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sharptoothed
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http://tatoeba.org/fre/contribu...r/veryoldbooks continue à faire des phrases, alors que nous savons bien qu'il s'agit du énième avatar de boracasli qui a sans cesse saboté Tatoeba et pourri la vie de nombreux contributeurs, dont la mienne...
[epo]
Mi ŝatus insisti ke kontribuantoj ne tradukas frazojn kiu ne estas aŭ posedataj/skribitaj de denaskaj aŭ fidindaj kontribuantoj en la lingvo aŭ/kaj etikedita"OK" de denaskaj, alie, ni finas kun ĉenoj de tradukoj de komenca ne natura frazo kaj mi vidas tion pli ol tro ofte...
Frazoj kiuj havas neniun posedanton devus esti konsiderita SUSPEKTINDAJ kaj ankaŭ estas frazoj kiu estas posedata de ne-denaskaj aŭ mem-proklamitaj-denaskaj.
Tio ĉi estas kunlabora entrepreno kaj ĝia kvalito devas baziĝi sur fidon. Oni ne povas nur fidi novan kontribuanton ĉar ili asertas esti estona kaj insertis 10 frazojn...
Mia regulo estas konsideri suspekta ajnan kontribuaĵon ĝis elprovita ĝusta.
Frazoj kiuj estis sen-posedataj suspektindaj !
Bonvolu prioritate traduki frazojn de fidindaj kaj preferinde denaskaj kontribuantoj.
[fra]
J'aimerais insister que les contributeurs ne traduisent pas de phrases qui ne soient pas soit détenues soit écrites par des natifs ou des contributeurs fiables dans la langue, ou qui n'ont pas été étiquetées « OK » par des natifs, autrement, on termine avec des chaînes de traduction d'une phrase initiale non naturelle, et je vois cela se produire bien trop souvent...
Les phrases n'ayant pas de propriétaire doivent être considérées SUSPECTES, et il en va de même pour les phrases qui sont détenues par des non-natifs ou par des natifs auto-proclamés.
Ceci est une entreprise collaborative et sa qualité doit reposer sur la confiance. On ne peut pas simplement faire confiance à un nouveau contributeur parce qu'il prétend être Estonien et a inséré 10 phrases...
Ma règle est de considérer suspecte n'importe quelle contribution jusqu'à ce qu'elle soit prouvée correcte.
Les phrases dont la possession a été reniée SONT suspectes !
Merci de traduire en priorité des contributeurs fiables et de préférence natifs.
[eng]
I would like to insist that contributors don't translate sentences that are not either owned/written by natives or by trustable contributors in the language or/and "OK" tagged by natives, otherwise, we end up with chains of translations of an initial non natural sentence, and I see this more than too often...
Sentences that have no owner should be considered SUSPECT, and so are sentences that are owned by non-natives or self-proclaimed-natives.
This is a collaborative enterprise and its quality must rely on trust. You cannot just trust a new contributor because they claim to be Estonian and have inserted 10 sentences...
My rule is to consider suspect any contribution until proven correct.
Sentences that have been unowned ARE suspect !
Please translate in priority sentences from trustable and preferably native contributors.
Speaking of tags, I have noticed that there are several tags that should be merged. First examples:
1. Bible, from the Bible
2. by Friedrich Schiller, by Friedrich von Schiller (suggestion: "by Friedrich von Schiller", because Goethe's tag also has the "von")
Then there are several kinds of tags used for quotes from Tatoeba members, for example
by sacredceltic, by Tatoeba:sacredceltic, by Tatoeba: sacredceltic, by Tatoeba sacredceltic,
by Alexander, by Tatoeba: al_ex_an_der, by Tatoeba al_ex_an_der, by Tatoeba:al_ex_an_der,*
i.e. with or without the word "Tatoeba", with or without a colon, with or without a space after the colon.
These should be unified.
