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Pinnwand (5000 Diskussionen)

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Ricardo14
vor 5 Stunden
Happy birthday, Alex Marcelo!
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alexmarcelo
vor 2 Stunden
Obrigado por lembrar, Ricardo!
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CarpeLanam
vor 40 Minuten
Tibi diem natalem felicem!
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alexmarcelo
vor 6 Minuten
Gratias tibi ago, carissima soci@rum! :-)
Ricardo14
vor 2 Tagen
Happy birthday, Shishir! (Rocío)
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marafon
vor 2 Tagen
¡Feliz cumpleaños, Rocío!
Pfirsichbaeumchen
vor 23 Stunden
Herzlichen Glückwunsch zum Geburtstag, Rocío!
Guybrush88
vor 11 Stunden
Happy birthday!
alexmarcelo
vor 2 Stunden
Feliz aniversário!
CK
CK
vor 5 Tagen
Kabyle and Berber combined now have more audio files than French, which is at number 5 on the list (see the right side of the page)

https://tatoeba.org/eng/audio/index

I'm not 100% certain, but if I remember correctly the person who recorded all but 10 of the Berber audio files said they were all Kabyle.



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soliloquist
vor 4 Tagen
What's the point of separating Berber and Kabyle, if most of the Berber sentences are also Kabyle?

Algeria was under Ottoman rule for centuries, but in Turkish, we don't even have a word for Kabyle. We simply use Berber(Berberice).

I mean no offense, I'm just curious.
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Aiji
vor 4 Tagen
You may want to refer to that post https://tatoeba.org/fra/wall/show_message/29440 for a start.
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soliloquist
vor 3 Tagen
Thanks.

So, Berber is an umbrella term for a group of closely related languages (or dialects?), not a specific and distinct language.

If that's the case, I think it's better to let them have their own corpuses, just like some mutually intelligible languages (Bosnian, Serbian and Croatian) of former Yugoslavia. However, in this case, the existence of a separate Berber corpus becomes questionable.

Possibly the debate also has some underlying political dimensions that are not easy to resolve.
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Amastan
vor 3 Tagen
Most Berber language activists believe in the unity of the Berber language that they call "Tamazight." The North African governments that recognize Berber (Tamazight) as an official language (Morocco and Algeria) refer to the language as Tamazight (Berber) and don't talk about promoting "Kabyle" or "Shawi" or "Mozabite" or "Tuareg" or "Riffian" separately. Mouloud Mammeri, the father of the Berber-language revival (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouloud_Mammeri) talked about the Berber language, studied its various dialects (mainly poetry of the Zenata dialect of the Timimoun region, Adrar, southern Algeria; Tuareg dialect; Kabyle dialect).

And as I said, one cannot deny the undeniable: there is mutual intelligibility between all the dialects spoken (at least) from southern Tunisia in the east to northern Morocco in the west of North Africa, and this includes roughly southern Tunisian dialects, Shawi, Tasahlit, Kabyle, the Blida Atlas dialect, the Chenoua dialect, the Beni Snous dialect (area of Tlemcen, western Algeria), Riffian (northern Morocco) + many northern Saharan dialects (dialect of Ouargla, Mozabite [of the Ghardaia area], Boussemghoun, Asla, the dialects of the Bechar area and the Zenata dialect spoken in the oases of Timimoun). There is mutual intelligibility between all these dialects and this language continuum can't be denied by any linguist.

Now and because some people want some ready solutions for technical reasons, they have decided to consider their dialects as "separate languages." I am not one of those people. Berber (or Tamazight as its speakers prefer to call it) still doesn't have an ISO code of its own. Morocco created the code "zgh" but it's only for what is commonly referred to as "Standard Moroccan Berber" in Morocco

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S...oroccan_Berber

But with the creation of the Algerian Academy of the Amazigh Language (it has been created this year), one of the first things the members of this academy would do is the request for an ISO code for the Amazigh language (at least an Algerian Amazigh language) and this would be the suitable code for my sentences and the sentences of my fellow Algerian Amazigh speakers, I think. So we better wait for that rather than just taking more than 100k sentences and attributing them to a regional dialect that's just part of a much bigger linguistic continuum in the vastness of North Africa.

Of course, there are political dimensions to this issue, too. Some people are supporting a radical separatist movement that's more or less openly hostile to the idea of pan-Amazighism and openly questions the unity of the Amazigh language. I am not here to do politics but I prefer not to have anything to do whether directly or indirectly with this linguistic and political separatist problem that I openly and directly oppose.

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soliloquist
vor 3 Tagen
Thank you for your detailed explanation.
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Amastan
vor 5 Stunden
You're welcome.

I'd love to add the following:

Algeria always claims that the government recognized Tamazight (Berber) as an official language to reinforce national unity and promote cohesion among the Algerian people. There is no interest in promoting regional dialects into separate regional languages at a moment when there is still mutual intelligibility among North African Amazigh speakers.

We are just beginning to discover our origins, our native dialects and how wonderfully close they are to each other and we are doing this through cultural and linguistic exchange. We are not building walls between us as our fiercest opponents (Amazigh-language haters and some religious extremists and ideologues want).

