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Wall (6,756 threads)

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Before asking a question, make sure to read the FAQ.

We aim to maintain a healthy atmosphere for civilized discussions. Please read our rules against bad behavior.

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mraz mraz 29 days ago March 1, 2023 at 6:53:24 PM UTC link Permalink

Pls>>

#3245822

sharptoothed sharptoothed February 26, 2023 February 26, 2023 at 7:33:14 AM UTC link Permalink

✹✹ Stats & Graphs ✹✹

Tatoeba Stats, Graphs & Charts have been updated:
https://tatoeba.j-langtools.com/allstats/

Aiji Aiji February 26, 2023 February 26, 2023 at 12:08:49 AM UTC link Permalink

Je me suis rendu compte que ces derniers mois, je ne recevais plus les mails de notification de Tatoeba. J'ai corrigé le problème et ça devrait refonctionner, mais je m'excuse auprès de tous ceux que j'ai ignorés sans le vouloir. :)

PS : Le problème n'était pas lié à Tatoeba

deniko deniko February 23, 2023 February 23, 2023 at 12:22:32 PM UTC link Permalink

Is there a way to mass-tag sentences?

For example, assuming my last 40 sentences were about chess and I want them to be tagged as such, is there a faster way to do it comparing to clicking on each one individually and typing/pasting the tag into the tag field?

I've done that one by one for now, just wonder if there's a better way to do it.

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CK CK February 23, 2023, edited February 23, 2023 February 23, 2023 at 12:37:17 PM UTC, edited February 23, 2023 at 12:40:35 PM UTC link Permalink

There is a github issue about this.

https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/785

Briefly, the answer is no.
This has been an issue since 2015.

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deniko deniko February 23, 2023 February 23, 2023 at 9:15:11 PM UTC link Permalink

Thank you!

hecko hecko February 24, 2023 February 24, 2023 at 11:42:07 AM UTC link Permalink

it's in principle possible to do it using an external script, but from the little research i've done it seems to be more complicated than usual (the sentence page must first be loaded to extract a token to use in the request)

i can try coding it up in python if desired (javascript would probably be best but curly braces scare me)

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deniko deniko February 24, 2023 February 24, 2023 at 12:18:50 PM UTC link Permalink

I've never thought of an external script. That's an interesting idea.

So are you thinking something like a Chrome plugin?

Also, how do you imagine it from the user interface point of view?

My first thought was modifying the search page. So, for example, you have some search results, it's a list of 20 sentences (and translations). I add a checkbox, "Add tag" to all of the main sentences (maybe to the translations as well), and I add an entry field where you can actually enter the tag. Then press a new button "Apply", and it applies the tag to the selected sentences only.

Do you think something like this is achievable with an external script? Or did you see it very differently?

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hecko hecko February 24, 2023 February 24, 2023 at 12:23:30 PM UTC link Permalink

a browser plugin is a good idea for usability, but idk if i could get myself to learn the api for that *on top of* figuring out javascript

i was thinking about making it a bookmarklet, which is a bookmark with javascript in it
not sure about the gui but your idea seems decent and maybe not super hard to implement

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deniko deniko February 24, 2023 February 24, 2023 at 5:47:11 PM UTC link Permalink

Sounds cool! If you do do it one day, please let me know, I'd be happy to use your script.

Nuel Nuel February 20, 2023 February 20, 2023 at 10:18:59 AM UTC link Permalink

Is this a place of learning or of contribution only?

I thought that here I could improve my knowledge of English or any other language, testing myself, creating sentences that, if I make mistakes, native speakers could help me improve. Most people here add as most sentences as possible, especially in their own native languages, to help the project to increasingly exapand, but in doing so I seem to learn anything.

I can find sentences everywhere on the Internet.

I've been asked several times to contribute by adding solely Italian sentences.
Well, Italian is my own native language, I don't need to learn it.
I added English sentences only and someone asked me to, at least, translate them into Italian and I did and now I'm being asked to only translate English sentences that already exist because I might make mistakes in English.....and that's not really how I can help the project.

Well, I'm willing to give my contribution but, in return, I want to improve my own skills.

Over time, I noticed that fewer people have been contributing....maybe this is a sign...of something that could get better.

I'm a little disappointed.

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Thanuir Thanuir February 20, 2023 February 20, 2023 at 11:36:19 AM UTC link Permalink

Tatoeba on ensisijaisesti tietokanta. Tatoeban lauseista on tehty useita oppimistyökaluja, kuten Ankidroid-pakkoja ja Clozemaster-sivusto.