* "al_ex_an_der" is definitely a lot harder to type than "Pfirsichbaeumchen"! ☺
More examples:
1. translated-proverb, translated proverb
2. translated-quote, translated quote
3. translated-poem, translated poem
I would suggest the unhyphenated version. (The tag "translated-idiom" should be adapted then.)
4. idiome, idiom, idiomatic expression
5. poem, poetry
yes you're right about it, i used to do such merging in the past, basically i think the best way to handle it is
1 - we take one case : for example the "idiome/idiom/idiomatic expression"
2 - people discuss about which one is the best
3 - once one is chosen i merge them
Note: step 2 may be never-ending but of course with people keeping focus, we should quickly arrive to step 3 , and then quickly jump to an other "case" etc.
Yes, that sounds fair and reasonable. I'll make a start then.
For Tatoeba quotes, I suggest the format "by Tatoeba username" (e.g. "by Tatoeba sacredceltic").
1. Bible, from the Bible → from the Bible
2. by Friedrich Schiller, by Friedrich von Schiller → by Friedrich von Schiller
3. translated-proverb, translated proverb → translated proverb
4. translated-quote, translated quote → translated quote
5. translated-poem, translated poem → translated poem
6. idiome, idiom, idiomatic expression → idiom
7. poem, poetry → poetry
8. comment on sentence, recycling of comments, recycling comments → comment on sentence
>8. comment on sentence, recycling of comments, recycling comments → comment on sentence
"comment on sentence" means that the comments somehow shed light on the sentence in order to better understand its meaning or form, when for instance, the sentence could be somewhat odd or seem unnatural out of context...
"recycling comments" was invented by me with a different purpose : it's sentences that I have "stolen" from comments on Tatoeba (I always also indicate the author with a tag "by Tatoeba: <contributor's pseudo>", because I think the comments are a useful resource of natural sentences and we can also learn from it.
I have similarly created the tag "recycling the wall".
Maybe the 2 could be regrouped into "recycling Tatoeba", but I think indicating the precise source enables to know where to dig if you're interested to search the context in which that particular sentence was written on the wall or in the comments...
just a reminder :)
http://tatoeba.org/deu/wall/show_message/12848
Yes, you're right. I would choose "from the Bible" and "Friedrich Schiller", if only because they have less sentences and so would be easier to change. I agree with the unhyphenated version. There's possibly a difference between idiom and idiomatic expression.
yep for the bible I think keeping the same
from SOURCE will permit an easier conversion in the future when I will move these tags to dedicated metadata like
KEY => VALUE
author => sacredceltic/Goethe
source => The bible/L'île mystèrieuse
etc.
Yes, great. It would also be nice if the tags were translatable.
For Tatoeba sources, I have the same recommendation as Pfirsichbaeumchen to prefix the contributor's name by "Tatoeba", because, although we are all brilliant (and Pfirsichbaeumchen makes wonderful translations of Tankas in German...), we can't be put on the same foot as Schiller, and people would wonder who these authors are and start wasting time searching the web for books written by sysko or al_ex_an_der...
Otherwise, I agree with Scott that the less words and signs, the better.
Tatoeba is insulting me! When I click on: http://tatoeba.org/eng/tags/sho...y_Around_the_W
Tatoeba tells me to go screw myself. Something must be causing a bug.
Obviously, the one who inserted this empty tag is CK. He seems to hold the privilege to import tags, since you can't create that tag with the service interface...
Clever joke, but childish from a corpus maintainer...Corpus maintainers shouldn't abuse their privileges...
Many of my tags coincidentally contain ":" so they trigger the procedure, impeding my ability to access the sentences by these tags...
If some other clever administrator - but not as childish - could please either correct the ":" tag bug or replace all the ":" by an empty space in tags, that would be very nice...
No actually CK has not such a privilege because there's not such a feature (you can check the code of tatoeba as it's public)
After looking to the sentences containing that Scott provided in an other post of that thread, I've investigated. Here how it's happened
An empty tag appear when a sentence say it contains a tag that does not exist anymore (for those speaking sql that happens when in the table that link "sentences" and "tags" , there's a "tag_id" that point to a tag that does not exists anymore)
CK created a tag on that sentence (maybe to say it's offensive what so ever, i've no way to track this, or actually if you really want to know i've the dump of tatoeba of everyweek, so "simply" need to reload them in an empty database and check for the last dump what kind of tags this sentences had).
