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blay_paul blay_paul August 30, 2010 August 30, 2010 at 10:18:12 AM UTC link Permalink

Moving from comments because the sentence has been deleted as a copyright violation.

Only one of the two dictionary entries had 'no-one' as an also note. Also the BBC agrees with me, and they're always right ;-)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservi...agepoint.shtml

BBC Learning English

"No-one is written with a hyphen between the two 'o's."

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Demetrius Demetrius August 30, 2010 August 30, 2010 at 10:19:26 AM UTC link Permalink

Theoretical question. Is it correct to write noöne? :)

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blay_paul blay_paul August 30, 2010 August 30, 2010 at 10:25:34 AM UTC link Permalink

> Is it correct to write noöne? :)

Not in English. 'noone' isn't correct in English either.

Being serious for a moment, no-one is more common in British English than in American English (as far as those two things exist), and is still less common than 'no one'. I think the only people to denounce it as 'incorrect', though, are those who decry 'To boldly go' as a split-infinitive and correct people who use 'whom' instead of 'who'.

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minshirui minshirui August 30, 2010 August 30, 2010 at 11:00:04 AM UTC link Permalink

Definitely not incorrect, just uncommon. Hyphenations is an area of consternation even for native readers and writers of English. For example, just the other day, I was wondering whether it was "non-sense" or "nonsense". In the end, I just looked up my trusty OED, which said "nonsense".

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blay_paul blay_paul August 30, 2010 August 30, 2010 at 11:09:39 AM UTC link Permalink

> I just looked up my trusty OED

http://www.pocket-lint.com/news...ish-dictionary

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minshirui minshirui August 30, 2010 August 30, 2010 at 11:10:51 AM UTC link Permalink

And by "my trusty OED", I meant that OED that comes bundled with Mac OS X, so I look it up by using the ever-so-convenient Dashboard widget. =)

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais August 30, 2010 August 30, 2010 at 2:00:58 PM UTC link Permalink

> Not in English. 'noone' isn't correct in English either.

I distinctly remember my high school English teacher going over this, and saying that "noone" was technically the correct way to do it. And everyone was like "What?!" But yea, no one does it that way, really. She didn't make us do it, either.

Swift Swift August 30, 2010 August 30, 2010 at 1:33:29 PM UTC link Permalink

:-) I'd never thought of that. I reckon that theoretically it could be used (as in naïve to split the digraph).

Searching reveals some use on-line but since Wiktionary calls it obsolete, there are hardly enough advocates to claim common use.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/no%C3%B6ne

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais August 29, 2010 August 29, 2010 at 11:50:24 PM UTC link Permalink

Maybe I'm the only one who finds the auto-completion feature on the tag more of a burden than a benefit... but could it be possible to implement a "turn-off autocomplete" option?

It often either suggests to me tags that were entered erroneously and then deleted, or a whole list of tags from which the one I want is somewhere in the middle. The problem is that hitting the return key doesn't implement the tag I've typed, but rather selects the first tag on the list.

Really, really annoying...

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Swift Swift August 30, 2010 August 30, 2010 at 3:48:58 AM UTC link Permalink

I happen to really love the autocomplete. It works perfectly for me (type, arrow down to the correct entry, enter, tab, enter), makes it easier to find the precise name of the tag (well, once we get rid of the empty or duplicate ones) and reduces the likelyhood that people enter a new tag with a typo or in a slightly different form.

I haven't tried making "accidental" tags, but "proverbb" doesn't show up when entering "prov...". Is it possible that this is an issue with your browser, rather than the script.

If I were to make a suggestion for improving the tag form, I'd suggest a notice for creating tags. Something like when adding or deleting links, informing one that this particular tag currently doesn't exist and asking whether one really wants to create it.

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FeuDRenais FeuDRenais August 30, 2010 August 30, 2010 at 12:44:09 PM UTC link Permalink

> I haven't tried making "accidental" tags, but "proverbb" doesn't show up when entering "prov...". Is it possible that this is an issue with your browser, rather than the script.

That's because this was a hypothetical example. Try typing in 2nd, and see if you get "2nd personn" as the first choice.

But yes, I do also have an issue with my browser where it often won't let me scroll down with the arrow keys. That would be an individual problem.

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Demetrius Demetrius August 30, 2010 August 30, 2010 at 12:58:08 PM UTC link Permalink

"2nd p" brings "2nd personn", while "2nd P" brings normal variants.

