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sacredceltic sacredceltic September 27, 2010 September 27, 2010 at 10:31:54 AM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

Je tiens à soulever ici le problème de l'intervention de modérateurs pour arbitrer des différents de définition de langages qui ne sont pas les leurs.
En effet, je me trouve de manière répétée dans la situation suivante;
1) un non-natif crée une phrase dans ma langue natale
2) j'indique qu'un mot de cette phrase ne fait pas partie de cette langue
3) L'auteur, par des pirouettes multiples, prétend à l'appartenance à un dialecte imaginaire
4) des modérateurs non-natifs de cette langue, voire qui ne la parlent pas du tout interviennent dans le débat, pour certains EN ANGLAIS, au mépris de la langue d'origine de la discussion et prétendent vouloir définir ce qu'est un dialecte ou un anglicisme de la langue dont ils ne sont pas natifs ou qu'ils ne parlent même pas du tout.

J'estime que les modérateurs non-natifs de la langue en question outrepassent leur droit d'intervention quand ils prennent parti dans un tel débat, d'autant plus quand ils ne parlent pas cette langue.
Et en tout état de cause, il est encore plus inacceptable que ces mêmes modérateurs interviennent dans ces débats dans LEUR LANGUE, plutôt que dans la langue en question.

J'attire l'attention sur le fait que les anglophones sont particulièrement mal placés pour définir des langues comme le français et les règles qui peuvent s'y appliquer puisque ces langues sont des constructions totalement différentes, avec des histoires différentes, des objets différents, des institutions différentes, des références différentes.
Par ailleurs, la notion de dialecte ne saurait être étendue à l'acceptation de vocabulaire d'une langue étrangère traduit mot à mot et utilisé par des non-natifs de la langue concernée, auquel cas nous serions obligés de considérer que tous les mots de toutes les langues sont acceptés dans toutes les langues, ce qui serait une absurdité et finirait par les diluer dans une espèce de magma sans nom.
Je constate ainsi que des milliers de phrases françaises (et j'imagine d'autres langues), dont beaucoup sont douteuses, sont détenues par des non-natifs militants de ce "dialectalisme effrené". A cette échelle, cela met en cause la validité et la crédibilité du corpus de la langue considérée et démotive les contributeurs natifs qui voient leurs contributions de qualité à égalité avec ces traductions fantaisistes.
La proposition systématique des modérateurs, sorte de sésame universel, est d'appliquer des étiquettes adéquats.
Mais ceci pose 2 problèmes:
1) les phrases valides et non valides restent à égalité visuelle, donc par exemple pour un apprenant qui ne lirait pas les étiquettes (voire qui ne saurait pas les comprendre), elle sont également valides.
2) les tags peuvent être appliqués et supprimés par les modérateurs sans laisser de trace, ce qui ramène au problème de l'indépendance de la modération.

Je fais par ailleurs remarquer qu'il n'est pas non plus acceptable que des modérateurs dont la fonction est, justement, la modération, prennent parti dans le débat et caricaturent l'opinion des contributeurs, voire appellent au meurtre de ceux qui ont une opinion différente d'eux, comme ici http://tatoeba.org/epo/sentences/show/535374
Illustration du problème ici http://tatoeba.org/epo/sentence...90706#comments

blay_paul blay_paul September 26, 2010 September 26, 2010 at 5:14:37 PM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

A couple of weeks ago or so I noticed that there were only 200 Japanese sentences not translated into English. I asked for a 'Japanese->English translation drive' and actually got that down to 182 (IIRC).

So, today, I've just got it down to 181 sentences from 202. At this rate it should take just under seven years to translate all Japanese sentences into English.

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Demetrius Demetrius September 27, 2010 September 27, 2010 at 12:21:47 AM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

I don’t think it’s a big problem.

Since no one added a translation to these, maybe they're just too hard to translate. :o

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CK CK September 27, 2010, October 26, 2019 de ame/ê pergalkerdene September 27, 2010 at 12:41:29 AM UTC, October 26, 2019 at 4:08:53 AM UTC de ame/ê pergalkerdene flag Report link Lînko payîdar

[not needed anymore- removed by CK]

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blay_paul blay_paul September 27, 2010 September 27, 2010 at 12:47:28 AM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

> How about the 8,000 plus English sentences not yet translated into Japanese? :-)

Somebody else's problem.