Back in the 1970's and up until the 1990's (and even today) it was the fiercest enemies of Amazigh identity and language that used to claim that Amazighs don't speak the same language, therefore, promoting such a set of "separate languages" is completely pointless. Today we have some activists (and young and inexperienced youth who know very little about the history of the Amazigh language movement) that are claiming this. Yet these activists don't represent the majority of the Amazigh-language cultural movement who massively adhere to the deep unity of the Amazigh language. Anyway, the unity of the northern dialects is totally unquestionable and only dishonest political liars would continue to try to fool online.

As the Amazigh saying from Kabylie goes: Yiwen n wass kan ay iqeḍḍu ukeddab (A liar can only shop and fool people once).
samir_t
vor 3 Tagen - vor 3 Tagen
There is no intelligibility between the Berber languages. In any case, if we take for example the two most spoken languages, the kabyle in Algeria, and the shilha in Morocco, they are perhaps more different than is the German of the Dutch or the Italian of Spanish. A Kabyle does not understand a single word of a shilha song and vice versa, whatever they say. The Kabyle peoples of the north never understand the Berbers of southern in Algeria, the Touaregs, shilha Moroccoin do not understand with the Riffian of northern Morocco.
Those who speak of a unique Amazigh language are only in the dream, since nothing unites them except an old vocabulary and similarities of grammar here and there. We saw them modify the rules of kabyle language (on Berber - Tatoeba) to adapt it with other Berber languages but it does not work. Kabyle is a language in itself. Afterwards, the political discourse or the aspirations of each other are something else.
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Amastan
vor 3 Tagen
samir_t

You should read my message again and perhaps even review your North African geography. I didn't mention Tashelhit in my previous message when I talked about the language continuum that spreads -from east to west- from southern Tunisia to northern Morocco.

***There is no intelligibility between the Berber languages.***

I find this insane. You are denying a fact that millions of Algerians and Moroccans know is true.

Only a liar or a politician (almost a synonym of the previous word) would stubbornly deny facts (call it science or witchcraft, it's up to you), but here is a fact that the language separatists will continue to deny even if it's fact (a synonym of "truth"):

Oh, but wait a minute: In politics, whenever fact/truth doesn't serve the interests of the politician, it's suddenly denied. But let's continue:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPjJCaB_s3o&t=600s

This is Mohamed Zerdoumi's TV 4 show called "Tafat n Ussirem". For those who don't know, TV 4 is an Algerian Amazigh-speaking public channel. Mohamed Zerdoumi, the host, speaks an Amazigh dialect called Shawi, and his two guests speak the Kabyle Amazigh dialect. They speak the same language and understand each other. And needless to say that their audience, composed of millions of Algerian Amazigh speakers (including myself, my wife, and my mother) understand them when they talk.

This is another episode of Zerdoumi's show where there are only Shawi-speaking guests:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v...X_Fud0&t=1500s

I regularly watch this program with my wife (a Kabyle speaker) and my mother (a Kabyle monolingual person) and we understand everything they say.

And now only a dishonest person would deny that they don't understand this Amazigh speaker from Chlef, an area located something like 400 kilometers west of Kabylie:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dn4hWF-8OY0&t=20s

So my advice is that you don't spread false information about facts. If you want to promote your linguistic separatism do it in silence and in your own circles and let others continue with their enormous enterprises that they have started generations before your movement was born and would continue for generations after you are gone.














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samir_t
vor 3 Tagen - vor 3 Tagen
You may not have talked about Tachelhit, but for me I can not talk about Berber languages without thinking about tashelhit that has the greatest number of speakers in North Africa. The borders between Algeria and Morocco can not deny historical realities, I do not content myself with a certain linguistic proximity of Kabyle with Chaoui language or chenwa one, which are separated geographically only recently, one to the east and the other to the west. If governments do not talk about preferring a "variety" but only tamazight in general, it is of course political. On the one hand to leave Berber languages behind and on the other to ignore any indentary reality in these countries. You probably know that Ouyahia said that we first have to invent a unifying language before generalizing the famous Tamazight, that says a lot.
You know our master to all Mouloud Mammeri who does his grammar, he made it clear that it was the "Kabyle dialect" in the cover of the book, because he knew that huge differences exist with other Berber languages..
I have nothing against my Berber cousins, I do not militate in any political movement, but a scientific reality must be recognized and defended. I am an author, but I can not say that I write in Tamazight when I know that only the Kabyle people will read what I write. I will not lie to myself, and I will not take my dreams of an Amazigh linguistic unity for a reality.