It seems the problem is that tag autocompletion is case-sensitive, while tags aren’t.

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Swift Swift August 30, 2010 August 30, 2010 at 1:55:12 PM UTC link Permalink

I believe Sysko's going to make it non-case-sensitive at some point. But, yes, there are so many grammatical person tags:
http://martin.swift.is/tatoeba/...#grammarperson
The best way to fix your problem and make these tags more useful would be to merge them. I'll be done with the quotes tags soon, and was going to move on to this sort of stuff next.

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FeuDRenais FeuDRenais August 30, 2010 August 30, 2010 at 1:59:21 PM UTC link Permalink

The procedure for grammatical tags is pretty simple, IMO:

1) Replace all "(Language)" with "". (this one was my fault, as I didn't know you could sort tags by language at one point)

2) Decompose all the "[# Person] [formal/informal/plural/singular]" into two tags (one for the person, and one for the degree of formality, etc). I think that I'm prolly responsible for about 90% of the grammatical tags...

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Swift Swift August 30, 2010 August 30, 2010 at 2:27:34 PM UTC link Permalink

I agree with the re-tagging scheme but we'll have to hear from Trang or Sysko as to how best to implement this. With the number of sentences tagged, it will be best to run a database command on this.

It'll probably be something along the lines of:

1) tag every setnence in "X Y Z[/V] (W)" under "X Y", "Z" and "V"
2) remove the "X Y Z[/V] (W)" tag from its sentences and delete it.

sysko sysko August 30, 2010 August 30, 2010 at 12:06:37 AM UTC link Permalink

In fact I've figured there's a problem in sorting, it should normaly propose "proverb" as first suggestion when you type "p" , but for a strange reason it's not working. So I think it's maybe a first reason why is not so pratical ?

for the enter key which select the first suggestion rather than what you've typed, it's was anyway something for "test". I don't know if you know, but you instead of typing as fast as you can, just press "escape". If other people prefer also to press down arrow/click on the first suggestion and then enter "enter key", I will change it, because anyway I've added it to make user's life easier ^^

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FeuDRenais FeuDRenais August 30, 2010 August 30, 2010 at 12:58:57 AM UTC link Permalink

I think the bug with the erroneous tags should probably be looked into, as well. For example, if I misspell "proverb" as "proverbb", and then delete the tag and enter the correct one, the autocomplete remembers the incorrect (even though no sentences have that tag). So next time if I want to tag, I'll get "proverbb" as the first choice. I guess I'll try using escape more often.

Sorry, sysko, I know you put a lot of work into it.

blay_paul blay_paul August 29, 2010 August 29, 2010 at 11:57:56 PM UTC link Permalink

I find it annoying sometimes, but I can live with it.

Firefox has a good auto-complete feature anyway, so it doesn't do much for me.

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FeuDRenais FeuDRenais August 30, 2010 August 30, 2010 at 12:56:06 AM UTC link Permalink

> Firefox has a good auto-complete feature anyway, so it doesn't do much for me.

You can get them to work together? Because my Firefox autocomplete is gone now... I kind of want it back.

FeuDRenais FeuDRenais August 29, 2010 August 29, 2010 at 11:51:29 PM UTC link Permalink

In fact, I often find myself racing against the system, and typing the tag I want as quickly as I can so that the auto-complete doesn't have time to activate...

sysko sysko August 29, 2010 August 29, 2010 at 8:52:39 PM UTC link Permalink

If you see content which can possibly be extract from recent book / movie / lyrics or even if you're not sure, please tag them as "possible copyright violation", thanks :)

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adjusting adjusting August 30, 2010 August 30, 2010 at 1:20:09 AM UTC link Permalink

IANAL, but wouldn't a single sentence fall under the category of fair use/fair dealing?

