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Sentence #662560

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rpglover64 rpglover64 January 7, 2011 January 7, 2011 at 2:13:38 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

I would say this is a misuse of ra; the second ra is not necessarily the same as the first ra.

tijlan tijlan January 7, 2011 January 7, 2011 at 7:09:54 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

That's the point. The original French "il" (he) and "sa" (his/her) are ambiguous as to whether or not they refer to the same entity. They are best translated as {ra}, which is usefully vague.

rpglover64 rpglover64 January 7, 2011 January 7, 2011 at 9:44:35 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

Maybe, but I think that it's bad form in lojban to use ra like that. http://blog.tatoeba.org/2010/02...eba.html#rule4

As I interpret that, good lojban is more important than a perfectly accurate translation.

Zifre Zifre January 7, 2011 January 7, 2011 at 10:17:36 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

It's not bad Lojban. You are allowed to be as ambiguous as you want in Lojban. (In fact, Lojban has a number of features that allow you to be *more* ambiguous than in any natural language! For example, there is no way to make an English sentence that is anywhere near as ambiguous as "ra co'e".)

A translation is only "bad" if it is so literal that it is unnatural, or so loose that it has a dissimilar meaning. In the case of an ambiguous original sentence, I think it is perfectly fine to make a natural-sounding Lojban translation that is ambiguous in exactly the same way (and/or create multiple translations for each possible interpretation)

rpglover64 rpglover64 January 7, 2011 January 7, 2011 at 11:19:52 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

You certainly are *allowed* to be this ambiguous, but I don't think that you *would* be in this case, especially with the possibility of using {vo'a}. Additionally, I've been taught even in English to avoid statements like "He went to his house with him." because ambiguity of this sort is generally a bad thing.

I can't imagine a scenario where a lojban-speaker would want to introduce the ambiguity present in the French sentence.

Zifre Zifre January 8, 2011 January 8, 2011 at 12:14:14 AM UTC flag Report link Permalink

Yup, in this case, using "vo'a" seems like the best option. (Though I would add that as another translation and leave this the same.)

However, there certainly are cases where being exactly precise would be hard or would make extremely long sentences.

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License: CC BY 2.0 FR

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This sentence was initially added as a translation of sentence #661867Il restait à la maison de sa tante..

ra pu stali lo zdani be lo ra fetfamti

added by tijlan, December 12, 2010

linked by tijlan, December 12, 2010

linked by rpglover64, January 8, 2011

linked by Zifre, February 17, 2011

linked by Zifre, February 17, 2011