeba.org/fre/sentences/show/1158541
http://tatoeba.org/fre/sentences/show/450400
sans doute à voir avec les espaces fines / non fines...
Looking at the previous discussion, maybe there should be a mode allowing people to validate indirect translations, for example show me all the indirect translations between Japanese and French, and I'll validate and link them if they are correct.
If you ask sysko you may become an advanced contributor and do what you just have described.
Oh ok, I didn't know it was already implemented ! It would be cool if normal users could do it, I mean not all advanced contributors can check a Korea to polish translation, etc ...
you can always request a link in the comments. the idea of not letting beginner users link sentences is that changes in links are not easy to undo and that many new users need some time to understand the concept of the graph with its direct and indirect translations.
and everyone can pretty easily get advanced contributor ;)
*Korean to Polish