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Sentence #1748134

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Pfirsichbaeumchen Pfirsichbaeumchen August 4, 2012 August 4, 2012 at 5:38:05 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

Is there a polite form of address in Tamazight? Or do you address everyone the same as in English?

Amastan Amastan August 4, 2012 August 4, 2012 at 5:56:09 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

Are you referring to pronouns like "du" and "Sie" in German, "tu" and "vous" in French and "tu'" and "usted" in Spanish? No, such a difference doesn't exist in Tamazight. You address a stranger or a person you respect just as you address a friend/a relative.

On the other hand, we have 2nd person masculine and feminine pronouns: "kecc" (you, masculine). "kemm" (you, feminine) for singular, and "kenwi" (you, masculine) and "kennemti" (you, feminine) for plural.

Kecc d Almani (You [masculine] are German)
Kemm d Talmanit (You [feminine]are German)
Kenwi d Almaniyen (You [masculine plural] are Germans)
Kennemti d Talmaniyin (You [feminine plural] are Germans)

Generally, we don't use personal pronouns when we make sentences with verbs. In other words, I don't always need to use the pronoun "kecc/kemm" in order to conjugate a verb in a sentence. So I can say directly "Tecciḍ imensi" ([you] ate dinner), and there is not need for me to say "Kemm tecciḍ imensi" (You ate dinner). "Teffɣem zik" ([You, plural] left early) and it's not necessary to say "Kenwi teffɣem zik" (You left early).

With "kecc" (you, masculine singular) and "kemm" (you, feminine singular), the verb is conjugated exactly in the same way:

Kecc tessneḍ talmanit (You [masc.] know German)
Kemm tessneḍ talmanit (You [fem.] know German)

However, with "kenwi" (you, masculine plural) and "kennemti" (feminine plural), the verb changes:

Kenwi tessnem talmanit (You [masc. plural] know German)
Kennemti tessnemt talmanit (You [fem. plural] know German)

Note: As I said earlier, we can say all the above sentences without using the personal pronouns, so it goes like this:

Tessneḍ talmanit.
Tessneḍ talmanit.
Tessnem talmanit.
Tessnemt talmanit.

Pfirsichbaeumchen Pfirsichbaeumchen August 4, 2012 August 4, 2012 at 6:52:52 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

Yes, the pronouns were exactly what I was aiming at. Thanks for taking the time to write another very interesting explanation. As I was curious as to what the other pronouns would be, I just tried to find some material online, but the result was rather confusing. For example, I came across the variants cek, keyi, kečči for the 2nd person singular masculine pronoun, whereas you gave me kecc. Are all these from different dialects? Or are they different (possibly interchangeable) forms of each other?

Amastan Amastan August 4, 2012 August 4, 2012 at 7:56:56 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

It's my pleasure to answer your questions :-)

The second person masculin singular pronouns you found online are all dialectal variants of the same pronoun, "you [masculine singular]".

"Cekk" (or "cečč") is the variant found in most Zenata dialects (like Tashawit [in the Aures mountains - northeast Algeria or Mozabite [with variant "cečč").

"Keyy" and "keyyi" are variants found in Central and Southern Morocco, as well as in Tuareg.

"Kecc" is the form found in Kabyle (northeast Algeria, the most spoken dialect in Algeria).

"Kecci" [kečči] is the Kabyle variant known in Eastern Kabylie (area of Bejaia and east of that area). You can find variants even within the same dialect. Kabyle has "kecc, kecci, keccini".

You can find these pronouns in conjugations in my online dictionary (http://amawal.wikidot.com/bder).

This is their list as they are known in the Kabyle dialect:

Nekk (I, me)
Kecc (You, masculine singular)
Kemm (You, feminine singular)
Netta (He)
Nettat (She)
Nekkni (We, masculine)
Nekkenti (We, feminine)
Kenwi (You, masculine plural)
Kennemti (You, feminine plural)
Nitni (They, masculine plural)
Nitenti (They, feminine plural)

Most of the dialects have either the same pronouns as Kabyle or variants of the same pronouns. The variants are easily recognized in other dialects. Some dialects of Morocco don't have feminine "we" (nekkenti).