When merging tag because of spelling mistakes/similar spelling (Ok vs OK vs O.K. for example) I may have forgotten for some of them to also update the table that join sentences and tags, leaving some "links" to some tag_id that point now to nothing, creating by that way an empty tag
this in addition to the ":" bug created that situation.
So it's impossible that CK or any user created that on purpose because it's impossible through the interface, as you needed to be able to delete a tag without deleting the "links", which only possible by entering directly SQL command.
Case solved, i think there's one sentence which need to be deleted...
So how come that CK's created empty tag applied to only that offensive sentence from FeuDRenais and none other ???
First the tag was not created empty, because as said that's not possible.
After why this specific sentence, it's because that empty tag (well know it's not possible to see but each "empty" tag had actually different id, the id of the 'former' tag they came from), was the one with lowest id, and as the first people to use tag was mainly CK for tagging the "non-politically correct" sentences (as you can that one contains other tags from him dating from 2010, i didn't check but from my memories that was very soon after the tag feature was introduced) that "ghost" tag was certainly one related to offensive sentences.
So it wouldn't have been this sentence it may have been any other offensive sentence.
How come that tag applied to that precise offensive sentence and no other ???
it would have been applied to "fuck your mother" or "your sister is a communist" you would have made the same "why that precise one" comment.
If you really continue to deny the evidence i will dig into the dump of tatoeba and reconstruct the history of the tagging and merging process, that would be long, not interesting but if that's really needed ...
Well, whatever you say, I will find odd, to say the least, that an empty tag has been applied to one precise offensive sentence and no other. Why not to 2 sentences ? why not 3 ? why 1 among 1.7 million sentences ?...I don't believe in magic !
You don't need to reconstruct the tagging process. Jakov's script did it for you. It shows PRECISELY who tagged what and when. And jakov's script revealed that this empty tag has been applied by CK. It's a fact. And since it is impossible to apply an empty tage through the interface, he imported it as he has the privilege to do (he has imported thousands of tags)... there is no other possibility !
Now ask yourself why a tag would be imported to apply to just one sentence in a 1.7 million, and why precisely an offensive one.
It was a pervert trick with a precise agenda and you know it !
first as scottt show, there was not one , but a lot of sentences with this empty tag, and as told you the one shown was the one with the lowest tag_id
second, in which language should i repeat that, there's no hidden feature that CK can access to, if he has been able to apply so much tags that fast it's because the URL system permit the things to be scriptable , ask Jakov
the url are always /module/action/parameter1/parameter2 etc. , like /sentences/link/sentence1/sentence2, the same things apply for tags, so it's just that instead of using the interface, he made the same things that Jakov do with some of his script.
And once again, the tag was not created empty, it was made empty because that's what happen when me, I, sysko merge a tag and i forgotten to merge the "link" , so when i merge let say the tag "offensive" (id 33) and "ofensive" (id 32) there's a "link" table that say
tag_id sentence_id added_by time
32 1 CK 12/12/12
32 42 Toto 12/12/13
33 55 Ck 12/13/42
if i merge the two tags but i forget to merge also the previous table, you'll have this "tag number 33 on sentence 55" , but then tag 33 is now non-existing, but the information about when it was added are still there, so you think that the tag was added originially empty , which is not
I never saw this empty tag before, although I viewed about 100.000 sentences in English in the last years and I always use Jakov's script that would have evidenced it...
>there's no hidden feature that CK can access to, if he has been able to apply so much tags that fast it's because the URL system permit the things to be scriptable
I never said it was "hidden". I said he has the privilege to do so, whatever the method he uses. The result is the same : he has the knowledge, the skills and the habit to massively import tags that he wishes (so he can decide and define what is offensive and what is not for the world...)