Fraternally.
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Amastan
vor 4 Stunden
@samir_t

What you have written here is interesting and I would like to analyze it bit by bit:

You said: "You may not have talked about Tachelhit, but for me I can not talk about Berber languages without thinking about tashelhit"

The problem here is the following: when people are having a political argument, they would only give the most extreme examples to justify their extremist views. Whenever someone wants to question the unity of the Amazigh language, they would directly point to the Tuareg dialect which is, actually, one of the most difficult dialects to understand for the speakers of Northern Amazigh dialects. I honestly find this irrelevant. And regarding Tashelhit: although it's the Amazigh dialect that has the biggest number of speakers in North Africa, I already mentioned the fact that many, many Tashelhit speakers understand the Kabyle dialect and listen to the greatest Kabyle singers. Therefore, even if we don't understand their dialect, there is still a possibility that some day, we, as a big Amazigh-speaking community of North Africa, would develop a unified dialect, maybe based on Kabyle and the Algerian Zenata dialects, that all the speakers of all the dialects would understand, and this is already in the making. You can see it through the dozens of hours of TV shows where Shawis from the Aures are hosted by Kabyle TV hosts and vice versa.

I find this insistence upon a "solution-here-and-now" to be preposterous. People need to work, produce, exchange and discuss and that would need years, if not decades to become a reality. Regional dialects would never disappear while North Africans would have a standard language they would use for standard communication and science.

You also said: "I do not content myself with a certain linguistic proximity of Kabyle with Chaoui language or chenwa one which are separated geographically only recently,"

Then you should also reject the differences between the dialect of your own little tiny minuscule village and my own little minuscule village as well, I think. Some sub-dialects in the Chenoua region are closer to the Bejaia Kabyle than the Tizi-Ouzou Kabyle that people speak in my own little tiny microscopic village. One of the things I hate and despise in many people from our area is their utter contempt that we are more and more developing to anything that's Amazigh but outside of our area. This is a primitive form of contempt that translates our cultural regression in the latter years and it's within the framework of that contempt that I place this separatist and racist movement that's defending this so-called "language."

You said: "to ignore any indentary reality in these countries."

Your identity (which is also mine as long as it is Algerian and Amazigh) isn't being ignored. Lots of things still need to be done, but I consider the recognition of the Amazigh language as an official language in Algeria, the creation of an Algerian Academy of the Amazigh language and the recognition of the Amazigh traditional year (Yennayer) as an official holiday in modern Algeria are all clear and unambiguous signs that our identity and culture are being recognized just as they deserve to be recognized. Soon the Academy will start producing resources that even your companions who support this so-called language would begin to use, and you know why? It's because they produce nothing. Linguistics-wise, they are all talk and no action, just as those Amazigh-language haters that want us to write the Amazigh language in the Arabic script but they never did any scientific research or language planning efforts to make this possible.

You said: "You probably know that Ouyahia said that we first have to invent a unifying language before generalizing the famous Tamazight,"

There is nothing to be invented. Ouyahia is a politician and all politicians "invent" things. Specialists aren't talking about "inventions." They are talking about exchange and massive production (including movies, TV shows, plays, etc.) that would lead the most spoken dialects to progressively converge towards a unified language. How this language would be, I'm not sure. I'm not an oracle. However, things need time, and let's just work and wait and hope for the best. We shouldn't insist on a "solution-here-and-now" because this would lead us nowhere.

You said: "You know our master to all Mouloud Mammeri who does his grammar,"

He wrote the grammar to teach it to his students who were Kabyles. I was an English teacher myself. If I were in the USA, then I would probably teach my students American English. If I were in the UK, then I would teach them British English. There is nothing strange about that. Some day, and why now, the Kabyle dialect could become the basis of this standard language and there is nothing wrong with that, but we still consider our language as one, and Mammeri too used to talk about *an Amazigh language* and *a Kabyle dialect/Shawi dialect/Riffian dialect, etc.

Another particularity of the separatist movement of Kabylie is the usurpation of Kabylie's Amazigh cultural figures and symbols. Figures like Mammeri and Matoub (may they rest in peace) belong to all Kabyles, including those who are against the racist separatist movement. They also belong to all Algerians (Mammeri's 100th anniversary was recently celebrated for a whole year in Algeria, Matoub's assassination was also celebrated by local official authorities), and needless to say that they belong to all of North Africa's Amazigh speakers: both of them are celebrated figures in Morocco, Algeria, and Libya. So the separatist movement shouldn't claim itself as the sole and legitimate representative of these two cultural figures. Usually, it's the Islamist radical groups and far-right groups that would claim universal symbols as solely and exclusively theirs. As much as God is everyone's god, then even Mammeri and Matoub are everyone's Amazigh symbols. Please don't bend Mammeri's views and writings and Matoub's verses in such a way as to legitimize your extravagant separatist and racist claims.

You said: "I do not militate in any political movement, but a scientific reality must be recognized and defended."

I think that even if one doesn't belong to a specific political party or political movement, if they are supporting linguistic separatism, that's bad and even dangerous enough.

You said: "I am an author, but I can not say that I write in Tamazight when I know that only the Kabyle people will read what I write."

I write in my local dialect and consider it Tamazight just as everybody else does, and Kabyle is understood even in Morocco. We shouldn't start to lose our minds after more than 50 years of struggling.

AmarMecheri
vor 3 Tagen - vor 2 Tagen
D'abord... Merci d'avoir posé des questions pertinentes concernant le couple Kabyle/Berbère.