There are two main groups of the Amazigh dialects. The "Sanhadja" group (which includes Kabyle, Central Moroccan Tamazight, Southern Moroccan Tamazight and Tuareg) and the Zenata group which includes most of the dialects still spoken nowadays (but with smaller numbers of speakers in comparison to the "Sanhadja" dialects) such as Shawi (Tacawit), Mozabite, Rifian (spoken in northern Morocco), Tunisian dialects, Djebel Nefoussa dialect in Western Libya, etc. The main difference between these two groups is the following: "g" and "k" in the Sanhadja group are generally pronounced as "j" and "c" in the Zenata group. Hence "kecc/keyy" which is pronounced "cekk/cečč" in the Zenata group.

"Keyy" is certainly the oldest form of pronoun "you" (as a singular masculine). It exists in Central and Southern Morocco as well as in Tuareg (which is one of the most archaic Amazigh dialects still in use). The fact that "keyy" survives in these dialects (which separated from one another many many centuries ago) means that "keyy" is they most archaic form within the Sanhadja group. As for Kabyle "kecc", it has been, maybe, influenced by the Zenata dialects.

Now, let's see how these pronouns work with the predicative particle "d" which is translated as "to be" in some languages:

Nekk d anelmad (I am a student)
Nekk d tanelmadt (I am a student [feminine])

Kecc d anelmad (you are a student)
Kemm d tanelmadt (you are a student [feminine])

Netta d anelmad (he is a student)
Nettat d tanelmadt (she is a student)

Nekkni d inelmaden (we are students)
Nekkenti d tinelmadin (we are students [feminine])

Kenwi d inelmaden (You are students)
Kennemti d tinelmadin (You are students [feminine])

Nitni d inelmaden (They are students)
Nitenti d tinelmadin (They are students [feminine])

And now, let's see verb "sɛu" ("to have") - Note that this verb is mainly used in Kabyle, some Zenata dialects of Western Algeria and in Mozabite:

Nekk sɛiɣ (I have)

Kecc tesɛiḍ (You have)
Kemm tesɛiḍ (You [fem.] have)

Netta yesɛa (He has)
Nettat tesɛa (She has)

Nekkni nesɛa (We have)
Nekkenti nesɛa (We [fem.] have)

Kenwi tesɛam (You [masculine plural] have)
Kennemti tesɛamt (You [feminine plural] have)

Nitni sɛan (They [masculine plural] have)
Nitenti sɛant (They [feminine plural] have)

And now, as I told you earlier, you can use the verbs directly without the personal pronouns:

Sɛiɣ adlis (I have a book)

Tesɛiḍ adlis (You have a book)

Yesɛa adlis (He has a book)
Tesɛa adlis (She has a book)

Nesɛa adlis (We have a book)

Tesɛam adlis (You [masc. plur.] have a book)
Tesɛamt adlis (You [fem. plur.] have a book).


Pfirsichbaeumchen Pfirsichbaeumchen August 4, 2012 August 4, 2012 at 9:54:01 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

Thank you so much. That was really helpful this time. So we are talking about Taqbaylit, and that is also the dialect that you speak? At any rate, I think I am beginning to see a little clearer now. So, could I say:

ⵏⴻⴽⴽ ⴷ ⵜⴰⵍⵎⴰⵏⵉⵜ ⵎⴰⵞⴰ ⴽⴻⵞⵞ ⴷ ⴰⵎⴰⵣⵉⵖ (Nekk d talmanit maca kecc d amazigh)?

I probably got the glyphs all wrong, but it is fun to write them nonetheless. ☺

Amastan Amastan August 5, 2012 August 5, 2012 at 11:32:07 AM UTC flag Report link Permalink

Tanemmirt (Thank you)

You have written the Amazigh sentence with the right letters and it is 100% correct. Thank you very much for this sentence, and I am really happy to see that :-)

By the way, do the Amazigh letters appear on your screen (on this Tatoeba page)? Before, I couldn't see Tifinagh letters on any website. Then, last week, I installed a software I donwloaded from the net. Now, I can see them, however, the software brought some changes to my Windows and now, the horrible thing is that I can't see any Chinese or Japanese characters!!! Please, confirm.

Amastan Amastan August 5, 2012 August 5, 2012 at 12:31:55 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

Pfirsichbäumchen: Please, add your Amazigh sentence to Tatoeba and let's translate it into different languages. That will be your first sentence in Tamazight ^v^ Our friend Alexander has already posted a couple of Amazigh sentences and the were perfect!!! Go ahead!

Pfirsichbaeumchen Pfirsichbaeumchen August 5, 2012 August 5, 2012 at 3:29:37 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

I am surprised and needless to say also very happy that my first try was a success, no matter how simple it may have been. ⵜⴰⵏⴻⵎⵎⵉⵔⵜ. ☺

I can see the Tifinagh glyphs here on Tatoeba and elsewhere on the net. It seems that support for the script was already installed on my computer before I even knew it existed. The glyphs were also properly displayed when some days ago someone used them in his sentences, which I was very glad to see, by the way.