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FeuDRenais FeuDRenais September 27, 2010 September 27, 2010 at 1:03:30 AM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

Somebody else's problem that likely won't be fixed... given the current daily ratio of English:Japanese contributions.

Scott Scott September 27, 2010 September 27, 2010 at 3:26:39 AM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

How about the 128 298 Japanese sentences not yet translated into French?

Scott Scott September 27, 2010 September 27, 2010 at 3:25:33 AM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

It's closer to a hundred now.

blay_paul blay_paul September 26, 2010 September 26, 2010 at 2:51:58 PM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

So, any chance of getting the broken tags fixed?

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sysko sysko September 26, 2010 September 26, 2010 at 2:57:46 PM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

yep, but when I will have time, I've spend the few free times I had this weekend, to fix the duplicate script, and a bug when changing the flag of a sentence (it didn't update correctly some internal structures)

esocom esocom September 26, 2010 September 26, 2010 at 2:01:31 PM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

Kiu viŝis ĵus pli ol 400 frazojn en Esperanto kaj kial?

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sacredceltic sacredceltic September 26, 2010 September 26, 2010 at 2:13:01 PM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

http://tatoeba.org/epo/wall/sho...3#message_3313

sysko sysko September 26, 2010 September 26, 2010 at 1:59:43 PM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

I've run the remove duplicates script

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sysko sysko September 26, 2010 September 26, 2010 at 2:04:48 PM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

so it's why the number of sentences in some languages may have decrease

by the way overall, we have now more than 500 000 sentences ! (515 000 to be exact)
Congratulations to everyone, some months ago I would have never imagine we will reach it so fast. Next step, 1 000 000 :p

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sacredceltic sacredceltic September 26, 2010 September 26, 2010 at 2:12:20 PM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

tu es sûr que ça a marché ? Parce que j'ai du mal à croire que ça n'aie pas diminué le nombre de phrases anglaises parmi lesquelles je vois évidemment le plus de doublons puisqu'elles sont les plus nombreuses...

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sysko sysko September 26, 2010 September 26, 2010 at 2:33:39 PM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

oui car ensuite j'ai fait un "select count(*) , text, lang from sentences group by text, lang having count(*) > 1" qui me montre les phrases en double, et il n'en reste plus qu'une dizaine qui ont rajouté entre temps (le script a tourné hier en soirée)
Mais le nombre de phrase anglaise a baissé, après il est vrai que beaucoup des phrases anglaises se ressemblent parfois à un mot près ou à un singulier pluriel près.

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sacredceltic sacredceltic September 26, 2010 September 26, 2010 at 2:43:58 PM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

Bon, ben au temps pour moi. Tu as sans doute raison que les ressemblances sont illusoires.

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sysko sysko September 26, 2010 September 26, 2010 at 2:55:09 PM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

Mais il est vrai en tout cas qu'il serait intéressant de voir, surtout pour l'Anglais, le nombre de phrase réellement différentes. Il me semble que dans le même ordre idée, voir un peu la richesse réelle du corpus, CK avait établi des statistiques sur le nombre de mots différents dans le corpus, et la fréquence de certain. Ce qui n'était pas forcément très glorieux (c'est pour cela que dans les versions futures, il nous faudra trouver divers moyens pour favoriser l'ajout de nouvelles phrases, et si possible contenant du nouveau vocabulaire)

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sacredceltic sacredceltic September 26, 2010 September 26, 2010 at 3:02:22 PM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

Et ça n'est pas simple d'évaluer la notion de "différence". Tatoeba va justement permettre la créativité en matière d'instruments d'analyse...Je suis impatient de voir tout ça !

aloannguyen aloannguyen September 26, 2010 September 26, 2010 at 11:18:01 AM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

Do we have a category in which we can write down our idea in a language (this states the idea, not exactly in word using or grammar) and ask the native speaker to translate it into that language? This will be helpful for those whose mother tougue is not popular and they want to learn a popular language.

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blay_paul blay_paul September 26, 2010 September 26, 2010 at 11:51:08 AM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

I'm not sure quite what you mean. Could you give us an actual example?

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sysko sysko September 26, 2010 September 26, 2010 at 11:55:10 AM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

I think it's somewhat a "request for sentence"

something like "hey folks, I want to know what do English people say when they want to go the cinema and they've missed the first projection, they're at the cinema already, and want to ask when is the next one"
and a nice guy, with a blue-backgrounded avatar will answer by inputing a sentence in tatoeba :p

@aloanguyen is this what you want ?