First ... Thank you for asking relevant questions about the Kabyle / Berber couple.

En ne voulant pas offenser, vous le faites sans le savoir. Vous devriez préférer l'histoire (non officielle, celle des historiens), ce serait mieux.
Ce que vous appelez domination ottomane (/ turque) s'est justement heurtée à la seule composante kabyle (et chaouïe).

By not wanting to offend, you do it without knowing it. You should prefer history (unofficial, that of historians), it would be better.
What you call Ottoman (/Turkish) domination has come up against the only Kabyle component (and chaouïe).

Les Ottomans ont toujours délibérément ignoré la dimension kabyle, alors qu'ils ont dû composer  avec ceux qui leur ont résisté.
Les Français, tout en faisant pareil, ont quand même dépêché des Pères Blancs et des historiens pour creuser la question.
Si on s'en tenait plutôt à l'aspect linguistique? Et de partage convivial?
Ce serait mieux, je crois.

 The Ottomans have always deliberately ignored the Kabyle dimension, whereas they had to "compose" with those who resisted to them. The French, while doing the same, have nevertheless sent the "Pères Blancs" and historians to dig the question and issue.
Why not sticking to the linguistic aspect? And friendly sharing?
It would be better, I think.

Par ailleurs, sur la même page, on peut lire les propos sidérants d'un partisan du pan-berbère qui qualifie les variantes du berbère de simples dialectes, alors que la production la plus importante en berbère, tous secteurs confondus, est celle des kabyles, dont celle du plus kabyle d'entre eux: l'initiateur anthropologue-linguiste Mouloud Mammeri "qu'il cite".

 Moreover, on the same page, one can read the astonishing remarks of a pan-Berber partisan who qualifies the Berber variants of simple dialects, while the most important production in Berber, all sectors, is that of the Kabyles , including that of the most Kabyle of them: the anthropologist-linguist initiator Mouloud Mammeri whom "he quotes".

Je crois qu'il serait judicieux de poser la question aux Kabyles, qui pourraient vous expliquer le pourquoi de la séparation par les tergiversations des autorités concernant la transcription (en caractères arabes, tifinagh ou latins?).
Où est donc cette académie? 
Nous, Kabyles, nous voulons aller de l'avant.
Et ça se voit sur Tatoeba.
C'est tout.
Salutations
NB: Je réponds ici à titre personnel et mes propos n'engagent que ma personne.

I think it would be wise to ask the Kabyles, who could explain the reasons for the separation by procrastination of the authorities concerning the transcription (in Arabic, Tifinagh or Latin characters?).
Where is this academy?
We, Kabyles, want to move forward.
And it is obviously showed on Tatoeba.
That's all.
Greetings
NB: I answer here as an individual and my remarks commit only my person.
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Amastan
vor 3 Tagen
If you are referring to me as the person who is offending you, then I don't see how I have offended you. I am defending my points here and if I claim that I am actively opposed to the separatist movement, then this normally shouldn't be considered as an offence. I am just talking about my personal position and I suppose I am free to express it. Besides, I'd better tell let you know what I think rather than we keep these kind of things hidden. I still consider this as a linguistic debate. I mentioned that it was linked to politics because it's a fact, too. I see that you would continue to defend your views with the exact same arguments to the end. I consider this as ideology and not science. But this is just my opinion. I am not at all offended by your scientific claims and even myths (on the contrary, I'm happy to see that people like you have developed a mythology). Just let other people continue to believe in what they want. Let every one go their separate way. It's as simple as that and it's fine by me. Goodbye.
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AmarMecheri
vor 2 Tagen
I never said that you would have offended me. I never addressed you, nor will I ever do it. In what perspective? Greetings.
Amastan
vor 4 Stunden
@AmarMecheri

You have raised a number of important points that I would like to answer individually:

You said: "...the most important production in Berber, all sectors, is that of the Kabyles , including that of the most Kabyle of them: the anthropologist-linguist initiator Mouloud Mammeri whom "he quotes".

Who denies it? And this is an honor to the Kabyles who made all those contributions not only to Kabylie but also to all of Algeria and North Africa, and ultimately, to the whole world. Mammeri is an Algerian intellectual who is celebrated internationally. I think that this view of "we are the only ones who did everything" is rather immature and irrelevant. The members of the Amazigh Cultural Movement worked for the recognition and the promotion of the Amazigh culture across all of North Africa and I find it completely absurd that today, some people would reduce the importance of such a noble struggle to just this region of Kabylie. Today it's some of the fiecest Amazighophobes (Amazigh-hating racists) that are spreading the narrative that "only Kabylie promotes Tamazight, therefore it should only be taught in that region." Today millions of Algerian Amazigh-speakers from all areas claim the recognition and the promotion of the Amazigh language. There is a huge and vibrant Amazigh-language movement in the Aures area and also in the Mzab area, and smaller Amazigh-speaking areas are also beginning to wake up and produce books and other resources. I just despise this new Kabyle ethnocentrism that will lead us nowhere. No one needs it anyway except for a racist separatist movement and the fiercest enemies of the Amazigh identity (the racist Arabists and the violent Islamist extremists).