As a comparison, I don't. I never imported tags. I don't know how to do it and even if I knew, I wouldn't do it, because I can't see a purpose for that.
So here is the situation:
Fact 1: a mysterious empty tag applied to an offensive sentence that read "Go screw yourself!" and a very limited number of other sentences, although nobody ever saw them, despite millions of views of sentences by thousands of contributors.
Fact 2: the mysterious empty tag, whether it has always been empty or not, was applied by CK on the offensive sentence "Go screw yourself !" by FeuDRenais, an ex-user, as evidenced by Jakov's script.
Fact 3: an empty tag could not be created through the interface so either it has not been created empty and has been subsequently emptied (how ? why? by whom?), either it has been imported, somehow...
Fact 4: coincidentally, a known bug (I detected it and informed you and everybody on the wall long ago about it) had the effect that clicking on a tag containing a ":" would redirect to a list of sentences with empty tags.
Fact 5: because I created all the tags "by Tatoeba: <pseudo>", most tags containing a ":" were created by me and that is why I knew this bug very well and reported it on the wall for everybody to see and understand.
Fact 6: since I had detected that bug and reported it long ago, I knew very well its result, which was to retrieve an EMPTY LIST of sentences (because then, no sentence contained an empty tag)
Fact7: at some point, the bug stopped to retrieve an empty list, and retrieved ONE sentence instead, precisely that offensive sentence with an empty tag, which must then have been introduced AFTER I reported the bug.
Question1: why empty tags suddenly appeared?
Question2: how were the empty tags created ?
Question3: why was an empty tag applied by CK, among 1.7 million sentences on an offensive sentence that read "Go screw yourself!", written earlier by FeuDRenais, an ex-user, although very few sentences have been "empty-tagged", and coincidentally, this sentence happens to be the first in the indice ?
Funny coincidence ? You'd better not bet...I don't think either you or Scott are that gullible !
after no your bug and that bug were different
we have the ":" bug that is well known
and the bug (caused by an error from me) that make possible to have sentences linked to non-existing (no more existing tag) if you manipulate directly the database
so when we arrived at the point that the bug 1 and 2 where both together, the current situation happened.
and anyway once again as I'm the only one to be able to make the bug 2 to appear (for scientific purpose you can tag a sentence with a useless tag, and i will make it an empty tag, and you will see that you will appear as the owner of that empty tag)
>for scientific purpose you can tag a sentence with a useless tag, and i will make it an empty tag, and you will see that you will appear as the owner of that empty tag
Precisely ! And somebody very knowledgeable about tags knew that too !
question 1: as said before (did you read me?) because i'm merging them from times to times and error human est , these time i've may have forgotten to also update the "tag -> sentence" table
question 2: you really didn't read me, i've said it 3 time
because there's 3 table
1 sentence
2 tag
3 tag->sentence
if a link in the third table point to a tag that is non existent, it will have such a tag.
question 3: as said the bug makes the first sentence with the lower empty tag to be displayed. the tag were introduced at a period at which this two users that you don't appreciate where active. After the first tag being on offensive sentences ... after I'm going to repeat myself , if i point out something funny people will say "oh look he point out something, and know what what he point out was something funny, that can't be a coincidence"
---- if you're to read one thing , at least read that ------
the empty tag have been created only by a mistake of me, so as CK does not control my mind, i'm the only one who have created empty tag because of a mistake of mine,
so question 1 : how can CK know that i will make a mistake on merging this specific tag ?
so if i'm to think like you that it's not a coincidence, then I'm the only one who could have done this, because I'm the only to be able to create empty tag and by so being able to exploit the bug
which curious tags did you merge that curiously applied just to 1 sentence in English : "Go screw yourself!"...
I'm curious to know this...
And yes, someone knowledgeable about tags and the maintenance processes they involve can perfectly create tags that they know you will merge because they're misspelled. Knowing this process, anybody can perfectly create a misspelled tag on purpose...and on an offensive sentence...coincidentally! Yeah...
as you said, certainly a spelling mistake,
After you also need to wait me to make a mistake and forget to update a table, that part is more tricky to do on purpose
and a spelling mistake happened only on a tag for 1 sentence in English and that sentence happened to be "Go screw yourself!" ?