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aloannguyen aloannguyen September 26, 2010 September 26, 2010 at 12:15:32 PM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

Sure it is :D

aloannguyen aloannguyen September 26, 2010 September 26, 2010 at 11:57:21 AM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

I mean that when a non-native speaker has got the idea but he doesn't know how write down that idea exactly in a language, he can share that idea and someone else helps him to rewrite that idea correctly. Take the English language as an example, a non-native could write: "Life is full of advantages and disadvantages", a native speaker would rewrite: "Life is full of the ups and down"

contour contour September 26, 2010 September 26, 2010 at 12:39:38 PM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

I've been thinking about this, too. I sometimes come across words or expressions that don't have a usage example, but don't feel confident enough to construct a suitable sentence for Tatoeba. It would be nice to request a sentence that uses word or idiom X.
Maybe a thought for the future if we get a forum. We could have a request board with per-language threads.

jubinell jubinell September 26, 2010 September 26, 2010 at 3:11:08 AM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

Shouldn't there be ways to rate a sentence/translation that has been put up here? I'm already seeing a couple of bogus examples (:

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blay_paul blay_paul September 26, 2010 September 26, 2010 at 3:28:04 AM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

Typically you should post a comment on the sentence in question. If the sentence is not 'owned' you can 'adopt' (own) it and then correct it yourself.

But if you do correct sentences, bear in mind that it's more complicated when they have direct links to translations in several languages.

boracasli boracasli September 25, 2010 September 25, 2010 at 7:56:52 PM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

blay_paul, please tag as

"Azeri":
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/532213

"Thai":
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/532218

"Wolof":
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/532307

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sysko sysko September 25, 2010 September 25, 2010 at 9:31:20 PM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

I've said something boracasli, so you know what will happen when I will be back...

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boracasli boracasli September 25, 2010 September 25, 2010 at 9:33:34 PM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

i want to be informationed about the next update

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FeuDRenais FeuDRenais September 25, 2010 September 25, 2010 at 9:52:02 PM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

*informed

zmoo zmoo September 26, 2010 September 26, 2010 at 1:10:10 AM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

Do you speak Wolof, boracasli?

landano landano September 25, 2010 September 25, 2010 at 11:26:32 PM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

On the statistics page of all contributors, it would be nice if one could restrict the list to the contributors of a certain language.

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sysko sysko September 25, 2010 September 25, 2010 at 11:31:58 PM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

yep good idea, I've added it to the things we will need to implement on the next version http://www.assembla.com/spaces/tatoeba2/tickets
(by the way having this ticket system open to every members can also be a good idea ^^)

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landano landano September 25, 2010 September 25, 2010 at 11:55:04 PM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

Great, thanks!

Tonari Tonari September 25, 2010 September 25, 2010 at 8:33:14 PM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

Hi. I have a question about strangely formed chinese sentences, like this ones:
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/388335
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/532677
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/532554
I believe it is some bug of former versions of Tatoeba? I'm facing such sentences very often - almost one of every three sentences.
Does new versions of Tatoeba will fix it? Or somebody (may be me?) should fix it manually? If so - what should I do to gain an access to fix it?

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blay_paul blay_paul September 25, 2010 September 25, 2010 at 8:45:56 PM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

Possibly some sort of encoding / IME problem?

You could start a list
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences_lists/index
and call it "[@moderator] Encoding problem/mojibake" or something. That way it would be easier to find them later to fix them.

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sysko sysko September 25, 2010 September 25, 2010 at 9:26:37 PM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

In fact it's a bug from the software we use, see http://tatoeba.org/fre/wall/sho...7#message_2530 :)

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Shishir Shishir September 29, 2010 September 29, 2010 at 4:59:40 PM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

I've also found some Chinese sentences that have no transliteration at all, nor simplified version, such as:

http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/505658
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/417338
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/417339

Can anything be done about it?

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sysko sysko September 29, 2010 September 29, 2010 at 5:07:51 PM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

it's the hard version of the bug :s , so it will be solved the same way.

Tonari Tonari September 25, 2010 September 25, 2010 at 8:49:29 PM UTC flag Report link Lînko payîdar

Okay, I'll do it. Thank you.