Toisaalta lauseiden kääntäminen vieraasta kielestä on myös hyvä tapa oppia kieltä, tai ainakin huomata asioita, joita ei vielä osaa.

AlanF_US AlanF_US February 20, 2023 February 20, 2023 at 3:32:08 PM UTC link Permalink

> Is this a place of learning or of contribution only?
Both.

As far as I can tell, the requests to contribute only sentences in your native language have come from only two people, one of whom is well-known (and not favorably) for making this demand of contributors. The founder of this site has asked him to back off more than once. My own attitude toward non-native contributions, which is more widely held, is reflected on the wiki page, "Contributing in a language that is not your strongest" ( https://en.wiki.tatoeba.org/art...ow/non-native# ). Briefly: if you write sentences in a language that you do not speak at a native level, do the following so you don't create more incorrect sentences than others can fix:

- contribute only in a language that you know well
- check often to see whether others have left comments on your sentences, and fix them if necessary
- use standard language
- mark sentences with a comment or tag if you're not sure whether they're correct

From everything I can see, you are already following these guidelines, so you have nothing to worry about. If someone continues to give you a hard time, please let me know in a private message.

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ssvb ssvb February 20, 2023 February 20, 2023 at 4:13:12 PM UTC link Permalink

> mark sentences with a comment or tag if you're not sure whether they're correct

Tags can only be added by advanced contributors. And comments show up in everyone's feed, so posting a large number of comments is probably not very nice.

What happens if one just disowns the translations they are not confident about? Do native speakers pick them up?

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AlanF_US AlanF_US February 20, 2023, edited February 20, 2023 February 20, 2023 at 11:39:58 PM UTC, edited February 20, 2023 at 11:40:15 PM UTC link Permalink

> Tags can only be added by advanced contributors.

That's true, but it's not hard for someone to become an advanced contributor:
https://en.wiki.tatoeba.org/art...-contributors#

> And comments show up in everyone's feed, so posting a large number of comments is probably not very nice.

I've never heard anyone complain about the volume of comments at Tatoeba, and I can't imagine Nuel would be changing the volume significantly.

> What happens if one just disowns the translations they are not confident about?

I'm not a fan of the unadoption of sentences in any great number, since it buries the name of the owner, which is important information.

> Do native speakers pick them up?

Take a look at the 47,546 unowned sentences in English:

https://tatoeba.org/en/sentence...roved=no&user=

It's an enormous undifferentiated heap of sentences of varying quality. Some people do adopt sentences from it, but there's no inherently structured way to do it. By contrast, the number of sentences tagged "@needs native check" is much more manageable, and I review the English sentences with this tag periodically.

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ssvb ssvb February 21, 2023 February 21, 2023 at 7:09:26 AM UTC link Permalink

> it's not hard for someone to become an advanced contributor

At my current rate, I'm one or two months away from this milestone. But I'm not talking about myself. Imagine a bunch of language learners joining tatoeba, who are complete beginners. Each of them would need to submit 1000 horribly broken sentences before unlocking the "@needs native check" feature.

> I've never heard anyone complain about the volume of comments at Tatoeba

I suspect that a lot of people (myself included) are just holding back because they think that it isn't right to spam without a really good reason. So whenever I'm almost certain that my English sentence is fine, I won't ask for a confirmation. Too bad that "almost" is not good enough.

> https://tatoeba.org/en/sentence...roved=no&user=

> It's an enormous undifferentiated heap of sentences of varying quality. Some people do adopt sentences from it, but there's no inherently structured way to do it.

If native English speakers could cherry pick and adopt correct sentences with a lot of existing translations into other languages from this heap, then this would be really great.

Aiji Aiji February 21, 2023 February 21, 2023 at 2:56:04 AM UTC link Permalink

> What happens if one just disowns the translations they are not confident about? Do native speakers pick them up?

It depends on people and the language in question. For example, I sometimes adopt sentences (actually translations) that contributors whose French is not their native language contribute. For some of them, I am confident that their translation is likely correct because we have been doing that for quite a while. For others, I need to spend more time checking their sentences and I feel it more like a burden, to be honest (I'm one of those who proofread / adopted orphan French sentences of the Tanaka corpus, so I understand very well why native English speakers wouldn't want to check the current orphan sentences).