Yeah, sure...
so when i was saying "reconstructing the tagging" process, it's not what jakov did, because jakov only can see the table of my previous post (well it's true it's not the username but the user_id, and what jakov script is simply to replace this user_id) , and as said that show nothing of what was this original "tag ID 42" (or whatever id it is)
What i was talking about was to look which tag have been applied/deleted, which is not possible to know directly as i have no log table of this, but it should be possible if looking to the log of the URL call on the server + looking in the dump which tag was present on a given sentence at a given time
moreover if that bug would have applied to a "nothing special sentence" , i doubt that Scott would have post it on the wall and would have, as he did before, report the bug to me by private message.
So for me saying this is the same as saying "oh see that's a sign of god" if i saw to someone a photo of for example a cloud making a letter, occulting the fact that i didn't show you the thousand of photos I've taken before that get nothing special.
I will see if it's easy to fix the bug, otherwise I will replace the ":"
Merci
c'est corrigé à présent
Merci. Je constate que si je clique sur le lien original ( http://tatoeba.org/fre/tags/sho...y_Around_the_W ) ça me donne tout de même une liste de phrases avec un tag vide. On peut supprimer ces tags?
En fait à présent ton lien
http://tatoeba.org/fre/tags/sho...y_Around_the_W
n'apparait plus dans l'interface, il y avait un bug dans la manière dont ceux-ci était généré.
À présent si tu vas par exemple sur la phrase http://tatoeba.org/chi/sentences/show/1805670 et que tu cliques sur le tag, tu verras bien toutes les phrases ayant ce tag, les tags ayant un ":" ne sont plus à présent des cas particuliers, et ":" peut-être utilisé sans problème.
Je parle de ces phrases qui ont un tag vide:
http://tatoeba.org/fre/sentences/show/1192983
http://tatoeba.org/fre/sentences/show/648217
http://tatoeba.org/fre/sentences/show/1030874
http://tatoeba.org/fre/sentences/show/478820
http://tatoeba.org/fre/sentences/show/649502
http://tatoeba.org/fre/sentences/show/1682192
http://tatoeba.org/fre/sentences/show/442526
http://tatoeba.org/fre/sentences/show/648423
Mais en effet, ça fonctionne très bien si on clique sur le tag. Merci d'avoir résolu le problème.
ok c'est résolu aussi, pour "comment" les tags vides apparaissaient, il y a une explication détaillée en dessous, merci de m'avoir fourni directement les liens vers des phrases contenant ce problème.
Merci !
The quantity of energy that some people can waste in order to be obnoxious to others, on such collaborative projects, never stops to astound me!
Nunca me lo habría esperado de Tatoeba.
http://tatoeba.org/spa/sentences/show/1806016
explanation: all tags containing ":" do not work and equate to an empty tag. Somebody noticed this and created (I don't know how...) an empty tage on this sentence http://tatoeba.org/fre/sentences/show/513070 as you can see on the right column, in order to redirect it there. Clever !
hola que emocion tanto idioma
Bienvenue !
I'm receiving scam letters from Mariam 55.
Alors, l'hotel de ville....il est assez________ici,vous allez
devoir marcher...
i noticed i received a spam message from this user a few days ago: http://tatoeba.org/ita/user/profile/victoriababy
Private mesanje Nigerian scam
Mensjae privado Timo nigeriano
http://tatoeba.org/spa/user/profile/mariam55
Hace unos minutos encontre este programa por mediacion del programa VOA Learn English Special y me parece fantastico ya que puedo repetir las veces que desee y a la vez tener la traduccion en mi Idioma, Gracias los felicito y agradezco la ayuda que nos proporcionan. para aprender Ingles. gracias nuevamente :=)
¡Hola, Mirna! ¡Bienvenida al sitio!