You said: "I think it would be wise to ask the Kabyles, who could explain the reasons for the separation by procrastination of the authorities concerning the transcription (in Arabic, Tifinagh or Latin characters?)."

Well, I am a Kabyle myself and I don't need to be a member of a separatist and racist movement to be considered as one by the members of that movement. Tamazight is being written in the Latin script. No serious person could question that in Algeria. It's over. It's solved. The rocket has taken off and there is no return as far as this is concerned. The issue of the alphabet is just a false issue that "opposition" politicians are using to justify this or that idea no matter how absurd it might be. The separatist and racist movement that claims the separation of Kabylie from the rest of Algeria has other political aims and doesn't exist to "save the so-called Kabyle language from extinction or from being written in the Arabic script."

You said: "We, Kabyles, want to move forward."

Oh really? And what do Kabyles like me want? To go back to stone age? We have already moved forward years before your joining this website. There are over 100,000 sentences in Amazigh (and in the Kabyle dialect) and Kabyles don't need a separatist movement to further their culture.

Your mentioning of "we Kabyles" denotes utter contempt to Kabyles who don't support or are against your hateful movement. Fortunately, you're just an insignificant minority in Kabylie. You make a lot of noise but you don't exist as a political force that's fully accepted and espoused by the society in Kabylie.

AmarMecheri
vor 3 Tagen - vor 2 Tagen
To Tatoeba's colleagues with my greetings:
Since I could not erase the old message that has been duplicated by a bad connection, I'm rewriting it to say that I probably will not be writing on this wall again. I apologize in advance for not being able to give more explanations than that of the seek for serenity.
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soliloquist
vor 3 Tagen
I don't know much about Pan-Berberism or Berber separatism. I consider Algerians (of all ethnicities) as a friendly nation for Turks and want Algeria to be a stable country. That's my point.

My question above was rather technical. It doesn't seem very useful to have sentences of the same language separated into two corpuses.

Ultimately, this is an issue to be settled between yourselves.
belkacem77
vor 3 Tagen
For more information about Kabyle Language, Kabylia (region) and Kabyle people:

1- Ethnologue : The most authoritative resource on world languages, trusted by academics and Fortune 500 companies alike.

https://www.ethnologue.com/language/kab
2- ISO: The International Organization for Standardization
https://www.loc.gov/standards/i...rench_list.php

3- Wikepdia english:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabyle_language
Please refer to the INALCO, HCA, CNEPLET, DLCA of Tizi ouzou, DLCA of Béjaia, DLCA of Bouira
__________

@soliloquist
I'm a Kabyle and I'm closer to berber languages. There is a huge gaps between these languages. Languages from the south are influenced by the the african languages, so they developped a foregh grammar structure. There is also a gap in pronounciation, verbs flexions, plural form, female form....

By the way, Turkish troops were beaten in Kabylia during the colonization of North Africa by the Turkish empire. The Turkish empire did never administer Kabylia. Turkish regard to Kabylia (East of Algiers) is the same to Armenia and Kurdistan. That's history. But today, happily, science such Siocolinguistics, linguistics .... should rule.

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soliloquist
vor 2 Tagen
>Turkish regard to Kabylia (East of Algiers) is the same to Armenia and Kurdistan. That's history.

I'm sure most of the Turkish people never even heard of the word Kabylia. I don't want to dwell on the subject by discussing Anatolian history with you here (and I don't think I need a history lesson from you on this subject). That's a whole different matter. I hope (I'm guessing so) this hostile attitude of yours is in the minority in Algeria.

Lastly, I want to ask you one thing. Are you offended by being called an Algerian?
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deyta
vor 2 Tagen - vor 2 Tagen
Kabiliye
Cezayir'de bir bölge
Alan: 25.000 km²
Nüfus: 7,576 milyon (2012)

sanırım bunlar cezayir'in kürtleri.
dağda yaşıyorlarmış, otorite tanımıyorlarmış, cahilmişler ve aşırı nüfusları varmış.

The Kabyle country remained as unconquerable as it was inaccessible to the Ottoman deys. They generally established a few coastal military settlements and some in valleys, where they enforced the rule of the Islamic Ottoman Empire. The mountainous core land, however, remained independent. Islam was gradually adopted through peaceful means, namely the Marabout movement. Some scholars argue that this is the reason of the Kabyles' indifference towards Islam.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabylie#Middle_Ages
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soliloquist
vor 2 Tagen - vor 2 Tagen
https://www.siwel.info/wp-conte...6-16455343.jpg

Tarzlarını diasporaya benzettim. Tuhaf... Türkiye'de insanlar pek bilmiyor bunları. Fransa'da yaşayanları da varmış epey. Fransa bunların suyuna bir şey katıyor galiba, Türk'e bakış açıları ve saldırı tarzları tornadan çıkmış gibi birbirine benziyor.

