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Sentence #4469446

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Comments

sicerabibax sicerabibax August 24, 2015 August 24, 2015 at 10:03:46 AM UTC flag Report link Permalink

Al Marjo?

lipao lipao August 24, 2015 August 24, 2015 at 10:23:36 AM UTC flag Report link Permalink

"Manjo" is a diminutive form and it is often used here on Tatoeba for the English "Mary".

sicerabibax sicerabibax August 24, 2015 August 24, 2015 at 1:04:44 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

Dankon! :)

Ooneykcall Ooneykcall August 24, 2015 August 24, 2015 at 1:32:10 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

Конечно, сопоставлять уменьшительное Manjo и полную форму Mary выглядит не совсем логично. По-русски же Маша - более популярная уменьшительная форма, а Маня - с этаким народным оттенком.

al_ex_an_der al_ex_an_der August 24, 2015 August 24, 2015 at 3:06:34 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

Mi konsentas kun Ooneykcall.
Manjo estas karesa formo de Maria.
Kial uzi ĝin, kiam aliaj lingvoj ne uzas karesan formon?

al_ex_an_der al_ex_an_der August 24, 2015, edited August 24, 2015 August 24, 2015 at 3:07:58 PM UTC, edited August 24, 2015 at 3:08:47 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

@Ooneykcall
Saluton, Denis! Ĉu vi komprenas Esperanton? ;-)

lipao lipao August 24, 2015, edited August 24, 2015 August 24, 2015 at 3:21:12 PM UTC, edited August 24, 2015 at 3:24:03 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

I think it not so important whether the names are really exact translations of each other; they are, after all, the easiest part of the sentence to be changed if needed. More important is whether the names fit into the language, i. e. whether they can be declined properly. This is why I use "Marie" in Czech instead of the Anglicized "Mary", and this is why I use "Manjo" in Esperanto. Because it is a pure Esperanto word, meaning that it can get the proper endings easily.

PaulP PaulP August 24, 2015 August 24, 2015 at 4:21:02 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

I agree. For language learners it is very important to see the proper endings.

Ooneykcall Ooneykcall August 24, 2015 August 24, 2015 at 7:09:19 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

You could 'esperantify' the full form without making a diminutive though, couldn't you?

I use the habitual variation Мария (Maria) along with the English Мэри (Mary), although I stick to Mary when it's only in Nominative, since it doesn't make any difference then.

lipao lipao August 25, 2015, edited August 25, 2015 August 25, 2015 at 8:28:46 AM UTC, edited August 25, 2015 at 8:51:24 AM UTC flag Report link Permalink

OK, this will be a long response.

First, to finally kill the "Meri" thing: if you think about Tatoeba as "Here you have English sentences, translate them into your little languages," then yes, it would make sense to only transliterate the names according to pronunciation and let them stand out in the vernacular sentences as alien words. Although I don't see any reason to keep any traces of English in other languages' sentences.

Now if you want some Esperanto equivalent of this particular name, here are some possibilities:

"Maria" https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentenc...rom=epo&to=und
This is probably the first thing that comes to mind, as it is same as the original Graeco-Latin form and it is not so alien to Esperanto — no unfamiliar letters, clear pronunciation. And it is also the most used form here on Tatoeba.
It has, however, one major flaw: the declination. In Esperanto, the accusative ending is '-n' (with the class endings, it is '-on' for nouns in singular, and '-an' for adjectives in singular), so you may think of "Maria" as of a singular adjective and let it get the '-an' ending, which is actually what some people do: https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentenc...om=epo&to=und; but you may also not think so and just let the name retain the form "Maria" even if it is in the accusative (which I guess is the usual practice), as in this example: https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/1257894.
I think this is catastrophe; not only in most occasions the word "Maria" doesn't show the proper accusative ending where needed — hiding the information from the learner and confusing him — but you can't even say this is a rule, because some people do let it have the accusative '-n', so that creates even more confusion.

Then you can have the form "Mario": https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentenc...rom=epo&to=und
Which has the proper noun ending, so not declining it is much less excusable, and people really do decline this name: https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentenc...om=epo&to=und. The problem is that you can't say whether "Mario" stands for puristically Esperantized "Maria" or for the actual Italian/Latin "Mario/Marius". In the few occurrences of "Mario" we have here on Tatoeba, both variations are represented.

If you wanted to go to the roots and create a proper Esperanto form from the very original Hebrew name, you could say "Mirjam/o". Nice declinable word, but strange enough not to be used: https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentenc...om=epo&to=und, https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentenc...om=epo&to=und.

So this is why I use "Manjo". It is a diminutive, indeed. You can't (take it as a disadvantage or as an advantage) really tell what the original (non-diminutived, if this is a word) form is: for "Manjo" it could be "Maria", "Mario", "Magdalena/o"… whatever that starts with 'Ma-'.
You can, however, say that it is a feminine name, as it has the feminine diminutive suffix. (The masculine suffix is '-ĉjo'.)
But what is most important (as I've said in my previous comment): whatever the non-caressing form of "Manjo" is, you know that "Manjo" is a 100% Esperanto word and therefore if you see "Manjo", you can be always sure it is in the nominative (otherwise it is a mistake), because "Manjo" in the accusative is just not excusable — in contrast to "Maria", which doesn't have clear rules.

PaulP PaulP August 25, 2015 August 25, 2015 at 8:58:26 AM UTC flag Report link Permalink

Mi fakte kredis, ke la esperantlingvaj uzantoj de Tatoeba jam delonge interkonsentis pri la uzo de "Manjo". Ĉu do tiu (tre bona) pledo de Lipao necesis nur, ĉar iu tute komence pensis, ke "Manjo" estis tajperaro?

Cetere, "Manjo" laŭ mi ne estas diminutivo, sed karesformo. La diminutivo estus "Marieto" ;-)

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This sentence was initially added as a translation of sentence #4467574Mariae a Russis "Meri" vocari non placet..

Al Manjo ne plaĉas, ke rusoj ŝin nomas "Meri".

added by lipao, August 24, 2015