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Sentence #3700649

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Comments

freddy1 freddy1 December 19, 2014 December 19, 2014 at 6:51:09 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

Du, der nach der Weisheit strebst ---> Du, der nach der Weisheit strebt :)

Tamy Tamy December 19, 2014 December 19, 2014 at 7:25:44 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

Fürwahr ein närrischer Fehler!

Pfirsichbaeumchen Pfirsichbaeumchen December 19, 2014, edited December 19, 2014 December 19, 2014 at 7:39:50 PM UTC, edited December 19, 2014 at 7:40:26 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

Wie wäre „du, der du nach der Weisheit strebst“?

närrischte → närrischste

al_ex_an_der al_ex_an_der December 19, 2014 December 19, 2014 at 8:27:50 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

Ich will ein wenig klüger leben; so muss ich wohl nach Weisheit streben.
Sage nur heut', ich sei ein Narr; es kommt die Zeit, da ich der war.

Tamy Tamy December 19, 2014 December 19, 2014 at 8:37:26 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

Wow!

Während mich die Orthographie zum Narren hält,
ist’s um Alexanders Dichtkunst wohlbestellt!

al_ex_an_der al_ex_an_der December 19, 2014, edited December 19, 2014 December 19, 2014 at 8:40:45 PM UTC, edited December 19, 2014 at 8:44:10 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

Der närrischste (!) der Dichterzunft gibt dir noch diesen Ttipp: Zu viel Tee ist nicht okay.

Eldad Eldad December 19, 2014 December 19, 2014 at 8:43:14 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

ein überflüssiger du?

Tamy Tamy December 19, 2014 December 19, 2014 at 8:45:29 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

Diese Wiederholung ist eine stilistische Figur, die Pfirsichbaeumchen vorgeschlagen hat, und der ich gerne zustimme.

Eldad Eldad December 19, 2014, edited December 19, 2014 December 19, 2014 at 8:46:58 PM UTC, edited December 19, 2014 at 8:48:27 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

OK, in this case, excuse me for switching to English ;-)
Could you explain this extra "du" to a Nichtmuttersprachler?

Tamy Tamy December 19, 2014 December 19, 2014 at 9:10:04 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

It's something like an idiom, a rethorical figure.

Ich, der ich schon immer mal Marrakesch sehen wollte, habe eine Reise nach Marokko gewonnen.
Ausgerechnet du, die du immer so auf Ordnung achtest, wirfst deinen Müll in die Natur.
(alternativ: du, die immer so auf Ordnung achtet).

Eldad Eldad December 19, 2014 December 19, 2014 at 10:06:26 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

Thank you very much.

I'm trying to put some logic into the first three words, "Du, der du..." in a way that would make sense to me. It sounds like "You, who you strive for wisdom" (while I would expect: "You, who strive for wisdom"). Should I render it differently (just for the sake of a logical explanation), so that I may understand how this extra "you" can be incorporated there logically?

I understand that this has stylistic value, but I try to reconcile it with German grammar.
Hope I managed to make myself clear.
Thank you very much for your efforts to explain so far.

Tamy Tamy December 19, 2014 December 19, 2014 at 10:35:30 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

Hello Eldad,
I fear it's like so often - the native speakers don't know the logic that is underlying their talking! ☺
Sorry, but I have no further idea (beyond of "habit" or "rethorical figure").

Eldad Eldad December 19, 2014 December 19, 2014 at 10:37:46 PM UTC flag Report link Permalink

Thanks ☺
I'll try to roll it in my head until I connect to it. ☺
Or at least until I manage to find some logic.

Ooneykcall Ooneykcall December 20, 2014 December 20, 2014 at 1:16:07 AM UTC flag Report link Permalink

Seems rather clear to me: the relative pronoun (der) would require 3rd person — isn't that the case in English?
Wait... is it the case? the quick google (re)search I've done apparently shows that both occur, e.g. "I, who see" and "I, who sees"? in lofty speech, obviously. And the search for Russian shows the same: both grammatical and notional agreement present. That's not something I would have expected, though it makes sense... But I myself would use the grammatical one here, i.e. 3rd person regardless of the personal pronoun that precedes the relative one, without hesitation. I guess that's my particular preference, though not a conscious one at that, at least not up to this point.