Araplara ve Türklere tepkilerini bir şekilde anlamlandırırım, ama Berber kimliğine niye burun kıvırıyorlar, onu çözemedim. Türkiye'de Kürt kimliğini bastırıp Kurmançi kimliğini öne çıkaran bir Kürt'e rastlamak pek mümkün değil. Bunların yaptığı ona benziyor.
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deyta
vor 2 Tagen

kürtlerin yanında olmaları siyasi.
çünkü Kabiliyeliler cezayir'den bağımsızlık istiyorlar.

The Movement for the Autonomy of Kabylie (MAK), founded in June 2001, has called for self-government for the region since 2011.
The MAK is re-baptised as "Mouvement pour l'Autodétermination de la Kabylie" seeking independence from Algeria

bir de şu var.

türkiye'de zazalar kendilerini kürtlerden ayrı görüyorlar.
zazalar bağımsızlık istemiyorlar.türklere daha yakınlar.

belki de kabiliyeliler berberilerden gerekli siyasi desteği alamıyorlardır.
bu nedenle onlara da düşman olmuşlardır.
belkacem77
gestern
Here we are, from linguistics to politics.
When we started our locale on Tatoeba, we were seeking to use these corpura to develop tools dealing with NLP, work on models: speech, morphosyntactic, grammar, semantics, pragmatics... but you draw us to politics!!!! What's a shame.

Take a look to your sentence and please try to analyze it:

- sanırım bunlar cezayir'in kürtleri.
dağda yaşıyorlarmış, otorite tanımıyorlarmış, cahilmişler ve aşırı nüfusları varmış.-

What's a shame!!!

That's colonialism spirit, and a sort of negationism.
Do you think we are excessive population with no authority? What ignorance.
You should take a look on history books but not those wrote by colonialist historians (and among them Muslims).

We are not the Kurds of Algeria (and we respecxt and support their rights) !!! We are Algeria, We are North Africa.

______________________
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deyta
vor 23 Stunden - vor 23 Stunden
thanks.

You are Algeria.
Why do you want independence from Algeria?

You love Kurds.
Why do you have an uncompromising attitude towards the Berbers?

I agree with Amastan in this discussion.
Berbers and kabyle need unity and integrity.
samir_t
vor 2 Tagen - vor 2 Tagen
@Solilloquist
If many Kabyle people do not like to define themselves as Algerians, it is because this country (Algeria) is defined above all, in its constitution and in the field, as being an "Arab and Muslim" country which is not the truth. The Kabyle are not Arab and do not have to be Muslims or anything else. Kabylia is a secular region that defends the right of worship. But what is even more important, is to safeguard its language, to teach it in a correct way on its land and not superficially anarchically as the Algerian State does at present.
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soliloquist
vor 2 Tagen
OK, samir_t. I got your point.

I also read these pages to get some idea about the current situation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Algeria

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F...ion_in_Algeria
PaulP
vor 5 Stunden - vor 5 Stunden
Is there a way to find all sentences that I haven't marked (either as "OK", as "unsure" or as "not OK")?
Ricardo14
vor 17 Stunden
1,000,000 English sentences on Tatoeba! Hooray! (1012022)
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CK
CK
vor 17 Stunden - vor 14 Stunden
Over 630,000 (63%) are on my proofread list.
https://tatoeba.org/eng/sentenc...s/show/907/und

Over 360,000 (36%) have audio.
http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentence...nly-with-audio
TRANG
vor 6 Tagen
**New language dropdown**

I'm working on replacing our current language dropdowns by new ones where you can search for the language.

The goal is to solve: https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/1651

It is deployed on the dev website: https://dev.tatoeba.org

The new dropdown is used in 3 places:
- search bar
- homepage for non-authenticated users
- page to add new language to the profile

Since this is a very important element of the UI, I would like to know how you feel about this new dropdown. Is it more comfortable to use or do you still prefer the non-searchable dropdown?
I will also need many people to test it, on as many different browsers/OS/devices as possible.

Thank you!
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sabretou
vor 6 Tagen
This is pretty great, and works perfectly for me on Windows 10, Waterfox 56.2.2.

A few thoughts:

- Since the entries are so large now, perhaps language flags can be incorporated as well? This may or may not lead to quicker identification for some people.

- Can a spellcheck be built into the system? I can foresee some people mispelling or using unconventional spellings for languages. For instance, if someone types 'Panjabi', it would be ideal if the results for 'Punjabi' are displayed nonetheless.

- Alternately, perhaps we can set 'hidden' alternate names for certain languages, to account for those alternate spellings. For instance, a lot of people know Persian as 'Farsi', but typing in Farsi shows no results.

- The present light grey highlight for matching text is hard to see. I would recommend using a different colour, maybe the default green that Tatoeba uses.
gillux
vor 6 Tagen
Great! It is definitely more comfortable to use.

A few comments:

The highlight is only shown when the language starts with the entered text. For example, using the English UI, typing "rus" highlights "Rus" in "Russian" and "Rusyn" but not in other entries, like "Belarusian".

The sorting of the suggested values could be improved. In the above example, I think "Russian" should show up above "Belarusian".

I can type anything that is not a language name and press the search button. The result is that whatever wasn’t a language name is treated as "any language". This is quite misleading. I think the form shouldn’t allow clicking the search button without a properly selected value as language.