The key here is that the contributors I am mentioning add translations, often of their own original sentences. These translations are easy, or at least easy enough compare to their French fluency. So I feel happy to check and adopt their sentences. There is a sense of community, of "those users are also helping the French corpus". However, when complex sentences are un-adopted, I feel a bit upset because I wonder why someone would contribute something complicated that I, or someone else, would have to check, and, to be honest, correct most of the time.

Of course, as Alan mentioned, some people also use the tag @needs native check (nnc). Some native users then check their sentence and mark it with the OK tag, or the green review (this also depends on people).

In short, I think that if people respect 1) the guidelines Alan mentioned, and 2) the work of other people, most of us will be happy. (By 2), I mean not asking someone to proofread hundreds of sentences that were created with no confidence.)

Nuel Nuel February 20, 2023 February 20, 2023 at 6:29:03 PM UTC link Permalink

I've just read your reply and I feel more relieved now.

Thanks, Alan.

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AlanF_US AlanF_US February 20, 2023 February 20, 2023 at 11:42:52 PM UTC link Permalink

You're welcome.

Cangarejo Cangarejo February 20, 2023, edited February 20, 2023 February 20, 2023 at 10:24:38 PM UTC, edited February 20, 2023 at 10:51:28 PM UTC link Permalink

The search page allows filtering sentences to only show those written by native speakers. Maybe it could be useful for corpus maintainers to be able to see only those sentences written by non-native speakers as well.

I’m not asking for anything. I’m just thinking out loud.

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Aiji Aiji February 21, 2023 February 21, 2023 at 2:58:50 AM UTC link Permalink

> Maybe it could be useful for corpus maintainers to be able to see only those sentences written by non-native speakers as well.

Would you use it to find sentences to proofread, or something else?

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Cangarejo Cangarejo February 21, 2023, edited February 24, 2023 February 21, 2023 at 12:06:57 PM UTC, edited February 24, 2023 at 12:54:33 PM UTC link Permalink

I gave up trying to proofread sentences, so I wouldn’t be using it. I used to proofread random Portuguese sentences, but it’s practically impossible to find sentences that need correcting, so I stopped doing that. Not to mention that most sentences are written in Brazillian Portuguese while I speak European Portuguese, so it’s hard for me to even decide if sentences are written the most natural way possible. Also, whenever I did leave a message, it kind of felt like the sentences were already well enough written and that users were just becoming discouraged.

Cabo Cabo February 21, 2023 February 21, 2023 at 7:16:41 PM UTC link Permalink

"Is this a place of learning or of contribution only?"
The features the site has are mainly for helping the contribution.
You can use it for learning, but you soon find out that those features are not enough to call this site a language learning site.

"Well, I'm willing to give my contribution but, in return, I want to improve my own skills."
You cannot just ask to be paid back. It's a free site, where you can help, and also you can have the list of sentences, too. But those only raw data if you don't know how to sort them.

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Nuel Nuel February 21, 2023 February 21, 2023 at 8:50:36 PM UTC link Permalink

I don't agree at all.

If someone corrects my mistakes, it helps me to improve my knowledge of that language.

And I can do the same for them.

However, I don't want to stir up controversy; you expressed your opinion and I expressed mine.

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Cabo Cabo February 21, 2023, edited February 21, 2023 February 21, 2023 at 9:02:50 PM UTC, edited February 21, 2023 at 9:08:49 PM UTC link Permalink

Maybe you misunderstood me.
For sure you can learn, I wrote it:
"You can use it for LEARNING, but you soon find out that those FEATURES are NOT ENOUGH to CALL this site a LANGUAGE LEARNING SITE."

The emphasis is not on the learning, but the contributing.

And what more: I only answered your question but you come with:
"I don't agree at all."

It is like: "I'm not sure if it is okay." "It's okay I think, but it would be great..." "No, I disagree with you, it's not only okay, I KNOW it's great!" "Why do you ask then?"

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Nuel Nuel February 21, 2023 February 21, 2023 at 9:11:42 PM UTC link Permalink

I think that the two things can co-exist: contributing and learning. If I were only asked to contribute, I have to tell the truth, I would no longer be here.

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Cabo Cabo February 22, 2023 February 22, 2023 at 6:40:37 AM UTC link Permalink

Nobody asks to do the contributing work, and nobody pays you in return.
It's free of choice.

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Nuel Nuel February 22, 2023 February 22, 2023 at 6:53:17 AM UTC link Permalink

I see your point.

If this is the case, it only remains for me to FREELY choose whether or not to continue to give my contribution.