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sysko sysko August 30, 2010 August 30, 2010 at 10:09:16 AM UTC link Permalink

No, because even for single sentences at school we used to study the following case:
In a guide for tourist there used to be a paragraph about the Champagne region (where I'm from, really nice place, you should come ^^), talking about wines etc. etc. A Champagne productor takes one these sentences and used them on his bottles, but soon the author from the guide bring suit. The judge state that this sentence even a single one could be "copyrighted", because the sentence contain enough "style" to be considered a something unique who has needed works.
So yep "I eat an apple" don't fall on this case, but I'm sure that people wanting to include a sentence are more likely to do it for a "with style" sentences.
Moreover the equivalent of "fair use" in French law is really precise and strict, it's only for educational/illustrating purpose if we locate the quote in the original book, precise the author etc.
So here I see 2 problems
1 - Will every single users know about this and even if they know, will they take time to add them the way the law says it should be? Do moderators have time to check that?
2 - Tatoeba content is licensed under the CC-BY license, which mean that commercial use are allowed, so does it break the "education/illustrating" purpose ?

To be honnest, I really don't have the time to check all of this, and we're not enough moderator to cover everything. And even if we had time, do we really need quote from books, for sure some are interesting etc. I mean does this deserve we took time to check the law AND take care about how contributors add quote (in the case it's legal) ?

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Swift Swift August 30, 2010 August 30, 2010 at 1:13:25 PM UTC link Permalink

From my perspective, a sentence will benefit Tatoeba if it illustrates the use of a word or phrase in a natural sentence and is linked to one or more corresponding sentences in other languages. Content from published sources may be helpful but certainly isn't necessary.

blay_paul blay_paul August 30, 2010 August 30, 2010 at 7:17:21 AM UTC link Permalink

The thing is that you need to be a French lawyer specialising in copyright.

I think even if they do fall under the French equivalent of fair use they have to have the source noted here _and_ in any third party re-use of the Tatoeba project data. AFAIK, at present there is not a good way to do that (maybe Tags would be enough?).

boracasli boracasli August 29, 2010 August 29, 2010 at 5:41:38 PM UTC link Permalink

Chinese, Japanese, French, English, German, Italian and Spanish are the first languages of Tatoeba?

I want the Tatoeba language chronology.

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Demetrius Demetrius August 29, 2010 August 29, 2010 at 8:31:53 PM UTC link Permalink

Many English and Japanese are from Tanaka corpus. It existed before Tatoeba.

English, Russian, Vietnamese, Korean, Japanese, Dutch, French, Spanish, Chinese, German and Portuguese were first, I think. But I'm not sure.

blay_paul blay_paul August 29, 2010 August 29, 2010 at 8:23:08 PM UTC link Permalink

Repeat request.

Could we please have the ability to download all sentences with a tag, the same way we can download all sentences in a list?

sysko sysko August 29, 2010 August 29, 2010 at 4:57:44 PM UTC link Permalink

Wrong transliteration,

I will try soon, to make possible for modos / trusted users to edit them, trough a "special" page, I haven't check yet, but maybe we can agree on a tag for "wrong transliteration", this way when this feature will be ready, we will be able to edit them.

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blay_paul blay_paul August 29, 2010 August 29, 2010 at 5:02:00 PM UTC link Permalink

Japanese ones have a list.
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences_lists/show/113

Note that it would be really useful to be able to search on the 'furigana line' (e.g. search on 人気(おとなげ) vs 人気(にんき), etc.)

blay_paul blay_paul August 29, 2010 August 29, 2010 at 11:03:05 AM UTC link Permalink

Fun with Lists.

Go the the Lists page and look at how many examples are in "English and French don't match."

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sacredceltic sacredceltic August 29, 2010 August 29, 2010 at 12:43:50 PM UTC link Permalink

It looks like Muiriel has been hyperactive, adding around 16 millions entries to the list overnight. What did you have for breakfast, Muiriel?

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MUIRIEL MUIRIEL August 29, 2010 August 29, 2010 at 12:50:50 PM UTC link Permalink

Oh no, Demetrius, sacredceltic is slandering me!

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sacredceltic sacredceltic August 29, 2010 August 29, 2010 at 12:57:20 PM UTC link Permalink

I know what you're trying to do: Make all lists contain a prime number of items, don't you? How pervert is that?

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MUIRIEL MUIRIEL August 29, 2010 August 29, 2010 at 1:00:33 PM UTC link Permalink

Oh no, sysko, sacredceltic is claiming I was pervert!

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sacredceltic sacredceltic August 29, 2010 August 29, 2010 at 1:18:49 PM UTC link Permalink

well done, now this is going to indexed by Google and both our pseudos will be indexed under "pervert"...
Expect the police to ring your bell anytime...

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MUIRIEL MUIRIEL August 29, 2010 August 29, 2010 at 1:23:05 PM UTC link Permalink

your work^^!