On the search bar, the keyword field, the language drop downs and the search button use to have a consistent height. Now, the drop downs are bigger than the keywords field and the button.
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Aiji
vor 6 Tagen
Like you I've made the tests of the "stupid" by typing whatever in the language box.
Being a visitor, I looked for a word in "fr" into "any language" and I get the
An error occurred while performing the search. If the problem persists, please let us know.
message.
If the choice of language is reverse, that is searching for "any language" to "fr", no problem, the results are correct.
Guybrush88
vor 6 Tagen - vor 6 Tagen
As I suggested in the ticket (https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/1651):

Currently, with this new dropdown menu, when a user deletes the default option in the search's language, he/she sees the languages he/she chose in his/her profile and then every other language. My suggestion is: maybe the dropdown, at least for registered users, should be limited to the languages that a user chose in his/her profile when no specific language is selected, since it's likely that this user would stick only to such languages when searching for sentences, and, for all the other languages, he/she would have to type them manually to get them in the dropdown menu, since they're less likely to be used for custom searches

Edit = in any case, it works fine for me. I tried it on an Amazon Fire and Ubuntu
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CK
CK
vor 5 Tagen
With this new method, we do seem to lose the the easy-to-select just a few languages listed in our profiles, so we are required to type, or start typing a language name. I'm not sure if this really bothers me or not, but it is a difference.
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gillux
vor 5 Tagen
That’s a good point. This could make that new dropdown harder to use on devices without a physical keyboard, for example.
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CK
CK
vor 3 Tagen
Hopefully, at least some of our members will test this on the various devices they own.
TRANG
vor 3 Tagen
Thanks everyone. Based on the various feedback, I have made some changes which you can test on the dev website.

1. The dropdown list will now always open, without having to type anything at first. The only thing that may feel a bit strange is that the text input is emptied. I haven't found a way to keep the text AND open the dropdown list at the same time. I think it's still usable like this though.

2. If you don't select any language, it will go back to the language that was initially selected. In case you would type in something that leads to "No language found" and then click outside of the dropdown, the value you typed will be replaced by a valid option (whichever option was previously selected).

3. The highlight for the matching text is more visible (yellow background).

4. The results list in priority languages that start with the searched text.

Just to be sure, I'll give it one more week of testing. If there's no major issue and we overall agree that this new dropdown is more comfortable to use, it will be deployed next weekend on the main website.


Regarding the other suggestions that I have not implemented:

> Since the entries are so large now, perhaps language flags can be incorporated
> as well?

I had this in mind but ran into the issue that the dropdown list doesn't expand to fit the longest language name, at least I haven't yet found a way to do that. There are actually already some languages that are truncated and adding an extra icon will lead to even more languages being truncated. I think it is better to stick with names only until we find a solution to display all names entirely.

> Can a spellcheck be built into the system? I can foresee some people mispelling or
> using unconventional spellings for languages.

I guess this can be solve not exactly with a spellcheck but with some sort of approximate search. It's definitely possible but not something I would implement in a first iteration.

> Alternately, perhaps we can set 'hidden' alternate names for certain languages,
> to account for those alternate spellings. For instance, a lot of people know Persian
> as 'Farsi', but typing in Farsi shows no results.

For languages that have alternate names, I think for now we will need to resort to parenthesis: Persian (Farsi).
As we integrate more and more languages, we will definitely need to think of a better solution, especially if there are languages that have more than two names or if both names are very long.

> maybe the dropdown, at least for registered users, should be limited to the
> languages that a user chose in his/her profile when no specific language
> is selected, since it's likely that this user would stick only to such languages
> when searching for sentences

I'm not too sure whether this will really help. Let's say I've been using Tatoeba for a few days and I decide to register. I only have 2 languages in my profile. I want to search something and when I click on the language selector, I only see 2 options. At this point I might be wondering why did all the languages disappear? When I was not registered I used to be able to see all the languages.
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gillux
vor 3 Tagen
Thanks for the improvements, it feels quite usable already.

About the profile languages. How about just bringing them on the top of the list, like on the current dropdown? This way, I can still use the mouse or tap on a touchscreen to easily select one of my profile languages, while the person in your example won’t be confused by seeing only two options. You could also put a different background color for the profile languages, to make them stand out of the rest of the list.

Other than that, I find the interline space a bit too large inside the list. After clicking on the field, the drop down shows "Any language" + 4 languages (the last one slightly truncated), while I think there is enough space for 6 or 7 languages there. This would be a significant improvement if you implement what I said about the profile languages.
odexed
vor 15 Tagen
* SUGGESTION *

It would be great if we could search all the sentences contributed by non-native speakers for a given language. I believe it's not that difficult to implement.
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Aiji
vor 15 Tagen - vor 15 Tagen
Speaking of which, I realized that the (native) indication on the side of the author does not appear in the results page of the advanced search. I don't remember if it was mentioned before.