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Cabo Cabo February 22, 2023 February 22, 2023 at 7:07:39 AM UTC link Permalink

Not remains, always been this way, but you are here, so you found something to stay. Cheers.

small_snow small_snow February 22, 2023, edited February 22, 2023 February 22, 2023 at 2:06:08 AM UTC, edited February 22, 2023 at 8:41:33 AM UTC link Permalink

日本語に興味のある皆さまへ (To Everyone interested in the Japanese language)

Tatoebaプロジェクトとは直接関係がないのですが、すごくいいビデオだと思ったので、ご紹介させてください。こちら↓↓です。

https://youtu.be/nyYctyuN0R4

日本の名字ランキング(名字由来net: https://myoji-yurai.net/prefectureRanking.htm ) に基づいて作られた、"Top 100 Japanese Last Names — Family Names — Surnames" ビデオです。

なぜこんなビデオを...と思われる方はこちらをご覧ください😊
https://tatoeba.org/ja/sentence...omment-1411092

このビデオの中には、84個の漢字が含まれています。そのうち、小学校で習う漢字がなんと67個!ゲーム感覚で、何個読めるかやってみるのも楽しいと思います!興味のある方は、是非チャレンジしてみてください!

なお、このビデオの紹介において、作成者のCKさんの許可はいただきましたが、CKさんご本人は「自分のプロジェクトなので、自らここで紹介することはしない」とおっしゃっていました。私が紹介したかったので紹介しました。営利目的ではありません。

Although I received permission from the creator, CK, to introduce this video, he
said that he wouldn't introduce the video here because it's his own project. I wanted to introduce it because I wanted to do it. Not for profit. Thank you.
P.S. If this is against our rules, please let me know. I'll delete this immediately.

----
【ビデオで使われている漢字の内訳】※漢字の横の()内は、出現回数です。
1年生で習う漢字は22個:
田(22),山(10),村(7),本(7),中(6),木(6),小(5),川(5),上(4),口(3),石(3),下(2),森(2),大(2),林(2),金(1),三(1),子(1),水(1),青(1),千(1),竹(1)

2年生で習う漢字は20個:
野(9),原(4),高(3),谷(2),内(2),遠(1),丸(1),岩(1),近(1),後(1),工(1),今(1),市(1),新(1),西(1),前(1),太(1),地(1),池(1),長(1)

3年生で習う漢字は12個:
宮(2),橋(2),島(2),安(1),横(1),坂(1),酒(1),部(1),平(1),葉(1),和(1),福(1)

4年生で習う漢字は8個:
井(7),松(4),佐(3),崎(3),岡(2),加(1),清(1),辺(1)

5年生で習う漢字は5個:
河(1),久(1),増(1),武(1),保(1)

6年生で習う漢字は0個:

中学生以上で習う漢字は17個:
藤(14),阿(1),伊(1),浦(1),菊(1),吉(1),斎(1),柴(1),杉(1),菅(1),斉(1),渡(1),尾(1),鈴(1),塚(1),々(1)

----

CK CK February 21, 2023 February 21, 2023 at 1:24:09 AM UTC link Permalink

🍎 These have been updated using last Saturday's exported data.

Bilingual Sentence Pairs
http://www.manythings.org/bilingual/

Tab-delimited Bilingual Sentence Pairs
http://www.manythings.org/anki/

CK CK February 19, 2023 February 19, 2023 at 11:29:08 PM UTC link Permalink

🍎 Stats - 2023-02-18 - Native Speakers with Contributions

http://tatoeba.ueuo.com//stats-2023-02-18.html

Find sentences by native speakers of the languages you are studying and get links to their sentences.



There is a lot of data in the above table, so if your device can't display it, you can try this other page.

http://bit.ly/nativespeakers
Updated: 2023-01-21

It contains a bit older data and is presorted to list by language, then by the native speaker of each language with the most native-speaker sentences.

Nuel Nuel February 16, 2023 February 16, 2023 at 10:47:30 AM UTC link Permalink

I don't know how it works here, but if anyone studying Italian needs to ask something about the language, I'm there; I won't bite, I promise :)

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Cangarejo Cangarejo February 16, 2023 February 16, 2023 at 1:36:12 PM UTC link Permalink

Maybe you should also leave a similar comment on your profile page.

