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Sentence #1843149

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Comments

halfb1t halfb1t December 12, 2012 December 12, 2012 at 2:30:33 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

The Muslims believe only in --> Muslims believe in

fekundulo fekundulo December 12, 2012 December 12, 2012 at 3:19:59 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

Only is essential for the semantic context.

halfb1t halfb1t December 12, 2012 December 12, 2012 at 3:40:45 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

The English is saying that Muslims don't believe in anything except "Allah is the only god and Mohammad is the last prophet." The essential semantic restrictions are already provided by "only God" and "last prophet," each of which indicates uniqueness.

fekundulo fekundulo December 12, 2012 December 12, 2012 at 4:04:34 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

Not necessarily. Provided god is unique and his prophet is last, they could still believe in aliens, zombies and the superiority of green cheese.

halfb1t halfb1t December 12, 2012 December 12, 2012 at 4:07:57 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

That's my point: your English says different.

sacredceltic sacredceltic December 12, 2012 December 12, 2012 at 4:50:05 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

+1

halfb1t halfb1t December 13, 2012 December 13, 2012 at 4:16:55 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

The essential contrast is given schematically by the contrasting sentences:

(1) They believe in that.

and

(2) They believe only in that.

These are semantically equivalent to:

(1) They believe in that, and they may or may not believe in anything else.

(2) They believe in that and nothing else.

The word "only" functions in exactly the same way in the pair

(3) I want fish.
(4) I want only fish.

It is a sad and confusing truth that careless American speakers may say, "I only want fish" when they mean (4). Do you have something like this in mind?

fekundulo fekundulo December 14, 2012 December 14, 2012 at 7:58:27 AM UTC flag Report link Permalink

I'm not American...
Thanks for the explanation.
My translation is based on two facts,
1. The original EO phrase
2. Knowledge and understanding of the context.
If you inspect the EO original, the word "only"="nur" occurs. It would have been careless of me to omit it.
If I had omitted the "only", I would have certainly changed the meaning of the original text, implying that Muslims may indeed believe in unicorns and dragons. However, according to Islam, they may not.

halfb1t halfb1t December 14, 2012 December 14, 2012 at 8:27:57 AM UTC flag Report link Permalink

Your explanation is clear and correct.

It is true that "only" here eliminates the possibility of belief in unicorns and dragons. It also eliminates the possibility of belief in anything else--except what can be deduced from the two beliefs named. This is throwing the baby out with the bath.

However, as your sentence is both structurally sound and natural, and as it seems to be an accurate translation, I must concede that you have done well, even as I condemn the Esperanto original. (For meaning. It too, as far as I can tell, is structurally sound.)

Thank you for responding to what has turned out to be an inappropriate complaint.

sacredceltic sacredceltic December 14, 2012 December 14, 2012 at 9:15:07 AM UTC flag Report link Permalink

This means Muslims don't believe the Earth is round...

halfb1t halfb1t December 14, 2012 December 14, 2012 at 9:43:07 AM UTC flag Report link Permalink

Or icosahedral.

fekundulo fekundulo December 14, 2012 December 14, 2012 at 11:15:18 AM UTC flag Report link Permalink

A belief is something for which there is no inherent proof. The fact that the earth is approximately round is thus not a suitable subject for this discussion. If, however, the proof of the existence of an additional god were to become scientifically viable, the theology of Islam (one of the five pillars of faith) would instantly collapse. A fine example is, if Christians could provide a proof for the deity of Jesus or for the trinity. Another example is, if anyone would demonstrate a verifiable and reproducible prophetic ability, thereby dethroning Mohammad as the last.

sacredceltic sacredceltic December 14, 2012 December 14, 2012 at 11:38:22 AM UTC flag Report link Permalink

This sentence states : Muslims believe only (proposition A), where proposition A = Allah as the unique God, and Mohammad is the last prophet

That means that Muslims don't believe anything but proposition A, so that means they don't believe in Unicorns.

What CK is proposing is different :
It states that Muslims believe in (proposition B) and (proposition C)
where proposition B = Allah is the only God
and proposition C = Mohammad was the last prophet.

In this case, Muslims may believe in Unicorns.

So the 2 sentences are not the same at all from a logical point of view.

halfb1t halfb1t December 14, 2012 December 14, 2012 at 11:41:21 AM UTC flag Report link Permalink

Quite right, but I should put it this way: It appears that CK has either not read or not understood the chain of comments preceding his.

halfb1t halfb1t December 14, 2012 December 14, 2012 at 12:16:29 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

Sorry, if what was?

fekundulo fekundulo December 14, 2012 December 14, 2012 at 1:05:19 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

There are 3 issues at hand.
1. The correct translation - since the English phrase is not the original text, the question remains whether the translation correctly conveys the meaning of the original.
2. The logical issue = the mathematical proof that
(A and B) != ((A and B) and !C)
3. The theological issue, whether or not Islam or Sharia allows a belief D, such that (D!=A) and (D!=B) and (D!=X where X is derived from either A or B).

Each of the issues merits a different discussion, but we in Tatoeba must adhere to issue 1.

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License: CC BY 2.0 FR

Logs

This sentence was initially added as a translation of sentence #1336273Os muçulmanos creem apenas em Alá como o único deus e em Maomé como último profeta..

The Muslims believe only in Allah as the only God, and in Mohammad as the last prophet.

added by fekundulo, September 15, 2012

Muslims believe only in Allah as the only God, and in Mohammad as the last prophet.

edited by fekundulo, December 12, 2012

Muslims believe only in Allah as the unique God, and in Mohammad as the last prophet.

edited by fekundulo, December 12, 2012