[EDIT] Oh, actually it doesn't appear in any page where several sentences are displayed.
Guybrush88
vor 15 Tagen
@odexed @Aiji I opened tickets for the things both of you said:

https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/1663

https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/1664
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odexed
vor 15 Tagen
Thank you.
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AlanF_US
vor 15 Tagen
Whether or not you think the functionality would be difficult to implement, you have a better chance of making it happen if you can explain what you want to do with it and why the current interface doesn't serve your needs.
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odexed
vor 15 Tagen - vor 15 Tagen
It would be useful for our corpus maintainers. We usually check the newest sentences but the old contributions usually remain unchecked. Moreover, sometimes it's hard to find 1-2 non-native sentences among the latest contributions.
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gillux
vor 9 Tagen
Not that I want to argue about whether we should implement this feature or not, but I’m curious about the way you proofread sentences. I am not a corpus maintainer, so I don’t know what it takes to proofread many many sentences.

As a native speaker of French, I almost only add French sentences, but it doesn’t mean they are free of errors. I regularly get comments about mistakes here and there. It’s mostly more about orthography than naturalness, but still. This makes me think that the amount of trust I’d put in a sentence has more to do with the number and quality of proofreads than the nativeness of the author.

So my point is: shouldn’t sentences be equally checked whether they are from native speakers or not?
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PaulP
vor 9 Tagen
> So my point is: shouldn’t sentences be equally checked whether they are from native speakers or not?

Certainly!





odexed
vor 9 Tagen
> This makes me think that the amount of trust I’d put in a sentence has more to do with the number and quality of proofreads than the nativeness of the author.

It is certainly reasonable, however I think the sentences created by non-native speakers should be checked first. It's not only because they tend to make more mistakes or create more sentences that sound awkward ( as well said in #1907470 )
It's also because non-native sentences that have an OK tag or that are marked as "OK" (i.e. proofread) look more solid and confident so they become more useful.
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AlanF_US
vor 8 Tagen
I agree. It makes sense to focus first on sentences by people who self-identify as having a level lower than the highest possible. They can make not only the mistakes that native speakers might make (such as misspellings), but other ones as well.
soliloquist
vor 4 Tagen
Note that another advantage of this feature is that flag errors will be easier to notice since they are mostly by non-natives.

I hope it will be implemented soon.
lorinc
vor 5 Tagen
Hello,

I wrote a script that generates a German/English Anki deck with text-to-speech audio link.

It is filtered down to whole sentences between 60-100 characters with 4-5 level of language owners on both sides of the cards.

Script: http://nbviewer.jupyter.org/gis...nce_deck.ipynb
Anki deck: https://ankiweb.net/shared/info/738703029

Cheers,
Lorinc
PaulP
vor 7 Tagen
Suggestion: In the section "Vocabulary that needs sentences" often appear wrong words, and of course they will stay there forever, because nobody will make sentences with them. It would be good if corpus maintainers could adapt this section.
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AlanF_US
vor 7 Tagen
At least two issue tickets have been filed regarding the fact that vocabulary items cannot be edited. I agree that this needs to be changed.
Guybrush88
vor 7 Tagen - vor 7 Tagen
There's this ticket about this issue: https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/1473

EDIT: There's also this ticket: https://github.com/Tatoeba/tatoeba2/issues/1238
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PaulP
vor 7 Tagen
Thanks for the info! I will be patient!
Aiji
vor 9 Tagen
Isn't there any way to download the audio files for a given language?
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Guybrush88
vor 9 Tagen
I'm pretty sure that audio files aren't downloadable. Not everyone has decided to let their audio files to be reused outside of Tatoeba, I think, so they're not downloadable
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deniko
vor 9 Tagen
Also, that would be quite a big file to download.

Just to understand for myself how many bytes the audio files can take on the disk, I downloaded 20 random mp3 for English sentence, and the size was 393,657 bytes.

There are 361,472 sentences with audio, so I'd estimate if you requested a downloaded file with just English sentences it would be around 6.6 gigabytes.

gillux
vor 9 Tagen
As a general rule, as long as you can listen to something, it can be downloaded. It’s just a matter of whether the website makes it user-friendly or not. On Tatoeba, it isn’t user-friendly (yet), and the reasons include what Guybrush88 and deniko said.
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Aiji
vor 8 Tagen
Let me reformulate less... lazily :)

It would be nice if eventually there would be a possibility to download audio sentences that are licensed for offsite use. There, I think that's better ^^

I'm not hardcore enough to spend my whole life right-clicking > Save as...
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deniko
vor 8 Tagen
I know that's not the solution you're looking for, but there's relatively easy way to download mp3 one hundred at a time, as opposed by one by one by right clicking and saving.

0. Install Batch Link Downloader extension for Chrome or something similar.

https://chrome.google.com/webst...mmolnn/related

1. In your tatoeba settings, set Number of Sentences per page to 100.
2. Do an advanced search finding only sentences with audio with some criteria (say, in English, belonging to a certain list, etc.).
3. You'll see a page with 100 first sentences matching your criteria.
4. Click on the Batch Link Downloader button in Chrome, specify you want to download *.mp3 files, and download them using the plugin.
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