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Nuel Nuel February 16, 2023 February 16, 2023 at 2:25:40 PM UTC link Permalink

Thank you for your suggestion, Cangarejo:)

maaster maaster February 17, 2023, edited February 17, 2023 February 17, 2023 at 8:08:02 AM UTC, edited February 17, 2023 at 8:12:28 AM UTC link Permalink

It would be fine if you added Italian translations to your English sentences at the "same" time. I don't read sentences but only one time. It would be helpful for me at least.

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Nuel Nuel February 17, 2023 February 17, 2023 at 8:34:14 AM UTC link Permalink

Hi Maaster

I'm glad to be able to help you with my Italian translations.

It will be done:)

Polgar1 Polgar1 February 15, 2023 February 15, 2023 at 1:21:00 PM UTC link Permalink

I noticed an awkward situation: https://tatoeba.org/hu/sentences/show/4045980 I was typing with little concentration and mixed up "pen" and "pencil" in my head. However, the sentence for "pen" already existed, hence I linked a sentence that I had no knowledge of. Normally, I would be able to just edit the sentence but since I hit a sentence which isn't mine, I can't do that.

Is there a way to detach it? I would hope this should be doable without escalating the permissions.

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brauchinet brauchinet February 15, 2023, edited February 15, 2023 February 15, 2023 at 2:10:59 PM UTC, edited February 15, 2023 at 2:12:31 PM UTC link Permalink

I think there is a general imbalance in what ordinary contributors can do:
They can add and modify their own sentence but cannot delete it.
They can create links by adding translations but cannot undo their own links afterwards.
Are these limitations really necessary?
In your case, you should be able to cut the link to the Polish sentence since it was you who created it.

Sure, a user needs a bit of background knowledge to figure that out.

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eses eses February 16, 2023, edited February 16, 2023 February 16, 2023 at 5:05:14 AM UTC, edited February 16, 2023 at 9:10:57 AM UTC link Permalink

This is just one of the reasons that keep people from continuing to use the software.

There are also other reasons.

On the Turkish interface of the software, in the sentence addition section, there is an expression that is not very suitable for people's beliefs.

Looking at a few sentences in Turkish, I noticed an expression containing swearing.

https://tatoeba.org/tr/sentence...Bitirim?page=3

His user name is: Bitirim

If you look at the sentences of the user, you will notice that they contain heavy insults, slang and swearing. Furthermore, the sentences he wrote are not the equivalent of the sentence in another language.

I reported this situation to someone who is said to be an admin, but there was no response.

For these reasons, I started to develop a new translation software.

https://kelimeler.vercel.app

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AlanF_US AlanF_US February 16, 2023, edited February 16, 2023 February 16, 2023 at 2:21:20 PM UTC, edited February 16, 2023 at 11:35:57 PM UTC link Permalink

> I reported this situation to someone who is said to be an admin, but there was no response.

Reporting the situation privately to an admin (or a corpus maintainer) is the right thing to do. It gives them time to gather the facts. Whether someone is an admin or corpus maintainer is not a matter of rumor; you can determine this by looking at their profile. How long ago did you send the message? If you expect a response within a few hours, there's a good chance that you are going to be disappointed.

> On the Turkish interface of the software, in the sentence addition section, there is an expression that is not very suitable for people's beliefs.

Sorry, this is just not enough information to even tell us what you're talking about. What is the "sentence addition section", and what is the expression? I can understand your not wanting to mention it on the Wall, but I would think it would be relevant in a private message.

> If you look at the sentences of the user, you will notice..

Actually, all I notice is a lot of sentences in a language I don't speak. And even if I did speak it, I wouldn't necessarily know which sentences you're talking about. If you're not going to be more explicit (no pun intended) about the sentences you find objectionable, you make it harder for anyone to act on them.

> that they contain heavy insults, slang and swearing.

That does not make them unique at Tatoeba.

> For these reasons, I started to develop a new translation software.

Great! Developing your own project in accordance with your own vision is commendable. I wish you luck.

Shishir Shishir February 16, 2023, edited February 16, 2023 February 16, 2023 at 5:25:32 PM UTC, edited February 16, 2023 at 6:21:22 PM UTC link Permalink

I received your message and of course you didn't get an answer. I am an admin here but this is a hobby. I'm not 24/7 here, which means that if you send me a message at 7 a.m. you shouldn't expect me to answer the same day before I even got out of work.

I checked this user's sentences and many are fine, it's not like he had only added swearwords and offensives sentences. So you'll have to be more precise about which ones you consider offensive.

maaster maaster February 17, 2023 February 17, 2023 at 8:10:18 AM UTC link Permalink

I unlinked them.