I am sorry to say that I am not sure how to install the script without it causing any conflicts, or how to fix the unacceptable problem with Chinese and Japanese. Maybe checking the language settings of your browser will help. If that does not work, then someone here on Tatoeba will surely be able to assist you. There are quite a few members who seem to be well versed in these technical matters. You could post a message on the wall.

Amastan Amastan August 5, 2012 August 5, 2012 at 3:56:00 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

Pfirsichbäumchen: If you can see the Tifinagh characters, then it's great!!! By the way, our linguistic battle has already started :-) A few days ago, a Moroccan Amazigh-speaker joined Tatoeba and he asked me to write only in Tifinagh script ^v^ He was the one who posted a few sentences in the Tifinagh script. I don't know whether Tatoeba would accept one language with two alphabets. As far as I am concerned, I don't care. I can write in both alphabets and I would be glad if the content of Tatoeba in Amazigh can be read by the supporters of both alphabets (Roman and Tifinagh). However, I don't know what's Tatoeba's team opinion about that. Anyway, I have already seen websites accepting two different scripts for the same language. I think that the Kurdish version of Wikipedia already does this (with Kurdish written in Arabic and in Roman scripts).

As for the conflict I have with Chinese and Japanese characters, I'll first try to fix it with a Windows CD. If it doesn't work, I'll seek help from others. I just hope that I'll understand their computing jargon :-) Because sometimes, even a translator needs a translator to help him understand a specialist ^^

Oh, by the way, if you add your Amazigh sentence in Roman alphabet, don't forget to replace the "gh" of "Amazigh" with a "ɣ", and I also prefer to capitalize ethnonyms like "Talmanit" and "Amaziɣ" ^^

sysko sysko August 5, 2012 August 5, 2012 at 4:05:37 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

For languages with two alphabets we already have several languages like this. For them I advice to write only one version and in the new version of Tatoeba it would be possible to add to a sentence several version if there's several alphabets, in order to not create "artificial" duplicate

For the current languages in that case thanks to the help of the contributors in these languages the solution i proposed is "if it's easily possible, i make a software that detect the alphabet in which you have written the sentence and generate the "other alphabet" version" , so this way you don't have to care about chosing one or the other.

marcelostockle marcelostockle August 5, 2012 August 5, 2012 at 4:45:09 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

@sysko: that will run for trad. and simplified Chinese too?
@anyone else: I only see squares, do I need to install something to make the characters appear correctly in my screen?

Amastan Amastan August 5, 2012 August 5, 2012 at 4:46:55 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

Sysko: thank you very much for your reply. I think that your suggestion of sentences being automatically converted in the language's second alphabet is great. Anyway, as far as Tamazight (Berber) is concerned, there is nothing to fear. All the letters in the Roman alphabet match with the letters in the Tifinagh alpbabet and there are no digraphs or similar things that might result in spelling mistakes. I think that you should write the program soon, as, among the Amazigh-speakers, there are millions of supporters of the Tifinagh (original Amazigh) alphabet ^^ Tanemmirt (Thanks)

Amastan Amastan August 5, 2012 August 5, 2012 at 4:50:55 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

Marcelstockle: I installed a software made by a Moroccan technician, however, it was very bad!!! It modified my Windows and now, I can't see Chinese and Japanese characters anymore (yet I still can see Malayalam and Hindi characters). I don't know why some people can see the Tifinagh characters and others can't, but since I had a bad experience with that software, I advise you to be cautious about the Amazigh software you would install on your computer (unless you're a specialist :-)

sysko sysko August 5, 2012 August 5, 2012 at 5:17:27 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

@marcelostockle : yep, this way that will ease finding duplicate

@Amastan, ok I will try, if you can provide me by email a converting table like

gh ɣ
x y
etc.

that would be even faster for me to do it.

sysko sysko August 5, 2012 August 5, 2012 at 5:19:20 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

@marcelostockle : most of the time when you see some characters as squarre instead of the actual characters it's because your system does not find something to "draw it", so the easiest solution is to install a font that contain these characters

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This sentence was initially added as a translation of sentence #1748133When was the last time you took the subway?.

Melmi ay d tikkelt taneggarut aydeg teḍḍfeḍ amiṭru?

added by Amastan, August 2, 2012