Well then, I suppose that in German, which is renowned for being more orderly, the grammatical 3rd-person verb agreement is required here; however, even German-speaking people do not like to trade too much of sentence smoothness in favour of orderly grammar, and have resorted to breaking the order by placing an additional personal pronoun after the relative one to validate changing the agreement and thus clarifying the structure. At the same time, the other, orderly option is still available for those wishing to be stringent, of course. :)

Eldad Eldad December 20, 2014 December 20, 2014 at 1:23:45 AM UTC flag Report link Permalink

Thanks. I did consider that (trying to look for inherent logic), but couldn't place ", der du" together. I hope that after reading your explanation tomorrow (for the third time), I'll be able to grasp it. ☺

Eldad Eldad December 20, 2014 December 20, 2014 at 1:27:46 AM UTC flag Report link Permalink

OK, I believe I'm beginning to understand the logic now.
I looked for "du der du" on Google. Reading the various occurrences, it starts to become clearer.

brauchinet brauchinet December 20, 2014 December 20, 2014 at 10:44:13 AM UTC flag Report link Permalink

found these on Tatoeba:
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/482597
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/3427769
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/2198778

tommy_san tommy_san December 20, 2014 December 20, 2014 at 11:01:06 AM UTC flag Report link Permalink

Noch einige Beispiele:

#2353535 Ich, der ich weiß, mir einzubilden, dass ich weiß, nichts zu wissen, weiß, dass ich nichts weiß. (Esperantostern)
#1306202 Selbst ich, der ich viel träume, kenne Zeiten, in denen der Traum mich flieht. Dann erscheinen mir die Dinge deutlich. Der Nebel, in den ich mich hülle, löst sich auf. Und alle sichtbaren Kanten verletzen das Fleisch meiner Seele. Alles wahrnehmbar Harte schmerzt, denn ich erkenne es als hart. Alles sichtbare Gewicht der Dinge lastet auf mir im Inneren meiner Seele. (al_ex_an_der)
#2429775 Für mich, die ich lange Jahre unter einer Pollenallergie litt, war dieses Mittel wirklich wie eine Erlösung. (Pfirsichbaeumchen)

#2177526 Ach, wir, die wir den Boden bereiten wollen für Freundlichkeit, konnten selber nicht freundlich sein. (Esperantostern)
#1256387 Wir, die wir stark sind, müssen die Schwächen der Schwachen tragen, und nicht uns selbst gefallen. (al_ex_an_der)
#3139894 Warum gehen wir, die wir wissen, dass im Weltraum unendlich viele Galaxien existieren, und dass jede Galaxie eine unermessliche Menge von Planeten enthält, davon aus, dass es nur auf der Erde Lebewesen gibt? (al_ex_an_der)
#2394331 Ja wir, die wir kollektiv zu Trotteln erklärt werden, warum machen wir denn eigentlich Politik? Ganz einfach: Weil die, die uns zu Trotteln erklären, es auch nicht besser können als wir, denn sonst würden sie es ja machen. (Esperantostern)

Eldad Eldad December 20, 2014 December 20, 2014 at 11:07:12 AM UTC flag Report link Permalink

Thank you very much, for all the examples.
They are very illuminating.

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License: CC BY 2.0 FR

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This sentence was initially added as a translation of sentence #1140306Ô le plus fou de tous les hommes, toi qui aspires à la sagesse!.

Du, der nach der Weisheit strebst, bist der närristischte unter den Menschen!

added by Tamy, December 19, 2014

Du, der nach der Weisheit strebt, bist der närristischte unter den Menschen!

edited by Tamy, December 19, 2014

Du, der du nach Weisheit strebst, bist der närrischtste unter den Menschen!

edited by Tamy, December 19, 2014

Du, der du nach Weisheit strebst, bist der närrischste unter den Menschen!

edited by Tamy, December 19, 2014