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sacredceltic sacredceltic August 29, 2010 August 29, 2010 at 1:23:41 PM UTC link Permalink

Well you could have chosen a non-prime number !

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MUIRIEL MUIRIEL August 29, 2010 August 29, 2010 at 1:24:17 PM UTC link Permalink

non-prime numbers aren't pervert?

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sacredceltic sacredceltic August 29, 2010 August 29, 2010 at 1:27:17 PM UTC link Permalink

No but seeking primeness in word lists is very much so !

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MUIRIEL MUIRIEL August 29, 2010 August 29, 2010 at 1:29:58 PM UTC link Permalink

congratulations, you just admitted you're pervert - you were seeking for primeness, I wasn't!

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sacredceltic sacredceltic August 29, 2010 August 29, 2010 at 1:30:37 PM UTC link Permalink

I wasn't! It was just looking prime !

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MUIRIEL MUIRIEL August 29, 2010 August 29, 2010 at 1:36:02 PM UTC link Permalink

Soso (<- German).

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sacredceltic sacredceltic August 29, 2010 August 29, 2010 at 1:39:09 PM UTC link Permalink

I swear that at the time I wrote this, I didn't know it was one. I just intended it as a joke and as the number was 10 digits, I hoped nobody would actually check...

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MUIRIEL MUIRIEL August 29, 2010 August 29, 2010 at 1:48:37 PM UTC link Permalink

yes, I guessed exactly this - you just intended it as a joke, so I had no interest to check if it really was^^.

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sacredceltic sacredceltic August 29, 2010 August 29, 2010 at 2:02:00 PM UTC link Permalink

But the fact it, it is and this is your list...

sacredceltic sacredceltic August 29, 2010 August 29, 2010 at 1:41:22 PM UTC link Permalink

*8 digits, actually.
Maybe sysko will be able to reveal why this number is actually prime. I am interested to know, now...

Demetrius Demetrius August 29, 2010 August 29, 2010 at 8:27:25 PM UTC link Permalink

I wasn't here to hear you when you've written this. :)

minshirui minshirui August 29, 2010 August 29, 2010 at 11:32:23 AM UTC link Permalink

Well, now we know that something is using 24-bit integers behind-the-scenes...

Pharamp Pharamp August 29, 2010 August 29, 2010 at 11:45:16 AM UTC link Permalink

Scaring.

sysko sysko August 29, 2010 August 29, 2010 at 4:13:36 PM UTC link Permalink

corrected ^^

Goofy Goofy August 29, 2010 August 29, 2010 at 11:40:20 AM UTC link Permalink

[to French-speaking contributors]

Bonjour :)
J'aiamerais savoir si sur Tatoeba existe déjà un petit guide de préconisations à l'attention des francophones pour rappeler les règles de typographie et autres du genre :
* espace avant les ? ! :
* guillemets français : « »

et autres...

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TRANG TRANG August 29, 2010 August 29, 2010 at 12:49:52 PM UTC link Permalink

Non pas encore.

Nous sommes au courant que tout le monde ne connaît pas les règles, cependant mis à part les majuscules en début de phrase et les points à la fin, nous ne sommes pas encore trop pointilleux à ce sujet parce qu'on sait que certains caractères ne sont pas directement accessible au clavier et que c'est pénible de les entrer.

On compte mettre en place un script pour corriger automatiquement la typographie.

boracasli boracasli August 29, 2010 August 29, 2010 at 12:08:10 PM UTC link Permalink

I first teach the computer terms to cburgmer.

blay_paul blay_paul August 28, 2010 August 28, 2010 at 7:41:09 PM UTC link Permalink

English and French don't match.

http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences_lists/show/32

Could someone go through this list (45 sentences) and add English translations in the comments for the French sentences?

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Pharamp Pharamp August 28, 2010 August 28, 2010 at 9:21:43 PM UTC link Permalink

As you could see, I'm working on it :)
For some sentences I don't know, a better speaker of English should check at my place!

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blay_paul blay_paul August 28, 2010 August 28, 2010 at 9:33:59 PM UTC link Permalink

Good progress - only nine left to do.

Pharamp Pharamp August 28, 2010 August 28, 2010 at 9:41:03 PM UTC link Permalink

I created http://tatoeba.org/eng/tags/sho...ranslate_en-fr

If someone has the time to do it... :)